Valedictorian's Speech About Christ Prompts Controversy

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JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,534
911
126
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
I dont get all the fuss... again.. Everyone wants to fuss about something. If hearing those words "Jesus saves" causes you to melt or something then sure, it shouldn't be allowed. But comon people, no one died, no heads assploded, no one bled out the ears after hearing it. They are WORDS. Do you people have nothing else to bitch about than something someone else says? It's her speech. Let her say whatever the heck she wants. If you are so traumatized by the words that it might cause permanent scarring to what brain you have, then leave. That simple.
Separation of church and state. It was a public high school.

The uproar about this is notable, but nothing compared to the uproar that would have been if she made a speech proclaiming Islam as the path to salvation.

I would have personally walked out than be force fed any religious BS during a graduation ceremony at a public school.

Of course the original meaning to that was to keep the state out of the church, not the church out of the state. This wasn't a public school matter. It was a student giving a speech. No different than those people who get on a box and shout the world is gonna end. They are on a public sidewalk aren't they?

People need to get a thicker skin and quit whining everytime they hear something they don't like.

Bull fscking sh!t. A commencement is no place for your stupid religious bullsh!t. :|

WOAH! I struck a nerve :D Then you'll love this..

I got a Ford Bronco... it gets like... single digits in gas mileage, and has a hole in the exhaust!

And I just got a Ford Expedition! 16 miles to the gallon at best! And I commute 20 miles each way every day!

Now will you deal? Or are you gonna blow an O-ring back there now?

Congrats. Perhaps you should get a bumper sticker that says "gas guzzling for jesus."
 

PurdueRy

Lifer
Nov 12, 2004
13,837
4
0
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Originally posted by: Googer
Originally posted by: yankeesfan
She worked hard enough for valedictorian, so let her say what she wants. She's probably had to hide her true beliefs in class to prevent her grades from being lowered by some radical atheist teachers, anyway.

"I think that was the most important thing to her, and I think she had the right to say it. She succeeded in becoming valedictorian, and that was her right," said attendee Carileen Bollinger.

:thumbsup:





So does that mean if I earn the right to be Val. I can get up there, give a speech about how Christians are ruining this country, they should all go to hell and need to convert to the "insert religion here" or suffer the consequences?


Hell no, not for 20 minutes and not at a public high school graduation ceremony.

Once again, I would say go right ahead. Sure, I would consider you full of crap, and wouldn't listen to a word you had to say, but you have every right to say it and I'd even try to stop a mobbing crowd coming upon you so you could say it. It's your right. I couldn't care less about what you say, but I'll defend to my last breath your right to say it.

no... he would not have every right to say it. you people take this "freedom of speech right" to a lunatic extreme. as has been said, freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded building. it also doesn't give you the right to spew hate, vitriol, or other inappropriate topics at a graduation ceremony just because you had the highest grades in your class. you have earned no such right.

i guarantee this student was bright enough to realize she was going to cause controversy with her self promoting speech. it wasn't her right, it was her wrong.

I do believe the KKK is protected by freedom of speech...

Granted I have never seen them try to give a speech in such a public forum...and would not want to see the results.

It was the schools job to set the rules for the commencement, they failed to do so.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
Originally posted by: PurdueRy
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Originally posted by: Googer
Originally posted by: yankeesfan
She worked hard enough for valedictorian, so let her say what she wants. She's probably had to hide her true beliefs in class to prevent her grades from being lowered by some radical atheist teachers, anyway.

"I think that was the most important thing to her, and I think she had the right to say it. She succeeded in becoming valedictorian, and that was her right," said attendee Carileen Bollinger.

:thumbsup:





So does that mean if I earn the right to be Val. I can get up there, give a speech about how Christians are ruining this country, they should all go to hell and need to convert to the "insert religion here" or suffer the consequences?


Hell no, not for 20 minutes and not at a public high school graduation ceremony.

Once again, I would say go right ahead. Sure, I would consider you full of crap, and wouldn't listen to a word you had to say, but you have every right to say it and I'd even try to stop a mobbing crowd coming upon you so you could say it. It's your right. I couldn't care less about what you say, but I'll defend to my last breath your right to say it.

no... he would not have every right to say it. you people take this "freedom of speech right" to a lunatic extreme. as has been said, freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded building. it also doesn't give you the right to spew hate, vitriol, or other inappropriate topics at a graduation ceremony just because you had the highest grades in your class. you have earned no such right.

i guarantee this student was bright enough to realize she was going to cause controversy with her self promoting speech. it wasn't her right, it was her wrong.

I do believe the KKK is protected by freedom of speech...

Granted I have never seen them try to give a speech in such a public forum...and would not want to see the results.

It was the schools job to set the rules for the commencement, they failed to do so.
it's ridiculous that the school would have to set up a code of conduct for a frickin valedictorian's speech, but i suppose in this day and age they need to draw one up and have it signed by the student, her parents, her dog, and attach a medical history to it that her doctor has to sign. :roll:

 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
Ok, I'll concur with that point. Freedom of speech does defend this. I think the school dropped the ball on this one, as this type of a speech should not be allowed at graduation, and certainly not for this long.


As for Dug, yes I know he was unbanned. I just want him to know I was one of his supporters :)
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Ok, I'll concur with that point. Freedom of speech does defend this. I think the school dropped the ball on this one, as this type of a speech should not be allowed at graduation, and certainly not for this long.


As for Dug, yes I know he was unbanned. I just want him to know I was one of his supporters :)
Enough with the dug sackriding. :p
 

thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
9,671
580
126
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
I dont get all the fuss... again.. Everyone wants to fuss about something. If hearing those words "Jesus saves" causes you to melt or something then sure, it shouldn't be allowed. But comon people, no one died, no heads assploded, no one bled out the ears after hearing it. They are WORDS. Do you people have nothing else to bitch about than something someone else says? It's her speech. Let her say whatever the heck she wants. If you are so traumatized by the words that it might cause permanent scarring to what brain you have, then leave. That simple.
Separation of church and state. It was a public high school.

The uproar about this is notable, but nothing compared to the uproar that would have been if she made a speech proclaiming Islam as the path to salvation.

I would have personally walked out than be force fed any religious BS during a graduation ceremony at a public school.

Of course the original meaning to that was to keep the state out of the church, not the church out of the state. This wasn't a public school matter. It was a student giving a speech. No different than those people who get on a box and shout the world is gonna end. They are on a public sidewalk aren't they?

People need to get a thicker skin and quit whining everytime they hear something they don't like.

Bull fscking sh!t. A commencement is no place for your stupid religious bullsh!t. :|

WOAH! I struck a nerve :D Then you'll love this..

I got a Ford Bronco... it gets like... single digits in gas mileage, and has a hole in the exhaust!

And I just got a Ford Expedition! 16 miles to the gallon at best! And I commute 20 miles each way every day!

Now will you deal? Or are you gonna blow an O-ring back there now?

Congrats. Perhaps you should get a bumper sticker that says "gas guzzling for jesus."

I intend to find one that says "Living the Amerrcan dream!"
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Was her speech tactful? Not really.

Was it wrong? Not really.

Are people going to complain? You bet'cha!

EDIT: Oh and I love the guy who says that Jesus told people not to spread the word in public... that's funny :p.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe


Ever heard of the judicial branch?

Ever hear of the Executive branch for pointless diatribes for $400 Alec.


But since you brought it up, most likely with about as much knowledge as your other statements have shown, you'd realize that for quite some time the rulings were distinctly different than they are now. Given how the justices do not like to trample on others before them less the same is done to them, there is a good deal of reluctance to make such changes to what is given down as judicial precedence. Even so there has been noted opinion papers of late that show the rulings may have tilted enough in the other extreme direction and a large enough movement may develop to again have a fundamental rethinking of the judicial decree on the subject.
 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
9,763
1
0
In response to quotes from Christian politicians meant to promote integration of church and state...

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine. New York: Everbody's Vacation Publishing Co., 1945, p. 362)

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. (Charles I. Bevans, ed. Treaties and Other International Agreements of the United States of America 1776-1949. Vol. 11: Philippines-United Arab Republic. Washington D.C.: Department of State Publications, 1974, p. 1072).

Why do Christians want the founding fathers to be Christians?
Is it because they wish the best for these people?
Hardly.
It is because they hope that by demonstrating they were Christians, they can justify their political agenda. Rather than wanting something new (the injection of Christianity into government) they seek to restore something they imagine has been lost.
Reality: nothing has been lost. It wasn't there to start with. Therefore the whole concept of "taking back America" is a lie. America was never Christian.

Recent Misinformation on the Concept of Separation of Church and State

Some Christians are currently arguing that the concept of separating church and state was not in the minds of the founding fathers, and that it is a recent and pernicious doctrine that is the result of Supreme Court decisions in the 1950's and 60s.
This simply isn't true.
Separation of church and state is not something the Supreme Court invented in the 1950's and 60's. The phrase itself appears in a letter from President Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, on Jan 1, 1802.
The Baptist Association had written to President Jefferson regarding a "rumor that a particular denomination was soon to be recognized as the national denomination." Jefferson responded to calm their fears by assuring them that the federal government would not establish any single denomination of Christianity as the National denomination. He wrote: "The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between Church and State."


http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm


It really bothers me that you people don't see that a Christian theocracy is exactly the same as a Muslim one. This is exactly why religion has no place in government- any integration means discrimination and eventually oppression based on belief rather than rationality. You can see it now, with local governments decrying that schools must teach creationism or intelligent design. Oppression of science is the same as oppression of man.
 

Leros

Lifer
Jul 11, 2004
21,867
7
81
I went to a small town graduation recently (public high school) and the ceremony included two prayers and every speech talked about God and Jesus. My friend and I were talking about during the ceremony and everybody around us gave us horrible looks like we were the devil.

It bothered me a bit, but there are so many Christians here that I have gotten used to being saturated with it.
 

thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
9,671
580
126
Originally posted by: Leros
I went to a small town graduation recently (public high school) and the ceremony included two prayers and every speech talked about God and Jesus. My friend and I were talking about during the ceremony and everybody around us gave us horrible looks like we were the devil.

It bothered me a bit, but there are so many Christians here that I have gotten used to being saturated with it.

And is it that sickening man? Look at what us Christians have to put up with here :p

Again, quoting a Mod:

"No. Deal with it."

AnandTech Modertator
:p
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Shove them up your ass.
Eeek that is too tough and uncalled for :x

Girl = Retarded
School = More Retarded

I wonder what the reaction would have been had the person talked about worshipping just God and avoiding "perversions" like the trinity...


 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,534
911
126
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
I dont get all the fuss... again.. Everyone wants to fuss about something. If hearing those words "Jesus saves" causes you to melt or something then sure, it shouldn't be allowed. But comon people, no one died, no heads assploded, no one bled out the ears after hearing it. They are WORDS. Do you people have nothing else to bitch about than something someone else says? It's her speech. Let her say whatever the heck she wants. If you are so traumatized by the words that it might cause permanent scarring to what brain you have, then leave. That simple.
Separation of church and state. It was a public high school.

The uproar about this is notable, but nothing compared to the uproar that would have been if she made a speech proclaiming Islam as the path to salvation.

I would have personally walked out than be force fed any religious BS during a graduation ceremony at a public school.

Of course the original meaning to that was to keep the state out of the church, not the church out of the state. This wasn't a public school matter. It was a student giving a speech. No different than those people who get on a box and shout the world is gonna end. They are on a public sidewalk aren't they?

People need to get a thicker skin and quit whining everytime they hear something they don't like.

Bull fscking sh!t. A commencement is no place for your stupid religious bullsh!t. :|

WOAH! I struck a nerve :D Then you'll love this..

I got a Ford Bronco... it gets like... single digits in gas mileage, and has a hole in the exhaust!

And I just got a Ford Expedition! 16 miles to the gallon at best! And I commute 20 miles each way every day!

Now will you deal? Or are you gonna blow an O-ring back there now?

Congrats. Perhaps you should get a bumper sticker that says "gas guzzling for jesus."

I intend to find one that says "Living the Amerrcan dream!"

:thumbsdown:I'm an American and that ain't my dream.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Originally posted by: Leros
I went to a small town graduation recently (public high school) and the ceremony included two prayers and every speech talked about God and Jesus. My friend and I were talking about during the ceremony and everybody around us gave us horrible looks like we were the devil.

It bothered me a bit, but there are so many Christians here that I have gotten used to being saturated with it.

And is it that sickening man? Look at what us Christians have to put up with here :p

Again, quoting a Mod:

"No. Deal with it."

AnandTech Modertator
:p
I'm a Christian and there is no way I would want that to be the subject of a valedictorian's speech. It's not the right place. period.

 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,219
0
0
I grew up in a Baptist church and majored in Philosophy; christians aren't bad people they are just weak-minded.

Rogo
 

MagicConch

Golden Member
Apr 7, 2005
1,239
1
0
I am curious if the valedictorian was Muslim and said all non-believers are going straight to hell would people still be saying she earned to say what she wanted. lol, they wouldn't be saying that to reporters that for sure.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,534
911
126
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Shove them up your ass.
Eeek that is too tough and uncalled for :x

Girl = Retarded
School = More Retarded

I wonder what the reaction would have been had the person talked about worshipping just God and avoiding "perversions" like the trinity...

No, it isn't. It was completely called for.
 

michaels

Banned
Nov 30, 2005
4,329
0
0
I personally don't believe in the easter Bunny or Santa Claus, or even the Tooth Fairy, if someone gave a speech on either my undies would not be wadded up.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
Originally posted by: michaels
I personally don't believe in the easter Bunny or Santa Claus, or even the Tooth Fairy, if someone gave a speech on either my undies would not be wadded up.

apples to oranges
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
In response to quotes from Christian politicians meant to promote integration of church and state...


Amazing as it may seem, Jefferson was just one of many people involved in the process.

Scholarly Commentary .--The explication of the religion clauses by the scholars has followed a restrained sense of their meaning. Story, who thought that ''the right of a society or government to interfere in matters of religion will hardly be contested by any persons, who believe that piety, religion, and morality are intimately connected with the well being of the state, and indispensable to the administration of civil justice,'' 6 looked upon the prohibition simply as an exclusion from the Federal Government of all power to act upon the subject. ''The situation . . . of the different states equally proclaimed the policy, as well as the necessity of such an exclusion. In some of the states, episcopalians constituted the predominant sect; in others presbyterians; in others, congregationalists; in others, quakers; and in others again, there was a close numerical rivalry among contending sects. It was impossible, that there should not arise perpetual strife and perpetual jealousy on the subject of ecclesiastical ascendancy, if the national government were left free to create a religious establishment. The only security was in extirpating the power. But this alone would have been an imperfect security, if it had not been followed up by a declaration of the right of the free exercise of religion, and a prohibition (as we have seen) of all religious tests. Thus, the whole power over the subject of religion is left exclusively to the state governments, to be acted upon according to their own sense of justice, and the state constitutions; and the Catholic and the Protestant, the Calvinist and the Arminian, the Jew and the Infidel, may sit down at the common table of the national councils, without any inquisition into their faith, or mode of worship.'' 7

''Probably,'' Story also wrote, ''at the time of the adoption of the constitution and of the amendment to it, now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.'' 8 The object, then, of the religion clauses in this view was not to prevent general governmental encouragement of religion, of Christianity, but to prevent religious persecution and to prevent a national establishment.



It really bothers me that you people don't see that a Christian theocracy is exactly the same as a Muslim one. This is exactly why religion has no place in government- any integration means discrimination and eventually oppression based on belief rather than rationality. You can see it now, with local governments decrying that schools must teach creationism or intelligent design. Oppression of science is the same as oppression of man.

I could be wrong...but a prohibition on making any laws based on religion would probably make it somewhat difficult to discriminate a person over his religious choices.

BTW, I hate to break it to you but state and local goverments have already been making rulings on the teaching of evolution/creation.
 

thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
9,671
580
126
Originally posted by: Rogodin2
I grew up in a Baptist church and majored in Philosophy; christians aren't bad people they are just weak-minded.

Rogo

Says the dude sterotyping an several million people together..

Says the dude who can't see past his own ass cheeks that trucks do have a purpose.
 

GPett

Member
Apr 14, 2007
121
0
0
That is the same reason I do not go to funeral services. I don't want to hear a sermon.
 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
9,763
1
0
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
In response to quotes from Christian politicians meant to promote integration of church and state...


Amazing as it may seem, Jefferson was just one of many people involved in the process.

Scholarly Commentary .--The explication of the religion clauses by the scholars has followed a restrained sense of their meaning. Story, who thought that ''the right of a society or government to interfere in matters of religion will hardly be contested by any persons, who believe that piety, religion, and morality are intimately connected with the well being of the state, and indispensable to the administration of civil justice,'' 6 looked upon the prohibition simply as an exclusion from the Federal Government of all power to act upon the subject. ''The situation . . . of the different states equally proclaimed the policy, as well as the necessity of such an exclusion. In some of the states, episcopalians constituted the predominant sect; in others presbyterians; in others, congregationalists; in others, quakers; and in others again, there was a close numerical rivalry among contending sects. It was impossible, that there should not arise perpetual strife and perpetual jealousy on the subject of ecclesiastical ascendancy, if the national government were left free to create a religious establishment. The only security was in extirpating the power. But this alone would have been an imperfect security, if it had not been followed up by a declaration of the right of the free exercise of religion, and a prohibition (as we have seen) of all religious tests. Thus, the whole power over the subject of religion is left exclusively to the state governments, to be acted upon according to their own sense of justice, and the state constitutions; and the Catholic and the Protestant, the Calvinist and the Arminian, the Jew and the Infidel, may sit down at the common table of the national councils, without any inquisition into their faith, or mode of worship.'' 7

''Probably,'' Story also wrote, ''at the time of the adoption of the constitution and of the amendment to it, now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.'' 8 The object, then, of the religion clauses in this view was not to prevent general governmental encouragement of religion, of Christianity, but to prevent religious persecution and to prevent a national establishment.



It really bothers me that you people don't see that a Christian theocracy is exactly the same as a Muslim one. This is exactly why religion has no place in government- any integration means discrimination and eventually oppression based on belief rather than rationality. You can see it now, with local governments decrying that schools must teach creationism or intelligent design. Oppression of science is the same as oppression of man.

I could be wrong...but a prohibition on making any laws based on religion would probably make it somewhat difficult to discriminate a person over his religious choices.
Yeah that's the point...


BTW, I hate to break it to you but state and local goverments have already been making rulings on the teaching of evolution/creation.

Isn't that what I said?
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Originally posted by: GPett
That is the same reason I do not go to funeral services. I don't want to hear a sermon.

And you could say an intolerant man does not have the courage of his own convictions.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,534
911
126
Originally posted by: GPett
That is the same reason I do not go to funeral services. I don't want to hear a sermon.

Well, at least when you go to a funeral service you know that you can expect to hear a sermon. When I go to a school function or a political function I expect to hear speaches pertaining to education or politics...not religion.