Valve calls pirates 'underserved customers'

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Canai
Know who else believes their arguments are based on morality and law? The Westboro Baptist Church. Does that make them anything other than a group of nutters who are disconnected with reality, living in their own little world? Nope.

The irony of it is that this group you reference falls in the moral minority and do not conform to common law, much like people like you who think stealing is acceptable.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: JoshGuru7
My legitimate $50 copy of Bioshock would not function properly on my system due to the SecuRom rootkit disliking an .iso program of mine. This directly led to my pirating a copy of Bioshock (DRM-free!) and then choosing in the future to avoid the PC platform when it came to multi-platform releases. DRM is fundamentally malware to the end user and detracts from the value of the product.

Yes, Securom is known to have issues with tools and programs that may facilitate piracy. Its certainly a failing of the publishers to raise awareness of these potential problems, however, another obvious solution would've been to just temporarily uninstall the offending programs. There's little doubt DRM is invasive by nature, however, DRM is the effect of piracy, not vice versa.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Maximilian
The only thing people have learned is that you are a tool.

Again, coming from a petty thief like you and the usual suspects defending piracy, this means nothing really.

 

[JoshGuru7]

Originally posted by: chizow
however, another obvious solution would've been to just temporarily uninstall the offending programs. There's little doubt DRM is invasive by nature, however, DRM is the effect of piracy, not vice versa.

That's not an acceptable solution to me and I disagree with your categorization of DRM. DRM is a response to piracy, but it is neither an inevitable response nor the only possible response. Picking up a pirated copy of Bioshock was not remotely difficult and would not have been necessary if it had shipped without DRM. There are many examples (google "DRM free") of DRM free software that had estimated piracy rates similar to the expected rates if they had included DRM.

The way to completely eradicate piracy for any particular title is to require an account subscription, similar to MMO games. You'll lose part of your customer base that demands offline play, but you can afford to lose quite a bit when the alternative is a 90% piracy rate.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: JoshGuru7
That's not an acceptable solution to me and I disagree with your categorization of DRM. DRM is a response to piracy, but it is neither an inevitable response nor the only possible response.

I'd say upwards of 50% piracy rate for PC titles made it an inevitable response. I'm not sure how long you've been gaming on the PC, but forms of DRM like Securom (physical disc copy prevention) on the PC are relatively new and are effective in preventing casual piracy. Breaking Securom and other forms of DRM are beyond the capability of most casual pirates, which is where warez comes into play.

Picking up a pirated copy of Bioshock was not remotely difficult and would not have been necessary if it had shipped without DRM. There are many examples (google "DRM free") of DRM free software that had estimated piracy rates similar to the expected rates if they had included DRM.

Actually Bioshock's activation + .exe download + Securom DRM was one of the most effective examples of DRM preventing Day 0 and Day 1 piracy to-date. It took 2 weeks before it was cracked, which is exceeded the goals and expectations of the devs and publishers. Now there's no need to circumvent Bioshock's DRM as it has none.

The way to completely eradicate piracy for any particular title is to require an account subscription, similar to MMO games. You'll lose part of your customer base that demands offline play, but you can afford to lose quite a bit when the alternative is a 90% piracy rate.

And I don't disagree with that, I've advocated such measures many times, but lets not kid ourselves, online subscriptions tied to a form of payment are just another form of DRM and are actually more invasive than the ineffective forms of DRM people criticise. Put it this way, if you think pirates and thieves hate the DRM they can crack or circumvent, do you really think they're going to embrace forms of DRM that tie gamplay to their wallet?

Similar to your preference for consoles now, you've just exchanged one form of DRM for another, albeit the DRM on consoles is much more effective.

 

[JoshGuru7]

Originally posted by: chizowI'd say upwards of 50% piracy rate for PC titles made it an inevitable response.

I disagree that DRM is 1) effective at preventing piracy, and 2) the only reponse to piracy. For both of those reasons it is far from an inevitable response and I think that it is clearly failing.

I'm not sure how long you've been gaming on the PC

Very long.

forms of DRM like Securom (physical disc copy prevention) on the PC are relatively new and are effective in preventing casual piracy. Breaking Securom and other forms of DRM are beyond the capability of most casual pirates, which is where warez comes into play.

If by casual piracy you mean loaning your discs to a friend, then perhaps. If you mean preventing downloading a cracked torrent of the game within a few minutes of googling "software piracy", then clearly no.

Actually Bioshock's activation + .exe download + Securom DRM was one of the most effective examples of DRM preventing Day 0 and Day 1 piracy to-date.

What makes DRM effective is increasing sales. Do you have any links to support the argument that Bioshock's DRM led to greater sales then it would have had without DRM? Bear in mind the significant negative publicity surrounding Bioshock's DRM at the time.

Online subscriptions tied to a form of payment are just another form of DRM and are actually more invasive than the ineffective forms of DRM people criticise.

I would choose a subscription fee any day over having malware installed on my system, or any of the ridiculous install limit/activation limits included with some newer games.

Plenty of people are ok with subscription fees judging from the number of people who use Netflix instead of pirating DVD's, the number of people who use iTunes instead of pirating music, and the number of people who play MMO's like World of Warcraft. Micropayments and monthly subscriptions are the new black.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: JoshGuru7
I disagree that DRM is 1) effective at preventing piracy, and 2) the only reponse to piracy. For both of those reasons it is far from an inevitable response and I think that it is clearly failing.

As opposed to what? The honor system? Clearly that wasn't working either...hence the advent of DRM....

Very long.

So you should know piracy caused DRM, and not vice versa.

If by casual piracy you mean loaning your discs to a friend, then perhaps. If you mean preventing downloading a cracked torrent of the game within a few minutes of googling "software piracy", then clearly no.

Loaning discs to a friend isn't piracy though, copying and simultaneously using that copy is, and Securom prevents that. It prevents physical piracy, but its clearly ineffective at stopping the distribution of warez. And that's where other forms of online DRM come into play.

What makes DRM effective is increasing sales. Do you have any links to support the argument that Bioshock's DRM led to greater sales then it would have had without DRM? Bear in mind the significant negative publicity surrounding Bioshock's DRM at the time.

Tweak Guides PC Game Piracy Examined
There's 2 quotes there that directly address this about half-way down, its not just about sales, its about preventing a free alternative at release that would clearly be a more desirable option than one that costs money. The entire article is a great read if you haven't read it already.

I would choose a subscription fee any day over having malware installed on my system, or any of the ridiculous install limit/activation limits included with some newer games.

Well that's certainly your preference after a bad experience with DRM and an application known to have issues with Securom. I've personally never had issues with either Securom or activation limits, so for me they're still more desirable then having to enter my personal information and/or credit card for every game I purchase.

Plenty of people are ok with subscription fees judging from the number of people who use Netflix instead of pirating DVD's, the number of people who use iTunes instead of pirating music, and the number of people who play MMO's like World of Warcraft. Micropayments and monthly subscriptions are the new black.

I think you're confusing the people who paid for these goods/services in the past and then choosing a more convenient alternative with the people who never paid for anything to begin with. Also, I'm not sure where you get the impression Netflix, iTunes or any other subscription/rental service has decreased piracy rates for movies or music.

As for subscription games like MMOs and the lack of piracy, its obviously a model that works because the content is tied to payment, but its not something that will be translated easily or quickly embraced for non-MMO or offline titles. There's certainly some examples of this working however, like Steam or XBox Live, where you pay for the game online, its linked to your account and you get some updated content over time. I've said numerous times I'd fully support this form of DRM if that's what it takes to eliminate piracy.

 

[razor2025]

Valve does have some better business insight than rest of the industry IMO.

Piracy due to "I'm not paying" is not worth fighting for. You WILL lose in the end, as those who have no intention to pay at all, will inevitably find ways to circumvent whatever counter-measures you put in place. Companies will have to no doubt under serve (as Valve describes) real paying / potential customer with DRM and restriction used to combat these kind of piracy. Why go there? It's a lose-lose proposition.

There are many other aspects of game publishing that can improve the bottom line. The cited example in OP about Russia is a good case study. People want product, deliver product at the right time, product is accessible, profit! Instead of repeating the same thing that doesn't work, Valve was smart enough to find something else to make more money. This is really Business 101.

Now, if they'd only fix up Left 4 Dead... geez.

 

[JoshGuru7]

Originally posted by: chizow
As opposed to what? The honor system? Clearly that wasn't working either...hence the advent of DRM.... So you should know piracy caused DRM, and not vice versa.

I think you're missing my point about causation here. Knowing that A happened and then B happened does not give you enough information to claim that A caused B. There are multiple avenues to combating piracy and the decision of software developers to implement a faulty solution that does not work is entirely their fault. Blame the incentive process, not the end users.

It prevents physical piracy, but its clearly ineffective at stopping the distribution of warez. And that's where other forms of online DRM come into play.

We agree on this, and I feel that what you term warez distribution obliterates the issue of friends passing around CDs. Online account activation is extremely effective and removes the need to install malware in the first place.

Tweak Guides PC Game Piracy Examined
There's 2 quotes there that directly address this about half-way down, its not just about sales, its about preventing a free alternative at release that would clearly be a more desirable option than one that costs money. The entire article is a great read if you haven't read it already.

That article provides no data. The splinter cell quote simply speculates that some people bought the game who wouldn't otherwise (acknowledging adverse publicity), and you should be able to recognize the Bioshock quote as a PR quote attempting damage control on their DRM fiasco.

The speculation of the article that DRM malware is analagous to a door lock is simply an absurd comparison. It's a great tagline to equate breaking and entering with letting a friend play your copy of a game but this sort of ethical simplification really just devolves discussions into name calling and gives you somebody to blame the troubles of the PC gaming industry on besides the PC gaming industry.

Most importantly, the increased popularity of torrents in the last few years has made this issue completely moot. To further the terrible analogy, it would be like adding expensive and unwanted locks to everybody's front door to prevent thievery when every house had front windows left open 24/7.

I'm not sure where you get the impression Netflix, iTunes or any other subscription/rental service has decreased piracy rates for movies or music.

That's precisely the issue. The focus should be on increasing sales rather than decreasing piracy, a very important distinction. There is no data to support a claim that piracy and game sales are perfectly inverse, moroever anybody who buys a game after enjoying a pirated copy proves that this is not the case. That is not to say that piracy helps sales on the balance.

Online subscription services show that customers are very willing to subscribe to content that they feel is valuable, even though they could acquire it for free by other means. Because account subscription control is the only means of ensuring customers purchase the product, malware DRM is unneccessary and I believe it currently hurts the PC gaming industry more than it helps it.

 

[Shmee]

well, chizow, I still dont see any proof that the majority of americans feel this or that way about piracy, seems like ur trying to wiggle out of backing up your claims. While I am still in college, and have yet to take many courses, I can tell you what in a nutshell govt is for: keeping people from killing other people, and keeping people from taking other peoples stuff. Government is for the people, by the people(or at least should be) and that is why laws and governments change and so forth.

Again, you state these ethics as if they were fact. Truth is, its subjective. While I may have opinions which greatly from some "majority," they are opinions nonetheless and what you may think right I may think wrong. Also, your notion that Piracy = stealing = wrong != Piracy = wrong

For you must consider what individual people consider to be stealing, not what the government says it is. while the government defines law, they do not define right and wrong, however they may try. People need to make up their own minds, whether based on national law, or their individual beliefs and views.

Of course laws exist to protect interests of everyone(or so they should) or special interests. the latter seems to be the case with the issue of piracy. do middle class working people care about the the revanue of large media corporations? Mb, if they have some affiliation or investment, but I would venture to say usually not.

These laws help the producers, but do they help the majority? I dont think so. So I can agree with you that piracy is illegal in the USA, but it may not be forever. remember, just cuz something is not legal doesnt mean its wrong.

and of course I am entitled to my opinions, and there is no such thing as legal or illegal opinions, my dear big brother...my opinions regard how I think laws should be...perhaps I shall run for congress on a consumer rights base, and repeal said laws.

Now, I may believe you are wrong, and may even have an agenda, but I still will respect you, you are a fellow forum member, and have a nice OC in sig

And to say people deserve no respect, I believe that is wrong... might want to apologize to max, lest he have the last name veers, and crush you with his AT-AT (BTW, I own 5 of the six star wars movies, only saw eps III once, seemed to be enough)

Also, as I am curious, if you do not work for EA(or do you?) who do you work for? Care to confirm/dispute these charges? if not, I understand, it is your own business; I will be fair and understanding. I try to treat people with respect, and do the right thing.

also, I thought personal attacks were not allowed at anandtech? (which does not determine whether they are right or wrong, lol.) You and some other people seem to be doing it alot in this thread. Cant we agree to disagree?

 

[taltamir]

wow... admitting that releasing a game in a country 6+ months after its available in the US might drive them to pirate it instead of waiting? who woulda thunk!

but yea, people who would buy the game otherwise (ex: not a highschool student who doesn't have a budget for it) normally only pirate if there is a reason OTHER than money to do so.

 

[Provenone]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Interesting, nice to see another gaming company that gets it. I mean you can never stop piracy, unfortunately some people aren't willing to pay anything more than $0 for something they can get for free, but finding out why people download and changing your business model to accommodate this group is very smart.

/agree. people aren't all good at heart/flawless, nor can you make[/B em that way, but changing your ways to fit their needs/fiscal capabilities = smart move.