VA passes 1st bill banning health care mandate.

[Pens1566]

Anybody can get group insurance for 100 bucks a month, provide they're not an idiot and let their group insurance lapse. That's a fact jack. Remember stupid does indeed hurt and letting your insurance lapse is incredibly stupid.

:thumbsdown:

 

[woolfe9999]

No because the states have rights under the Constitution, and it's not clear that the Feds can force people to buy insurance as part of it's Constitutional prerogative.

What this means is that it will go before the SCOTUS and they will decide who has the ultimate say.

The matter will ultimately be decided by the SCOTUS as an issue of the limits of federal power under the commerce clause versus the 10th amendment. If the SCOTUS decides that the feds have no power to issue a mandate, then the VA law is irrelevant. There would be no mandate anywhere, except where a state passed its own mandate law to opt in. A test case will not be heard until at least 2013 because the mandate does not kick in until then.

Either way, the VA law is irrelevant. If the fed has the power, the VA law falls under the supremacy clause, and if the fed doesn't have the power, the VA law is redundant and unnecessary. The VA law is a symbolic act, nothing more.

- wolf

 

[halik]

Rock on VA, excellent. Every state needs to do this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35801644/ns/politics-more_politics/

Other states have this kind of legislation in the works, but VA is the first where it has passed, and the governor will sign it.

That's fucking retarded /rahm.

So long hospital CANNOT reject you for not having insurance, you cannot reject health care insurance. It's got nothing to do with free choice, it's a basic free rider problem.

 

[halik]

Income tax is constitutional. Healthcare mandate is not.

Before you utter any more nonsense, I'll need to see any sort of backing for that claim.

 

[halik]

Anybody can get group insurance for 100 bucks a month, provide they're not an idiot and let their group insurance lapse. That's a fact jack. Remember stupid does indeed hurt and letting your insurance lapse is incredibly stupid.

100 bucks a mo buys you catastrophic coverage with ~2K deductible (My own catastrophic plan was 96/mo 1500 deductible, 25 year old non smoker).

Catastrophic plans ARE NOT universally creditable for preexisting condition:

http://www.washington.edu/admin/hr/benefits/insure/other-hlth.html

Also generally you're not eligible for catastrophic coverage if you have AIDS, diabetes and other such conditions.

I would do more research before you start making naive assumptions about the real world. When I left a full time position for Grad school (say laid off for sake of the argument), my COBRA was around $380/mo. Had i had diabetes or something like that I would have NO real option to insure myself on a realistic budget.

 

[Carmen813]

Anybody can get group insurance for 100 bucks a month, provide they're not an idiot and let their group insurance lapse. That's a fact jack. Remember stupid does indeed hurt and letting your insurance lapse is incredibly stupid.

Yah, find me this miraculous insurance. And it better not be worthless.

 

[spidey07]

Yah, find me this miraculous insurance. And it better not be worthless.

Google is your friend. Just google "group health insurance" and you can fill out a form and get a quote. It's dependent on state so I can't provide a direct link but I've done it many times before on this forum.

 

[spidey07]

100 bucks a mo buys you catastrophic coverage with ~2K deductible (My own catastrophic plan was 96/mo 1500 deductible, 25 year old non smoker).

Catastrophic plans ARE NOT universally creditable for preexisting condition:

http://www.washington.edu/admin/hr/benefits/insure/other-hlth.html

Also generally you're not eligible for catastrophic coverage if you have AIDS, diabetes and other such conditions.

I would do more research before you start making naive assumptions about the real world. When I left a full time position for Grad school (say laid off for sake of the argument), my COBRA was around $380/mo. Had i had diabetes or something like that I would have NO real option to insure myself on a realistic budget.

Look up HIPPA. You cannot be denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions if you maintain group insurance.

 

[halik]

Google is your friend. Just google "group health insurance" and you can fill out a form and get a quote. It's dependent on state so I can't provide a direct link but I've done it many times before on this forum.

The 100/mo ones you refer to are catastrophic plans.

 

[halik]

Look up HIPPA. You cannot be denied due to pre-existing conditions if you maintain group insurance.

I'm aware of that,
however the $100/mo catastrophic plans are not universally considered "creditable coverage". You'll have to pay a lot more than that for a regular group plan.

 

[spidey07]

I'm aware of that,
however the $100/mo catastrophic plans are not universally considered "creditable coverage". You'll have to pay a lot more than that for a regular group plan.

Bull fucking shit.

I was an independant contractor/consultant for a decent part of my career and my group plan that I went to a insurance broker (to find a plan that met my needs) was like 160 bucks a month. I could have gone even lower but preferred the extra insurance for that premium.

I am sick and tired of all the lies and misinformation regarding insurance and pre-existing conditions.

 

[halik]

Bull fucking shit.

I was an independant contractor/consultant for a decent part of my career and my group plan that I went to a insurance broker (to find a plan that met my needs) was like 160 bucks a month. I could have gone even lower but preferred the extra insurance for that premium.

How long ago was that?

I was in graduate school, paying for the cheapest catstrophic coverage I could find (United Health, incidentally). Started out at ~$75/mo in mid 07, ended at $98/mo late 09. Haven't made a single claim or anything.

Regular group plans without multi thousand dollar deductibles started around 200 for a 24 year old non smoker back in 07.

Google it; catastrophic coverage isn't the same thing as cheap group plan. Not everyone can get it and not all of it is creditable (varies from state to state IIRC).

Those plans are essentially priced for the long tail risk of healthy people (random stroke or you fall down the stairs and shatter something etc.), otherwise everyone and their mom would jump on it. $1500 deductible + 100 a mo = $2700 = $225/mo. That's lower than what a 50 year old smoker could get anywhere and I'm even ignoring the tax shelter of HSA.

 

[Pens1566]

I am sick and tired of all the lies and misinformation regarding insurance and pre-existing conditions.

This is how everyone that reads your bs feels.

 

[Turin39789]

If you believe that I have some real nice swampland, opps I mean investment property you might be interested in 🙂

Insurance company reported profits are basically what ever you want them to be, change a few actuarial tables and leverage requirements and viola report whatever profit you think is politacally correct. But, ohh look the other way while the top 17 execs at the big four insurance companies take a collective billion dollars in bonuses. And nevermind those millions in payments between each other that they claim as expenses, or the wildly exagerated reserves they build for future claims that are taken as expenses, or the layers and layers of highly paid flunkies that couldn't earn 1/3 of there salaries in another industry.

And even the "reported" profit at the 4% margin amounted to 12.5 billion for the big four in 2008, add that to the billions in bonuses and administrative fat and the hidden unreported profits and your looking at a large percentage of our annual healthcare spending.

Their weak ass attempt to convince the public that the insurance industry is a low margin industry is fucking comical, and only complete financial idiots and fanatical right wing zombies would be so gulible to buy it. I guess you think the Oil and Gas industry is low margin also 🙂

Thats a pretty common experience amongst execs of any industry near this size. It's deplorable but I doubt the dems(even if they were so inclined) would get any help across the isle on limiting ceo pay.

There are flunkies in every industry that couldn't earn 1/3 of their salary in another industry. If you told a doctor they couldn't work in their industry they'd be starting over, same for a banker. (I'm one of those health insurance flunkies).

They do need money to pay for claims from year to year, you can't expect to break even every year. But hell, I'm all for the public option if you want the accounting to be open to FOIA, but again, we apparently can't get what we want.

 

[Carmen813]

Bull fucking shit.

I was an independant contractor/consultant for a decent part of my career and my group plan that I went to a insurance broker (to find a plan that met my needs) was like 160 bucks a month. I could have gone even lower but preferred the extra insurance for that premium.

I am sick and tired of all the lies and misinformation regarding insurance and pre-existing conditions.

I've seen your link before. The only quote it gave me was $1200/month.

He isn't wrong. You can't just buy any insurance policy and have HIPAA protect you. It has to be considered a credible plan and to have a certain actuarial value. The problem is that this is very broadly defined, so what exactly constitutes "credible" will vary.

You have 63 days to regain coverage. For someone who is unemployed, that is a pretty tight window. The problem with pre-existing conditions tends to impact families who make between 20-40k a year the most. At these income levels you aren't eligible for programs like Medicaid, but you also probably do not have enough money from savings or unemployment to cover living expenses + the cost of insurance.

In NYS, the cheapest insurance I could find to buy was around $300 a month. That was for an 80% HSA...which would not have been adequate for my families needs. The cost increased substantially to find a plan that offered adequate coverage to people with serious pre-existing conditions (~$550/month).

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Very good. I don't think he's read The Constitution. Especially since he mentioned Federal Income Tax which is exactly what the 16th allows.

I haven't read the Constitution myself in a number of years, but even I remembered how the federal income tax came about in the Constitution -- through an amendment.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Oh, how nice of you to try and do Spideys home work for him, he would have never replied as he doesn't do facts just talking points.

But you are wrong! Income tax was actually authorized by the Revenue act of 1861, 51 years and 4 pieces of income tax legislation before the 16th amendment.

Now since your defending Spidey and doing his home work complete the job and show us where the constitution prohibits mandating health insurance.🙂

Actually, I am not wrong -- you were. You merely asked where income tax (by name) was mentioned in the Constitution and I pointed that out:

Since your such a constitutional scholar please show us where the constitution refers to income tax

You didn't ask for an entire history of it or how it originated. I think you need to read about the Revenue Act of 1862 as well -- you know, the one that repealed the income tax provisions of the act you mentioned and replaced it with a progressive tax. Even better, those income taxes were to be terminated in 1866. Want to guess why these were enacted? (By the way, Congress allowed the tax to lapse in 1872, not 1866).

About health care -- you asked Spidey to show you where it was mentioned that the federal government can't provide it in the Constitution. Guess what? It isn't. Does this sound familiar, however?

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

You can interpret the above as forbidding the federal government from having the power to mandate health insurance/healthcare. How you interpret it or I interpret it does not matter, however, as the Supreme Court is the one that will have to decide.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

actually it was legal before that.


the constitutional source for the taxation power is article I, section 8, clause 1.

The question was originally: "Where in the Constitution does it specifically mention income tax?"

The answer: Sixteenth amendment.

I am aware of Article I, but the power to tax was not in question; the question was if income tax was mentioned by name.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

IIRC Insurance is run on around a 4% margin no?

I don't know about the health insurance field, but for my company last year for every dollar of premium we earned we spent $.92 in expenses. So, we earned $.08 on each dollar of premium. The year before IIRC was $.96 for every dollar was expenses, so we only earned $.04 on the dollar of premium.

I'd assume that medical insurance is about the same.

 

[Pens1566]

I don't know about the health insurance field, but for my company last year for every dollar of premium we earned we spent $.92 in expenses. So, we earned $.08 on each dollar of premium. The year before IIRC was $.96 for every dollar was expenses, so we only earned $.04 on the dollar of premium.

I'd assume that medical insurance is about the same.

Last figures I saw were about 80% of premiums went toward actual payouts.

 

[Hacp]

You have 63 days to regain coverage. For someone who is unemployed, that is a pretty tight window. The problem with pre-existing conditions tends to impact families who make between 20-40k a year the most. At these income levels you aren't eligible for programs like Medicaid, but you also probably do not have enough money from savings or unemployment to cover living expenses + the cost of insurance.

Guess what? If health insurance is that important, clear all expenses to buy it. Move in with friends/siblings/parents/roomates. Eat only rice and beans. Cut all expenses to make room for the coverage.

 

[ElFenix]

The question was originally: "Where in the Constitution does it specifically mention income tax?"

The answer: Sixteenth amendment.

I am aware of Article I, but the power to tax was not in question; the question was if income tax was mentioned by name.

true, but it's a commonly held misconception that the 16th amendment is the source of the power to levy an income tax. i like to tote that little piece of knowledge out there from time to time.

 

[theeedude]

Guess what? If health insurance is that important, clear all expenses to buy it. Move in with friends/siblings/parents/roomates. Eat only rice and beans. Cut all expenses to make room for the coverage.

Yes, that's a recipe for economic recovery. Have people cut down on spending to support a group of leeches in the insurance industry.

 

[PokerGuy]

Yes, that's a recipe for economic recovery. Have people cut down on spending to support a group of leeches in the insurance industry.

So people should never have to prioritize and make choices? Damn it, I want that plasma TV, but then I can't pay rent. Clearly, the government needs to step in and take over the real estate industry, those leeches are bleeding us all dry 🙄

 

[umbrella39]

Yes, that's a recipe for economic recovery. Have people cut down on spending to support a group of leeches in the insurance industry.

He's another who could care less until it hits his pocketbook. It is funny to listen to all the single, childless posters telling everyone how cheap you can get insured for if you lose your job. Priceless.