VA passes 1st bill banning health care mandate.

[Zorkorist]

Is that what youwant Turin?

Because that is what you will get with socialized mdeicine.

As with all socialization platforms, the lowest common denomitor, thrives.

-John

 

[Tristicus]

Apparently we have to pass the bill to find out what is in it..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoE1R-xH5To

 

[Zebo]

oh, wahhhhhhhhh, the poor.....please someone think about the poor.....anyone who doesn't think about the poor is subhuman.....wahhhhhhhh

Their hearts are still connected to their brains, what you gonna do...

 

[Zebo]

Any form of a health bill is going to be horrible. The only bill taxpayers will support is one that reduces funding for medicare and medicaid. Why don't we give money back to the people so they can decide whether they want health insurance or not? Why do we force hospitals to treat people who can't pay for treatment? There is too much entitlement in the health care system we have right now. The only reform that should happen is one that reduces entitlement and allows for freedom.

Insurance Coverage is not care. Until we learn that there will be no reform and costs will sky rocket socialized, distributed, private, whatever.

Why?

Because Insurance companies and Big Pharma are corporations whose mandate it to make as much money as possible. Americans are kidding themselves if they think a sanctioned government monopoly, whether through drug patents or insurance company leverage requirements, they will ever volunteer to cut costs or give up insane margins. Most of which you don't even see as they expense them out via corporate expenses. They will bleed everyone dry and get your taxes to pay for profits that will come from those without insurance.

It's government protected racket plain and simple and until government unprotects them or regulates them we are all fucked relative to other G8s

 

[Zorkorist]

What do these things have in common?

Government
Insurance
Lawyers

Then, these things...

Bankers,
Doctors,
Liquor Store Owners,
Software Companies.

One of those things provides services to people.

The other feeds off people.

-John

 

[Acanthus]

Insurance Coverage is not care. Until we learn that there will be no reform and costs will sky rocket socialized, distributed, private, whatever.

Why?

Because Insurance companies and Big Pharma are corporations whose mandate it to make as much money as possible. Americans are kidding themselves if they think a sanctioned government monopoly, whether through drug patents or insurance company leverage requirements, they will ever volunteer to cut costs or give up insane margins. Most of which you don't even see as they expense them out via corporate expenses. They will bleed everyone dry and get your taxes to pay for profits that will come from those without insurance.

It's government protected racket plain and simple and until government unprotects them or regulates them we are all fucked relative to other G8s

You know that one of the very few bipartisan things in the bill is removal of anti-monopoly protection for Pharmaceuticals and Insurers?

 

[Zorkorist]

That provision is in there, not to allow more competition, but to consolidate their "subjects" into fewer companies, allowing for easier management.

-John

 

[Zebo]

Not hardly. Removing geographical boundaries and the anti-trust exemption is window dressing. They are not getting rid of nor shortening patents. They are not getting rid of huge leverage requirements. One of which makes them a monopoly the other a virtual monopoly due to barrier to entry.

 

[Zorkorist]

You would almost think our Banking System was designed to fail as it has, and result in fewer banks, and therby, easier to control.

-John

 

[Turin39789]

Insurance Coverage is not care. Until we learn that there will be no reform and costs will sky rocket socialized, distributed, private, whatever.

Why?

Because Insurance companies and Big Pharma are corporations whose mandate it to make as much money as possible. Americans are kidding themselves if they think a sanctioned government monopoly, whether through drug patents or insurance company leverage requirements, they will ever volunteer to cut costs or give up insane margins. Most of which you don't even see as they expense them out via corporate expenses. They will bleed everyone dry and get your taxes to pay for profits that will come from those without insurance.

It's government protected racket plain and simple and until government unprotects them or regulates them we are all fucked relative to other G8s

IIRC Insurance is run on around a 4% margin no?

 

[rudder]

Its got nothing to do with poor/rich, you cannot get rid of pre-existing conditions unless you get everyone into the sytem. All those sick people with horror stories of not being able to buy insurance even at ridiculous costs, you can't cover those people and not make others buy insurance. It breaks the idea of insurance. Lets go back to everyone having a few 100k laying around to pay for health costs after they get hit by a car.

Fuck, does this mean VA citizens are no longer mandated to buy car insurance to drive?

Look at it from the perspective of a fresh out of college 22 year old. They are started out, and don't feel a need for insurance. Under Obamacare it would be cheaper to pay the fine rather than buy health insurance. So they remain uncovered. There is no worry because if any illness were to develop, they could get insurance.

Meanwhile, the sick ones who are draining the pool are putting stresses on the system because that pool of money relies on healthy people paying into the system.

And you can't compare auto insurance to healthcare insurance. If it were the same you would just have to pay a copay to get new brakes or get the oil changed.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Income tax is constitutional. Healthcare mandate is not.

Since your such a constitutional scholar please show us where the constitution refers to income tax and healthcare and explain your interpretation. I suspect you have nothing more than broadbrush talking points you heard from wingnut radio, but heres your chance to prove me wrong.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Look at it from the perspective of a fresh out of college 22 year old. They are started out, and don't feel a need for insurance. Under Obamacare it would be cheaper to pay the fine rather than buy health insurance. So they remain uncovered. There is no worry because if any illness were to develop, they could get insurance.

Meanwhile, the sick ones who are draining the pool are putting stresses on the system because that pool of money relies on healthy people paying into the system.

And you can't compare auto insurance to healthcare insurance. If it were the same you would just have to pay a copay to get new brakes or get the oil changed.

The only difference between your Obamacare schenario and whats happening currently is the 22yo at least is putting something(fine) into the system. He goes uncovered in both schenarios and he gets treated if he becomes sick under both schenarios. Sounds like a net positive for the taxpayer, whats the problem?

 

[umbrella39]

Nice to see that there are still some who still can't see past their own fucking noses, continue to show how little they understand about health care/insurance, and how little they give a shit about anyone other than themselves. Pathetic.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

IIRC Insurance is run on around a 4% margin no?

If you believe that I have some real nice swampland, opps I mean investment property you might be interested in 🙂

Insurance company reported profits are basically what ever you want them to be, change a few actuarial tables and leverage requirements and viola report whatever profit you think is politacally correct. But, ohh look the other way while the top 17 execs at the big four insurance companies take a collective billion dollars in bonuses. And nevermind those millions in payments between each other that they claim as expenses, or the wildly exagerated reserves they build for future claims that are taken as expenses, or the layers and layers of highly paid flunkies that couldn't earn 1/3 of there salaries in another industry.

And even the "reported" profit at the 4% margin amounted to 12.5 billion for the big four in 2008, add that to the billions in bonuses and administrative fat and the hidden unreported profits and your looking at a large percentage of our annual healthcare spending.

Their weak ass attempt to convince the public that the insurance industry is a low margin industry is fucking comical, and only complete financial idiots and fanatical right wing zombies would be so gulible to buy it. I guess you think the Oil and Gas industry is low margin also 🙂

 

[IndyColtsFan]

No because the states have rights under the Constitution, and it's not clear that the Feds can force people to buy insurance as part of it's Constitutional prerogative.

What this means is that it will go before the SCOTUS and they will decide who has the ultimate say.

This is exactly what will happen. States will pass laws banning the mandate, the federal government will argue with them over it, and the Supreme Court will ultimately have to decide.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Since your such a constitutional scholar please show us where the constitution refers to income tax

Sixteenth amendment, I believe.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Nice to see that there are still some who still can't see past their own fucking noses, continue to show how little they understand about health care/insurance, and how little they give a shit about anyone other than themselves. Pathetic.

vs. those who have their nose in everybody's business and feel the need to dictate to them what they must do.

Hard to say which one is worse.

 

[spidey07]

Sixteenth amendment, I believe.

Very good. I don't think he's read The Constitution. Especially since he mentioned Federal Income Tax which is exactly what the 16th allows.

 

[spidey07]

I don't know if you understand insurance. An insurance company isn't going to insure someone for $100 unless it's profitable to do so. So if you have any preexisting condition, you are going to be screwed.

I've already explained this. HIPPA is a law that says they cannot deny you insurance or claims based on pre-existing conditions. You just have to make sure you don't let your group coverage lapse for more than like 61 days. That's why it's critical you ALWAYS have health insurance, otherwise if you're too stupid to do that then yeah, you may have a point.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Edit: Sry Spidey, I woke up grumpy and took it out on you. While I don't agree with you, you didn't deserve the venom. I apologize.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Sixteenth amendment, I believe.

Oh, how nice of you to try and do Spideys home work for him, he would have never replied as he doesn't do facts just talking points.

But you are wrong! Income tax was actually authorized by the Revenue act of 1861, 51 years and 4 pieces of income tax legislation before the 16th amendment.

Now since your defending Spidey and doing his home work complete the job and show us where the constitution prohibits mandating health insurance.🙂

 

[bamacre]

It is totally irresponsible, and just plain wrong, to force people to buy health insurance, especially at such inflated prices. If this bill gets passed and it doesn't help significantly cut the costs of health care, people are going to be pissed.

 

[spidey07]

Fuck off you ignorant piece of shit. Not everyone has the choice. When employment sucks (like now) it's not always possible to get another job fast enough...especially when many jobs require you work there for a year before you can be covered. It's not reasonable to expect people who earn just over minimum wage (which is roughly 41% of the nation) to have enough liquid assets to cover insurance themselves (which is often $600-1000/mo) on top of other expenses while out of work.

You're an evil, vile, worthless, pitiable, lying fucktard.

Anybody can get group insurance for 100 bucks a month, provide they're not an idiot and let their group insurance lapse. That's a fact jack. Remember stupid does indeed hurt and letting your insurance lapse is incredibly stupid.

 

[ElFenix]

Sixteenth amendment, I believe.

actually it was legal before that.


the constitutional source for the taxation power is article I, section 8, clause 1.

Now since your defending Spidey and doing his home work complete the job and show us where the constitution prohibits mandating health insurance.🙂

if there is a prohibition it's the 10th amendment. the conflict is that there isn't really a mandate, there is a tax provision for if you don't purchase the product. i think that's a unique question. usually when there is a tax to try to modify behavior it's to get you to not buy something.

of course, how is that much different from getting a tax credit to buy energy efficient appliances? what if instead of levying a tax for not purchasing medical insurance you got a credit for doing so?