Valve calls pirates 'underserved customers'

[lupi]

step away from the EA troll.

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: NaOH

Originally posted by: Maximilian

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555

I thought you worked for EA or something... >_>

Yeah i thought the same thing a while ago. EA edited wikipedia in their favour i wouldnt put it past them to stick a guy on a few forums with 150,000+ members to try and improve their image... Nvidia did it.

who was the person they put in forums from nvidia

Rollo is his account name. He was banned when they found out he had something to do with nvidia and marketing, but later on he was allowed to return as long as it says in his sig that hes affiliated with nvidia. It was through some other middle man company though, AEG marketing or somthing, they used people to advertise positive stuff about various companys products nvidia was one of them.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: lupi
step away from the EA troll.

As opposed to you, just troll.

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: lupi
step away from the EA troll.

As opposed to you, just troll.

Still better than an EA troll.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Maximilian

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: lupi
step away from the EA troll.

As opposed to you, just troll.

Still better than an EA troll.

From the original idiot who claimed I work for EA, this means what?

 

[ShawnD1]

Originally posted by: Maximilian

Originally posted by: NaOH

Originally posted by: Maximilian

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555

I thought you worked for EA or something... >_>

Yeah i thought the same thing a while ago. EA edited wikipedia in their favour i wouldnt put it past them to stick a guy on a few forums with 150,000+ members to try and improve their image... Nvidia did it.

who was the person they put in forums from nvidia

Rollo is his account name. He was banned when they found out he had something to do with nvidia and marketing, but later on he was allowed to return as long as it says in his sig that hes affiliated with nvidia. It was through some other middle man company though, AEG marketing or somthing, they used people to advertise positive stuff about various companys products nvidia was one of them.

That's hilarious. I was going to jokingly post his name as a response because I thought he was a hardcore fanboy. I have signatures disabled, so I can't see anything about him being affiliated with Nvidia.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: chizow
Then don't make ignorant comments about topics you're not interested in? A good start would be acknowledging the following statement has absolutely nothing to do with the economics of piracy:

• If the reality of the situation were both ethically and fundamentally as easy as you are claiming then the problems surrounding it wouldn't last this long or be as conflicting.

So again, how do the economics of piracy back your claim above?

Both the people and laws show that they do not universally agree that piracy and stealing are the same thing. You have different people sharing different views and you have different laws for each of them too. Now, comparing and contrasting the two...well, isn't that what most of the ethical debate revolves around?

No, the majority of "the people" in the US do agree that piracy and stealing are the same thing, which is how legislation clearly defining piracy as such became law in the first place.

I believe that the economical side and the ethical side of piracy is mutually exclusive. If our government believed that piracy was stealing then they would simply be charging people with stealing. So, when Bob the college student is caught sharing 10 pirated songs on Kazaa he would be charged with stealing 10 songs or about whatever a single CD is worth rather than being fined for thousands of dollars in speculated damages. Clearly, the government does not believe piracy is as simple as stealing.

As far as the people are concerned and how they feel...well again, we seem to be getting a lot of mixed feedback about that one right here in this thread let alone the rest of this country. I'd say that is a pretty good sign that the idea of piracy and stealing being the same thing from an ethical stand point is subjective and debatable wouldn't you?

I want to know how many people in this country both steal things outside of the digital world as well as pirate digital material. Next, I want to know how many people in this country only pirate digital material and never steal anything. Lastly, I want to see a ratio between those two groups of people. I believe that ratio will show you that there are a ton of people out there who do not believe that pirating and stealing ethically stand on the same platform. What that ratio would also show is that there are a ton of people who would not be willing to pirate if they believed it was as bad as stealing. Again, it is the people that define ethics. Not the law. Therefore....

"If the reality of the situation were both ethically and fundamentally as easy as you are claiming then the problems surrounding it wouldn't last this long or be as conflicting."

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: chizow
From the original idiot who claimed I work for EA, this means what?

Means you suck.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
That's hilarious. I was going to jokingly post his name as a response because I thought he was a hardcore fanboy. I have signatures disabled, so I can't see anything about him being affiliated with Nvidia.

Yeah, i dunno if he still is or not, i never go into video as im stuck on a lappy with 8600GT. But last time i saw his sig it said somthing about being an nvidia focus group member.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
I believe that the economical side and the ethical side of piracy is mutually exclusive.

They are, which makes me think you don't know what you're arguing or you don't know what mutually exclusive means.

If our government believed that piracy was stealing then they would simply be charging people with stealing.

You mean, the way they have been charging people since the NET act was enacted into law in 1997?

• James K. Robinson, Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division
  
  "Mr. Levy's case should serve as a notice that the Justice Department has made prosecution of Internet piracy one of its priorities. Those who engage in this activity, whether or not for profit, should take heed that we will bring federal resources to bear to prosecute these cases. This is theft, pure and simple."

So, when Bob the college student is caught sharing 10 pirated songs on Kazaa he would be charged with stealing 10 songs or about whatever a single CD is worth rather than being fined for thousands of dollars in speculated damages. Clearly, the government does not believe piracy is as simple as stealing.

Sure they do, as has already been linked above with Senate and House testimony along with two amendments to law stating in plain english that criminal copyright infringement is "Theft".

And from the United States Sentencing Commission's Policy Development Team Report for the NET Act, explicit language directly lifted from sentencing guidance:

• The NET Act reverses the practical consequences of LaMacchia and criminalizes computer theft of copyrighted works, whether or not the defendant derives a direct financial benefit or commercial advantage from the act(s) of misappropriation. See 17 U.S.C. §506(a)(2)
• In the fraud and theft context, the Commission is currently developing alternative approaches to defining and calculating loss.
• The base offense level of 6 is the same as for fraud offenses, but 2 levels greater than the base offense level for theft. The loss table for theft, however, begins at $100 instead of $2,000. Thus, both tables yield the same offense level for thefts involving more than $2,000.
• Both the fraud (§2F1.1) and theft (§2B1.1) guidelines contain numerous SOCs, although many of these were added after the drafting of the original guidelines (some in response to legislative directives).
• These consumers are additional victims of a crime that is part fraud perpetrated against them, and part theft from the mark-holder.

I'd say the language of the law is pretty clear, piracy/copyright infringement is the same as theft in the view of the law.

As far as the people are concerned and how they feel...well again, we seem to be getting a lot of mixed feedback about that one right here in this thread let alone the rest of this country. I'd say that is a pretty good sign that the idea of piracy and stealing being the same thing from an ethical stand point is subjective and debatable wouldn't you?

No it just proves what we already know, that a large percentage of the population has low moral standards and cannot be left to their own vices without penalty, which is why laws are necessary to begin with.

I want to know how many people in this country both steal things outside of the digital world as well as pirate digital material. Next, I want to know how many people in this country only pirate digital material and never steal anything. Lastly, I want to see a ratio between those two groups of people. I believe that ratio will show you that there are a ton of people out there who do not believe that pirating and stealing ethically stand on the same platform. What that ratio would also show is that there are a ton of people who would not be willing to pirate if they believed it was as bad as stealing. Again, it is the people that define ethics. Not the law. Therefore....

You've just clearly outlined why you and others feel its important to distinguish between theft/stealing and digital piracy or copyright infringement. Others including myself have already clearly shown there is no distinction in principle, neither legally nor morally between piracy and stealing.

"If the reality of the situation were both ethically and fundamentally as easy as you are claiming then the problems surrounding it wouldn't last this long or be as conflicting."

Once again, knowing what you are doing is wrong and still doing it is very different from saying there is nothing wrong with what you are doing and doing it.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Maximilian
Means you suck.

Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and leave no doubt. - Abraham Lincoln.

 

[Shmee]

Originally posted by: Shmee

Originally posted by: WraithETC
I pirate games and then justify it because it pisses off the people who hate piracy. I will only stop if they embrace my piracy.

^ LOL nicely put. Data is Data IMHO. While I am not endorsing piracy or illegal activity, consider this:

If something is legal, does that necessarily mean it is wrong? Also, wont right and wrong differ from person to person depending on their own opinions? What is right and wrong? Is it relative, or absolute?

Think about all the things that have been done that have been legal that were wrong, or all the things that were illegal that were the right thing to do. I can think of at least several well known examples, in various countries...think of project Valkyrie or Oscar Schindler in Nazi Germany. What about the atrocities governments such as Nazi Germany themselves committed, that were legal?

So, to flat out say that piracy is wrong, piracy is stealing, so and so is a bad person, so and so is a hero...etc...is somewhat of an incorrect statement not because it "IS flat out wrong"
but because with morally ambiguous and controversial issues, people have different opinions on what is right and wrong, and not everyone shares the same morals.

While the developers of games and record companies, as well as the US govt would say piracy is wrong, that is their opinion. It happens to be illegal because the US govt is of that opinion, luckily for the developers.

So, when it comes down to right or wrong, this shouldn't be an argument because people have all sorts of different opinions on this. What should be taken into account is the possible consequences. (possibly being caught, retaliation by companies in the form of DRM, companies going out of business due to lack of sales)

Anyways, good for valve!

I think this thread has gone off topic kinda, from a post about valve, the video game company, to whether or not piracy is good/bad/illegal/cool/ethical...

I refer everyone to my epic post...chizow, while you are probably right about all the legal info stating piracy as whatever the legal stuff says it is, are you sure the majority of people in the US believe piracy is wrong? Where are your stats for backup? Remember, people need to decide what is right and wrong themselves, you cant just say, 'I believe it is wrong, therefore everyone either does or should.'

Here is a simple list of some things I believe to be wrong:
-Torture
-Killing people, in most cases
-The death penalty
-corruption
-people who do not think for themselves
-killing kittens, crabs, and lobsters, along with many other animals
-Genocide
-The drug laws in Singapore

Things I do not really care about as right or wrong:
-Internet Piracy(unless profits are made)
-Guns(so long as they dont shoot things that I like, or murder people)

Things I believe are right:
-Standing up for something
-love/sex
-kittens of course

 

[BassBomb]

chizow do you actually work for EA?

shouldnt you require a disclaimer like the nvidia boys?

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Maximilian
Means you suck.

Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and leave no doubt. - Abraham Lincoln.

Heh, yeah well if you go by that you shouldve stopped posting a while ago. EA should never have hired you, your a lousy people person and from what i can see you have convinced a total of 0 people that DRM/EA is great.

 

[frostedflakes]

He doesn't work for EA guys.

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: Maximilian

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Maximilian
Means you suck.

Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and leave no doubt. - Abraham Lincoln.

Heh, yeah well if you go by that you shouldve stopped posting a while ago. EA should never have hired you, your a lousy people person and from what i can see you have convinced a total of 0 people that DRM/EA is great.

The extremely pro-DRM arguments are just as ridiculous and shortsighted as the extremely pro-piracy arguments.

My shortlist:
1. Piracy is bad for the publishers
2. Piracy is good for everyone else
3. DRM will never work
4. DRM is bad
5. DRM is bad
6. I look sexy in a kilt
7. DRM is bad

There was a report commissioned by the Dutch government to examine the effects of piracy on the economy.

The report, which was commissioned by the government, estimates the positive effect on the Dutch economy to be around 100 million euros a year. While it is recognized that the entertainment industry suffers some losses, these don?t outweigh the positive effects of file-sharing...

...The researchers further found that people who download music and movies are not buying less than people who don?t. In fact, downloaders are reported to be more frequent visitors of concerts, and game downloaders actually bought more games than those who didn?t. In the music industry, lesser-know bands profit most from file-sharing, the researchers report.

from http://torrentfreak.com/econom...port-concludes-090119/ and before you dismiss it as crap due to the publishing website, they link to the actual report. Of course, if you don't read Dutch, you're not going to get very far with it

Oh, and that reminds me... Tages doesn't work in Windows 7

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
He doesn't work for EA guys.

Yeah, even EA isn't as pro-DRM as he is :laugh:

 

[Pelu]

99% Prick 1% consumer... I dont have to say more right...

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Shmee
I think this thread has gone off topic kinda, from a post about valve, the video game company, to whether or not piracy is good/bad/illegal/cool/ethical...

I refer everyone to my epic post...chizow, while you are probably right about all the legal info stating piracy as whatever the legal stuff says it is, are you sure the majority of people in the US believe piracy is wrong? Where are your stats for backup? Remember, people need to decide what is right and wrong themselves, you cant just say, 'I believe it is wrong, therefore everyone either does or should.'

I don't really care to go through it all here, but a few places you can start researching on your own would be natural law, moral law, universal law, morality and law, etc. These ideologies span across multiple scholarly disciplines (government, philosophy/psychology, criminal justice/law, history), across different cultures throughout time and transcend the oldest religions. Again, many entry-level college courses in any of the disciplines above cover morality and law in man, which ultimately find the source as man's ability to reason.

Here is a simple list of some things I believe....

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinions but that doesn't change the legality of your opinions. At the same time, you also have to realize laws do not exist only to protect your interests, they're also to protect the interests of society and others.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Maximilian
Heh, yeah well if you go by that you shouldve stopped posting a while ago. EA should never have hired you, your a lousy people person and from what i can see you have convinced a total of 0 people that DRM/EA is great.

Actually I can go back and read any of my posts and reasonably conclude someone might have learned something from it, unlike your posts, where someone would just learn you're an idiot.

As for being a "lousy people person" I tend to treat people with the level of respect they deserve, and people like you simply deserve no respect. What did you expect? A slap on the ass and a "Good Job!" when I clearly don't agree with your view of stealing software?

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Canai
The extremely pro-DRM arguments are just as ridiculous and shortsighted as the extremely pro-piracy arguments.

Except the pro-DRM and anti-piracy arguments are based in morality and law, and do not sanction, condone or encourage illegal and morally reprehensible behavior, like stealing, unike the pro-piracy arguments.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
He doesn't work for EA guys.

Huh, I swore he had stated that he did a while back.

Now why is he so rabid about DRM? He's partially spammed this thread, and not being related to EA his posts have no value beyond being some random guys opinion.


Back to the OP, given a proper understanding of piracy along with real facts any half sane company will go about figuring out how to squeeze just that much more money out of them, be it with better customer service and making sure valued markets (eg, Russia) get proper attention. Or go down EAs path and use hostile DRM in a attempt to increase first week sales and kill the second hand PC gaming market.

I support the positive approach buy not buying games with hostile DRM that will negatively affect me. Speak with your wallet.

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Canai
The extremely pro-DRM arguments are just as ridiculous and shortsighted as the extremely pro-piracy arguments.

Except the pro-DRM and anti-piracy arguments are based in morality and law, and do not sanction, condone or encourage illegal and morally reprehensible behavior, like stealing, unike the pro-piracy arguments.

Know who else believes their arguments are based on morality and law? The Westboro Baptist Church. Does that make them anything other than a group of nutters who are disconnected with reality, living in their own little world? Nope.

 

[JoshGuru7]

Originally posted by: chizow
Except the pro-DRM and anti-piracy arguments are based in morality and law, and do not sanction, condone or encourage illegal and morally reprehensible behavior, like stealing, unike the pro-piracy arguments.

My legitimate $50 copy of Bioshock would not function properly on my system due to the SecuRom rootkit disliking an .iso program of mine. This directly led to my pirating a copy of Bioshock (DRM-free!) and then choosing in the future to avoid the PC platform when it came to multi-platform releases. DRM is fundamentally malware to the end user and detracts from the value of the product.

Ultimately, I think that the music industry has outlined a workable strategy for the games industry to follow. Subscription-based Mp3 services like Rhapsody have grown even as music CD sales have dropped and the success of iTunes demonstrates that many consumers are perfectly happy to pay for the convenience of not having to pirate mp3s.

As broadband internet becomes faster we will end up with packaged media subscription services like GameFly that fight piracy by offering a large library of subscription titles. You'll be able to download and install anything in their library with the restriction that you will need to connect to their system while you play so the developers can be paid by Gamefly based on what you are playing per hour.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: JoshGuru7
and then choosing in the future to avoid the PC platform when it came to multi-platform releases.

This is exactly what they want you to do because they have no control over the PC platform. A console platform is a closed system where the corporation has all the control and the consumer has minimal. Fundamentally, the PC is superior to any console in every way. But, because no single corporation controls it, and consumers are free to mod it at will, they will push as many people onto consoles as they can.

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Maximilian
Heh, yeah well if you go by that you shouldve stopped posting a while ago. EA should never have hired you, your a lousy people person and from what i can see you have convinced a total of 0 people that DRM/EA is great.

Actually I can go back and read any of my posts and reasonably conclude someone might have learned something from it.

*snip*

The only thing people have learned is that you are a tool.

 

[JoshGuru7]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
This is exactly what they want you to do because they have no control over the PC platform. A console platform is a closed system where the corporation has all the control and the consumer has minimal. Fundamentally, the PC is superior to any console in every way. But, because no single corporation controls it, and consumers are free to mod it at will, they will push as many people onto consoles as they can.

I agree with you in principle but I disagree that the PC is superior to console gaming in every aspect. The flexibility of PC gaming is also a disadvantage not just when it comes to software piracy but also when developers have to make sure that their games run on favorable minimum specs that might be found in a midrange laptop for example. UT3 was a perfect example of this. Rather than designing it for the PC platform, Epic turned an extremely successful PC franchise into a flawed PC port of the PS3 version. You couldn't even bookmark servers until the first or second patch after retail.