Valedictorian Rips Up Speech And Recites Lord's Prayer

[Incorruptible]

The problem with this student's prayer is that it is to a captive audience. There is no prohibition against students praying in schools, despite incorruptible seeing shadows in every article. Hell, the student could have thanked god for his own success or whatever. I don't know what the kid was trying to accomplish with his act of civil disobedience. Is his point that we don't have enough public-sanctioned prayer in schools?

From what the ACLU has to say on the subject: http://www.acluutah.org/SKYR3.html

The students had to be there either way though. What if he wasn't a Christian then would you have the same problem?

 

[Brainonska511]

The students had to be there either way though. What if he wasn't a Christian then would you have the same problem?

There is no issue with religion. The problem is he was leading a prayer. It does not matter if it was a Hindu prayer, a Muslim prayer, a Catholic prayer, or a flying spaggeti monster prayer. Student leading a prayer to a captive audience is wrong. Student-led prayer (in the sense that we are talking about, not some small group of students getting together on their own time) has been previously attempted by overzealous administrators in the past to get around the constitutional ban on school-endorsed prayer.

One case banning student-led prayer over the PA system at HS football games:
Sante Fe Independent School District vs Doe
Rabbi-led prayer at a graduation banned:
Lee v Weisman

 

[alzan]

You know, this thread shows some atheists are simply a bunch of bigots hiding deeply behind the "separation of church and state".

Hiding? No; atheists and agnostics merely understand the phrase "separation of church and state" better than theists.

That doesn't mean you have the right to keep religion COMPLETELY out of the public sphere -- which is what they want. I know they HATE THE FACT that people believe in God. Deal with it. I don't give a crap if folks believe in talking staircases... what harm is that beleif bringing on to me?

It can be kept out of the public sphere when it's done in front of a captive audience or at school events such as graduations and assemblies as another poster pointed out. I don't hate the fact that some lost souls believe in g-d; I actually think it's kind of funny that they put so much effort into believing in something that isn't there.

What makes is even more bigoted, is that they haven't offered no more scientific evidence than believers have offered -- the non-existence of God is nothing more than YOUR opinion, anyway.

As the poster below your post pointed out, your positive statement about the existence of g-d puts the burden of proof on you.

Atheist need to follow their own advice -- leave Theists alone and you will be left alone.

Nah, it's way too much fun watching theists like you stand firmly on the shifting sand of their faith.

By the way, does the attitude that you're displaying in this post and countless others have Jesus' Seal of Approval? From what I've read, you've completely misconstrued his message.

 

[Incorruptible]

There is no issue with religion. The problem is he was leading a prayer. It does not matter if it was a Hindu prayer, a Muslim prayer, a Catholic prayer, or a flying spaggeti monster prayer. Student leading a prayer to a captive audience is wrong. Student-led prayer (in the sense that we are talking about, not some small group of students getting together on their own time) has been previously attempted by overzealous administrators in the past to get around the constitutional ban on school-endorsed prayer.

One case banning student-led prayer over the PA system at HS football games:
Sante Fe Independent School District vs Doe
Rabbi-led prayer at a graduation banned:
Lee v Weisman

We both know if he wasn't Christian there would be very little complaints. I have a hard time believing these atheist groups would get involved if he wasn't Christian.

 

[Brainonska511]

We both know if he wasn't Christian there would be very little complaints. I have a hard time believing these atheist groups would get involved if he wasn't Christian.

No, *we* both don't know that. Please don't presume to speak for me. If it was a muslim giving a prayer, I'm sure there would be some crazy thread about how muslims are trying to convert our young minds with their graduation prayers.

The reason Christians get flack in *this* country is: we have a secular government where we have the free exercise of religion, but due to an abundance of Christians (far and above any other religion in this country) that always want to shove their religion down everyone else's throats using the power of government. I don't see other groups doing that. If you happen to see such, I'll be just as critical of those particular actions and groups.

But all of these thoughts are tangential. As I said:

There is no issue with religion. The problem is he was leading a prayer. It does not matter if it was a Hindu prayer, a Muslim prayer, a Catholic prayer, or a flying spaggeti monster prayer. Student leading a prayer to a captive audience is wrong. Student-led prayer (in the sense that we are talking about, not some small group of students getting together on their own time) has been previously attempted by overzealous administrators in the past to get around the constitutional ban on school-endorsed prayer.

 

[BlueWolf47]

We both know if he wasn't Christian there would be very little complaints. I have a hard time believing these atheist groups would get involved if he wasn't Christian.

While i don't prescribe to any religion, i have no problem with what he did. However, lets not kid ourselves. If a muslim had started reciting stuff from the quran people would be flipping out. Maybe not the students however.

 

[lotus503]

While i don't prescribe to any religion, i have no problem with what he did. However, lets not kid ourselves. If a muslim had started reciting stuff from the quran people would be flipping out. Maybe not the students however.

/thread

 

[justoh]

I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with this. So what? lol. wtf. He or she isn't speaking for the school. The only thing remotely interesting/amusing about this story is that a religious person would be valedictorian.

 

[TerryMathews]

/thread

I agree "people" would. Just like "people" are flipping about what he did.

The problem that some are failing to recognize are that there are some who support his right to speak his mind, whatever it is.

 

[Brainonska511]

The problem that some are failing to recognize are that there are some who support his right to speak his mind, whatever it is.

I have no problem with him speaking his mind. He just shouldn't be preaching when he's given a pulpit from the school. He can do his preaching on his own damn time.

 

[shadow9d9]

Christian nation.. haha... Amazing that this nonsense is allowed here.

 

[TerryMathews]

I have no problem with him speaking his mind. He just shouldn't be preaching when he's given a pulpit from the school. He can do his preaching on his own damn time.

You're allowed to feel that way, but traditionally the valedictorian of a class has earned the right to speak their mind to their class of peers.

 

[silverpig]

You're allowed to feel that way, but traditionally the valedictorian of a class has earned the right to speak their mind to their class of peers.

True. But a good valedictorian gives a speech that is inclusive and speaks to the entire class.

What if he went up there and spoke cantonese for 15 minutes? It's fine, he can do it, but he'd be a dick.

What if he went up there and just told inside jokes that only 5 people in the school would understand? It's fine, he can do it, but he'd be a dick.

You might not think there's anything wrong with what he did, but you gotta admit - he's a bit of a dick.

 

[TerryMathews]

True. But a good valedictorian gives a speech that is inclusive and speaks to the entire class.

What if he went up there and spoke cantonese for 15 minutes? It's fine, he can do it, but he'd be a dick.

What if he went up there and just told inside jokes that only 5 people in the school would understand? It's fine, he can do it, but he'd be a dick.

You might not think there's anything wrong with what he did, but you gotta admit - he's a bit of a dick.

I agree.

I am not endorsing his speech; only his right to give it. A difference that seems to be lost on many people.

 

[Brainonska511]

You're allowed to feel that way, but traditionally the valedictorian of a class has earned the right to speak their mind to their class of peers.

USSC decisions seem to run counter to his right to use his speaking position to proselytize. Effectively, the valedictorian is an invited representative of the student body by the school district. His speech implies school endorsement, which is not appropriate for a secular institution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v._Weisman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Independent_School_Dist._v._Doe

 

[justoh]

USSC decisions seem to run counter to his right to use his speaking position to proselytize. Effectively, the valedictorian is an invited representative of the student body by the school district. His speech implies school endorsement, which is not appropriate for a secular institution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v._Weisman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Independent_School_Dist._v._Doe

Except the speech wasn't arranged or even endorsed by the school... making a citation of the above about as relevant and appropriate as a religious speech at a graduation ceremony.

 

[TerryMathews]

USSC decisions seem to run counter to his right to use his speaking position to proselytize. Effectively, the valedictorian is an invited representative of the student body by the school district. His speech implies school endorsement, which is not appropriate for a secular institution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v._Weisman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Independent_School_Dist._v._Doe

Clearly, it doesn't as he actually ripped up the approved speech in view of the audience. This demonstrates that the speech was in fact endorsed.

I don't think there is any case law that is directly relevant to this situation; I looked.

We need something that spells out whether a prayer can be a form of protest.

 

[fskimospy]

Clearly, it doesn't as he actually ripped up the approved speech in view of the audience. This demonstrates that the speech was in fact endorsed.

I don't think there is any case law that is directly relevant to this situation; I looked.

We need something that spells out whether a prayer can be a form of protest.

When you think that through it would lead to a pretty absurd result as if all someone has to do is tear up their old speech in order to lead a prayer this creates a big problem. What you're basically saying is that all you need to do to remove the school and law's ability to regulate proselytizing at their public events is to lie to them about the content of your speech ahead of time.

 

[bshole]

When you think that through it would lead to a pretty absurd result as if all someone has to do is tear up their old speech in order to lead a prayer this creates a big problem. What you're basically saying is that all you need to do to remove the school and law's ability to regulate proselytizing at their public events is to lie to them about the content of your speech ahead of time.

Well the reality is that the overwhelmingly vast majority of valedictorians aren't total asses like this guy. So if one gets through every once in a blue moon, who really gives a crap? I certainly don't.

That being said, I would be happier if this kind of behaviour wasn't rewarded with national news coverage. It only encourages copy cats. This guy gets his 5 minutes of fame just by being a tard at his graduation ceremony? Pathetic.

 

[Incorruptible]

Well the reality is that the overwhelmingly vast majority of valedictorians aren't total asses like this guy. So if one gets through every once in a blue moon, who really gives a crap? I certainly don't.

That being said, I would be happier if this kind of behaviour wasn't rewarded with national news coverage. It only encourages copy cats. This guy gets his 5 minutes of fame just by being a tard at his graduation ceremony? Pathetic.

I doubt that would happen since most students are way to scared to do what he did. It would be nice if more of them could learn from this guy though. He did nothing wrong and he spoke out when he could have faced punishment.

I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with this. So what? lol. wtf. He or she isn't speaking for the school. The only thing remotely interesting/amusing about this story is that a religious person would be valedictorian.

The people that have a problem with this are screwed up. If someone gets offended by this then they have bigger problems.

 

[TerryMathews]

When you think that through it would lead to a pretty absurd result as if all someone has to do is tear up their old speech in order to lead a prayer this creates a big problem. What you're basically saying is that all you need to do to remove the school and law's ability to regulate proselytizing at their public events is to lie to them about the content of your speech ahead of time.

Okay, follow me here for a minute.

We have cited three cases, two that say that school organized student led prayer is illegal. Another says that students can exercise their first amendment right to protest in spite of school rules.

By tearing up his approved speech, clearly this prayer wasn't school organized. My contention is that his prayer is covered as a form of protest under Des Moines but as I've said repeatedly there is no case law in either direction regarding prayer as a form of protest.

That said, our form of government is (was?) founded around the idea that actions are legal unless specifically illegal so again in this instance I would say that unless someone can cite a specific law he broke he was probably within his rights. And a douche but then again most valedictorians are.

 

[justoh]

Again, the only real story here is how the education system is failing by producing valedictorians who are somehow still religious.

While this is troubling, there's no reasonable argument for the supposed illegality of what happened, unless it can be be proven that (1) his actions in fact were endorsed by the school or (2) that some kind of failure to stop him immediately amounts to tacit endorsement.

 

[TerryMathews]

Again, the only real story here is how the education system is failing by producing valedictorians who are somehow still religious.

While this is troubling, there's no reasonable argument for the supposed illegality of what happened, unless it can be be proven that (1) his actions in fact were endorsed by the school or (2) that some kind of failure to stop him immediately amounts to tacit endorsement.

I don't agree with your first point. The logical conclusion to your thought seems to be that belief in religion and intelligence are inversely proportional.

There are plenty of smart Christians and plenty of stupid atheists. Ever been to /r/atheism before the civil war? Idiots, idiots everywhere.

I do agree with the second point though.

 

[Retro Rob]

Nah, it's way too much fun watching theists like you stand firmly on the shifting sand of their faith.

By the way, does the attitude that you're displaying in this post and countless others have Jesus' Seal of Approval? From what I've read, you've completely misconstrued his message.

It's more entertaining watching bigots start frothing at the mouth when one mention of God is made in public because your Civil Rights were "violated".

Personally, I wouldn't say anything about God in that setting becasue it isn't the time nor the place, IMO... but I can't control someone's actions or decision to do so. Neither can you.

While this is troubling, there's no reasonable argument for the supposed illegality of what happened, unless it can be be proven that (1) his actions in fact were endorsed by the school or (2) that some kind of failure to stop him immediately amounts to tacit endorsement.

I agree. Even if they didn't try to stop him, live and let live -- we have bigger issues than something as minuscule as this, relatively speaking.

And again, God shouldn't have been mentioned, but since he did mention him.. let's just let the past be past.

 

[justoh]

I don't agree with your first point. The logical conclusion to your thought seems to be that belief in religion and intelligence are inversely proportional.

There are plenty of smart Christians and plenty of stupid atheists. Ever been to /r/atheism before the civil war? Idiots, idiots everywhere.

I do agree with the second point though.

Not inversely proportional to intelligence, but to knowledge, which are distinct. Of course it's a controversial entailment, but why wouldn't ignorance and knowledge (not intelligence) be inversely proportional? I know this might sound a little fantastical or hyperbolic, but surely the problem isn't some random kid praying to a captive audience, but rather that religion is still being taken seriously at all?

These people who get equal protection clause hardons miss the irony that it matters less that they say what they believe than that they truly believe it in the first place. Which is what lead me to that first point. You can't sue them into rational thinking. It has to be taught. In schools, for example...