V-6 engines begin long fade into history

[Stefan Payne]

Hell, I seriously doubt any daily driver NEEDS more than 150 hp or so.

Well I drive 175kW and I need it, not now of course, but it can happen.

How much someone really needs (or can use) depends on where he drives, if he overtakes somone (or not) and how much the car weights.

yes, of course, having a big, powerful engine is awesome. once I have the space, I'm going to get myself an old luxobarge, the bigger the better. however, driving it everyday would be ridiculously expensive, and frankly, environmentally irresponsible.

Bigger engines are not as exhausting to drive as smaller engines are.
Have you driven a 1.1litre with 50HP?

It wasn't a pleasure...

The times are changing, folks. it's time to accept that V8s aren't a right, they're a luxury. there will probably be a V8 option as long as we have ICE's, but it'll become much more of a status symbol than it is now.

Sadly, I have to agree, as I've heard BMW to dump their straight 6 and their plans to replace them with turbocharged I4 engines...

 

[Stefan Payne]

Hey, I got around just fine in a 39hp SEAT Marbella (fiat panda clone) hell, I drove that sucker on the autobahn

OMG...
You have my sympathy for driving that piece of shit on the German speedways...

I hoped you stayed on the right side...

 

[MikeMike]

I4's allow for better city economy than V8's, but V8's are optimized a lot to run at uber low rpm, at highway speeds, normally allowing longer gearing... However, as I4's get so advanced the trq curve is dead even from 1500 to 5500 the ability to make it run at low rpm, you will have eliminated the V8s superior highway... V8s save weight, as they are very light, with very little attached...

Idk, they are all advantageous, it is just how you apply it.

 

[exdeath]

It's irresponsible environmentally, no two bones about it.

Depends if you bought the "C02 and H20 are pollutants" kool-aid... what next, oxygen?

there needs to be a change

Like this?

I assume by "change" you mean government enforced "change" via threat of force.

People like you always say "oh I'm not a communist" but you say "people need to change" then when they don't change "oh then we need laws to force them to change". Do you want to drag me off to a ditch and shoot me in the back of the head with a Makarov when V8s are outlawed "for the environment" and I ignore such laws?

Technically it's called totalitarianism, but totalitarianism used to control economic freedom (eg: free market choice of any car you WANT, not necessarily need), it becomes an aspect of communism.

 

[DivideBYZero]

There is no law, lets not get off topic here. The i4 becoming standard doesn't affect anybody's right to by a V12, so get over it.

 

[Stefan Payne]

Sorry, but I don't know what's your problem with the I4??
You may (or may not) have noticed, that it's already the standard engine for cars around the world, just not in the US...

I don't know what the litre(!) gas costs in the US but here in Germany it was 1.389€uro/Litre today...
So that's 5,2233€/US Gallon and 7,5689$/gallon.

Any questions?

Oh and the average horsepower here isn't that high, it's just about 100-150PS (110kW).

 

[The-Noid]

As for bigger engines that can be turboed. Look at the Audi RS6.

For the powertrain detail of this latest RS6, the internal combustion engine (parts code: 07L, identification code: BUH) is what Audi claims the first all-aluminium alloy 5.0 litre (4,991 cc (304.6 cu in)) 90° V10 twin-turbocharged ("biturbo"), Fuel Stratified Injection (FSI), with a dry sump lubrication system. It has four valves per cylinder, with twin chain-driven double overhead camshafts (2xDOHC), and variable valve timing[11] for both inlet and exhaust camshafts. Charged intake air is cooled with two side-mounted intercoolers (SMIC)s. This V10 engine produces a DIN rated maximum motive power output of 580 metric horsepower (427 kW; 572 bhp) at 6,250 to 6,700 rpm, and generates 650 newton metres (479 ft·lbf) of torque from 1,500 to 6,250 rpm. Engine management is by way of two Bosch DI-Motronic[12] ME 9.1.2 engine control units, which act as "master" and "slave" concepts; two ECUs are required due to the high revs the engine can achieve. It also uses mapped direct ignition system with ten individual direct-acting spark coils, an electronic drive by wire throttle (Bosch "E-Gas")[13], cylinder-selective knock control, and cylinder bank adaptive lambda control, utilising eight lambda sensors.

A total of seven radiators, and four electric cooling fans are needed to cool the engine, and related components under the aluminium bonnet of the RS6.

 

[DivideBYZero]

How is the RS6 relevant to this topic?

 

[The-Noid]

Many have made the point that a i4 turbo = V6, V6 turbo = V8 ...

Only a few have made the point that you can continue to add a turbo to as many cylinders as you like. Take the RS6, take the SL65.

Performance continues to grow.

 

[exar333]

For longevity, reliability, and cost I would much rather have a 250-300HP V6 than a turbo or turbo-I4 making the same power. If I need more power than that, a V8 would be idea; less power and a I4 or turbo-I4 would be best.

I don't think eliminating the V6 will that useful, unless we get to a point where your only choices are (1) low-HP car <220HP (2) high-HP car >350HP (3) $$$$ to mod your I4 to a high HP/TQ level.

I am a fan of choice, and believe that a V6 can get great fuel economy too (look at the new GM engine in the entry-Camaro). Say what you want about the car being overweight, etc. but the engine is amazing. Lots of power and great fuel efficiency.

Turbos and twin-turbos are not cheap, and they require more standard maintenance than a N/A car, period. I don't want to hear any stories like "But my WRX has ran for 10 years without even an oil change!". In general, forced-induction vehicles are more expensive to make and maintain. That doesn't mean they are bad (I plan to turbo my V6) but it is not for everyone.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Many have made the point that a i4 turbo = V6, V6 turbo = V8 ...

Only a few have made the point that you can continue to add a turbo to as many cylinders as you like. Take the RS6, take the SL65.

Performance continues to grow.

The topic relates to mainstream engines being supplanted by smaller cylinder count motors that have forced induction for the purposes of economy, while providing the same or greater levels of performance.

Listing exotic metal with forced induction is not relevant to the topic, if it was we could kill the thread with the W16-QT. :awe:

 

[DietDrThunder]

I would say to not worry about it. For the majority of car buyers, a 4 banger will suffice, but there will always be an option if you want more. That is how the car companies make money. Let's look at the Cadillac CTS for examle. The base engine is a 286 hp V6 and has more hp than the car needs for most drivers. You want a little more umph, you pay $2,000 more and get the 304hp DI V6. You want even more umph, you buy the CTS-V with 556hp, and pay $12,000 more (plus $2000 gas guzzler tax). Does it cost GM $2000 more to provide the additional 18hp, no, it is mostly profit. Does it cost GM $12,000 more to provide the CTS-V with the V8 and 352hp more, no, the development costs were mostly in the Corvette, so I'd say mostly profit. I'd say as long as there is profit to me made by offering several engine options, you'll always have pleanty of options to choose from, hence the V8 and V6's will be around for a long time.

 

[DietDrThunder]

I am a fan of choice, and believe that a V6 can get great fuel economy too (look at the new GM engine in the entry-Camaro). Say what you want about the car being overweight, etc. but the engine is amazing. Lots of power and great fuel efficiency.
for everyone.

I have to agree, I have this same 304hp V6 engine in my CTS. The vehicle weighs 3861 lbs. and I'm averaging just shy of 20 mpg city, and 33 mpg highway. With DI, the variable valve timing and with the engines ability to shut down 2 cylinders when not needed, this car has the potential to get even better mileage if I were to pay more attention. You can just barely tell, and it feels almost like a transmission shift when the engine drops to 4 cylinders (at idle, when cruzing at a constant speed somewhere around 40mph, and steady highway speeds). I think Cadillac should have put some sort of visual indicator when the engine drops to a 4 banger, that way if you want to econodrive, you could watch for the 4 banger sweet spots.

 

[canadageek]

OMG...
You have my sympathy for driving that piece of shit on the German speedways...

I hoped you stayed on the right side...

heck no! with the sunroof closed and the gas pedal pressed to the floor, that baby was good for 150km/h, gps verified. no clue what the revs were, but it didn't sound pretty. I drove a good 200km straight autobahn like than, and did my fair share of left lane driving 😀

Depends if you bought the "C02 and H20 are pollutants" kool-aid... what next, oxygen?



Like this?

I assume by "change" you mean government enforced "change" via threat of force.

People like you always say "oh I'm not a communist" but you say "people need to change" then when they don't change "oh then we need laws to force them to change". Do you want to drag me off to a ditch and shoot me in the back of the head with a Makarov when V8s are outlawed "for the environment" and I ignore such laws?

Technically it's called totalitarianism, but totalitarianism used to control economic freedom (eg: free market choice of any car you WANT, not necessarily need), it becomes an aspect of communism.

where, AT ALL did I say anything about forcing a change? like I said, I want to have a big 'ol car like that someday. All I've been saying, more or less, is that daily driving a 200hp+ car is wasteful and unnecessary. Americans piss and moan about foreign oil, but driving a focus to work instead of a suburban? that's for dirty commies, right?

ps: why do you repeatedly compare me to a socialist? why is it so hard to accept that maybe you DON'T NEED a V8?

 

[brblx]

Depends if you bought the "C02 and H20 are pollutants" kool-aid... what next, oxygen?



Like this?

I assume by "change" you mean government enforced "change" via threat of force.

People like you always say "oh I'm not a communist" but you say "people need to change" then when they don't change "oh then we need laws to force them to change". Do you want to drag me off to a ditch and shoot me in the back of the head with a Makarov when V8s are outlawed "for the environment" and I ignore such laws?

Technically it's called totalitarianism, but totalitarianism used to control economic freedom (eg: free market choice of any car you WANT, not necessarily need), it becomes an aspect of communism.

P&N forum is a couple links up, chief. take your retarded ideals and complete lack of comprehension concerning what communism actually is and go frolic in the mud with your empty-headed brethren.

 

[DesiPower]

Not sure... I didn't read the whole thread, I might be beating the dead horse, but...

Even today Americans use a lot of SUVs and Minivans a 4 cyl is simply not enough for them. I hear ppl comparing US to European countries, but here the distances that ppl drive for work/leisure and the speed at which they travel is simply not suited for a 4cyl in the big vehicles, IMO such vehicles will burn a 4cyl in less than 100k miles.

Not to mention the road trips Americans take, trailers they haul and stuff they buy from Home Depot. A 4cly simply wont product enough torque for all these things and even if they do... again they will burn out much before a 6cly.

Now 4 cyls are more than adequet for sedans like Accord and Camry a 6cly is a luxury or a novelty in those vehicles, but as long as ppl are ready to pay those extra bucks, they will be offered.

Also there are the v6 like the ones in RAV4, fuel efficient and provide that extra towing power, IMO those cant be replaced with I4s, simply not enough torque.

V6 might be replaced by the electric motors. I4+Motor like those in hybrids maybe be equivalent to a v6..

New I4s today pack almost similar punch like that of V6s but lack some important advantages that V6 offers. V6 is a very importany bridge between V8 and I4s and I don't see them going anywhere in the near future.

/blog.anandtech.com

 

[BUTCH1]

My old-school ,cam-in block(aka pushrod) GM V6 delivers 22/26/32 MPG and has 200/228 available. Simple engine design =longer life IMO, why on earth would I want a I-4??

 

[wirelessenabled]

I like my inline 6 cylinder. 5.9 liter, 275 hp, 660 lb/ft torque from about 1500 rpm to 2100 rpm.

























Oh did I mention it is a Cummins ISB turbo diesel?

 

[exdeath]

ps: why do you repeatedly compare me to a socialist? why is it so hard to accept that maybe you DON'T NEED a V8?

The same reason it's so hard for you to accept that I don't and never will care what you or anyone else thinks I need, and that America is unique in that our wallet determines, on an individual case by case basis, our WANTS rather than you or government determining, deciding, mandating, and enforcing based on a subjectively defined NEED.

 

[Raduque]

The same reason it's so hard for you to accept that I don't and never will care what you or anyone else thinks I need, and that America is unique in that our wallet determines, on an individual case by case basis, our WANTS rather than you or government determining, deciding, mandating, and enforcing based on a subjectively defined NEED.

Dizzayum canadageek, you just got knocked the fuck out! :awe:

 

[brblx]

The same reason it's so hard for you to accept that I don't and never will care what you or anyone else thinks I need, and that America is unique in that our wallet determines, on an individual case by case basis, our WANTS rather than you or government determining, deciding, mandating, and enforcing based on a subjectively defined NEED.

how feeble a brain you must have to not actually be able to understand the concept of freedom.

 

[Zenmervolt]

OK guys, there's a link to P&N in the sidebar. If you want to rant about what is or isn't creeping socialism, please go there.

It's perfectly possible to think that a change needs to happen without actually advocating governmental involvement and it's also reasonable, given the track record of overzealous legislation, to be wary of any blanket statement about change needing to occur. Both sides have a point and if you want to discuss the political repercussions, then do so in P&N and let's leave the comments in here related to cars.

Zenmervolt - AnandTech Moderator

 

[DivideBYZero]

Not sure... I didn't read the whole thread, I might be beating the dead horse, but...

Even today Americans use a lot of SUVs and Minivans a 4 cyl is simply not enough for them. I hear ppl comparing US to European countries, but here the distances that ppl drive for work/leisure and the speed at which they travel is simply not suited for a 4cyl in the big vehicles (1), IMO such vehicles will burn a 4cyl in less than 100k miles.

Not to mention the road trips Americans take, trailers they haul and stuff they buy from Home Depot. A 4cly simply wont product enough torque (2) for all these things and even if they do... again they will burn out much before a 6cly.

Now 4 cyls are more than adequet for sedans like Accord and Camry a 6cly is a luxury or a novelty in those vehicles, but as long as ppl are ready to pay those extra bucks, they will be offered.

Also there are the v6 like the ones in RAV4, fuel efficient and provide that extra towing power, IMO those cant be replaced with I4s, simply not enough torque.

V6 might be replaced by the electric motors. I4+Motor like those in hybrids maybe be equivalent to a v6..

New I4s today pack almost similar punch like that of V6s but lack some important advantages that V6 offers. V6 is a very importany bridge between V8 and I4s and I don't see them going anywhere in the near future.

/blog.anandtech.com

1 - Speeds are much higher in Europe than the US, and distances are farther than you think. Commuting 30-60 miles each way every day is common.

2 - Before I bought an i6 i had an i4 that produced 244ft/lb of torque. Plenty.

 

[DietDrThunder]

1 - Speeds are much higher in Europe than the US, and distances are farther than you think. Commuting 30-60 miles each way every day is common.
.

I've found that it is typically the Europeans that don't have the concept of how large the US is. I've work with people from the UK and Italy and they are always suggesting these short weekend driving trips. What they fail to realize for instance is the state of Texas is larger in square miles than France. A couple of weekend trips they disgussed where going down to Corpus Christy (9 hour drive one way), or Taos NM (11 hours drive one way), or Destin FL (12 hours drive 1 way) and this is at 70 mph. I always say guys, you do realize that a 600 mile trip is almost 1000 kilometers? And I always get the reply, no, it can't be that far. My family went to Yellowstone this summer and I showed them the photos. They were all excited and wanted to plan a trip for themselves and were shocked when I told them it was a 23 hour drive at 75 mph.

By the way, according to this site http://driving.drive-alive.co.uk/ , the speeds in Europe aren't that much higher than here in the states.

 

[DivideBYZero]

I've found that it is typically the Europeans that don't have the concept of how large the US is. I've work with people from the UK and Italy and they are always suggesting these short weekend driving trips. What they fail to realize for instance is the state of Texas is larger in square miles than France. A couple of weekend trips they disgussed where going down to Corpus Christy (9 hour drive one way), or Taos NM (11 hours drive one way), or Destin FL (12 hours drive 1 way) and this is at 70 mph. I always say guys, you do realize that a 600 mile trip is almost 1000 kilometers? And I always get the reply, no, it can't be that far. My family went to Yellowstone this summer and I showed them the photos. They were all excited and wanted to plan a trip for themselves and were shocked when I told them it was a 23 hour drive at 75 mph.

By the way, according to this site http://driving.drive-alive.co.uk/ , the speeds in Europe aren't that much higher than here in the states.

I've driven in Texas (Houston & Austin area, my company is based there) & Florida and took a trip from Miami to Orlando by car. I could have done it all in the 2006 Renault Clio 1.4ltr i4 we used to have.

I've driven from Istanbul to Antalya along the Turkish west coast. I've driven from the south coast of England to Glasgow. I'm quite well aware what long distance driving is. I find Americans often think that Europe is just a collection of twee little villages connected by dirt tracks and cute little Inns. This is the modern reality:

If you want to drive 1800 miles, good for you, but in reality you would be better off flying. You'd only drive it non-stop as a test or because you hated yourself. Doing 75Mph in an i4 is no big deal, trust me, I've done it most of my life, 23 hours or otherwise.

And finally, the speeds are higher in Europe and your link bears that out, that's all I'm saying. Some were inferring that we all run around in i4's doing 42Mph "because that's all an i4 can do". Which is an incorrect assumption.

The i4 is a fine configuration. The issue is in the public's head. For example, the 3800 engine used in the Impala. I had a rental Impala with this motor. It produced 180Hp and a similar amount of torque( cannot find a number, so I'm assuming no more than 200lb/ft) and could barely pull skin off milk, let alone move the barge it had been shoe-horned into. Fast forward to our i4 Diesel and that has 180Hp and 260ft/lb torque. Far outstripping a V6 in performance with respect to its cylinder capacity, 1995cc vs 3800cc, yet producing the same amount of power and vastly more torque. So, in this case, which is better? The V6 or i4?