Using the neighbours internet

[rh71]

Originally posted by: rh71
how easy is it for someone to get your passwords etc. if you use wifi? I know nothing is 100% secure but is it easily capturable?

I use wifi at home and log in to many sites but I also am the owner of the router and am 99.9% sure nobody is trying to grab what I type. Not so sure about others who leave their wifi open... am I just being too paranoid?

ok, thanks for the answer everyone... appreciate it.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: funkymatt

Originally posted by: QueBert
they should make it illegal for people to broadcast their unsecure wireless signal into your house, I battled with my neighbor more today because my wireless adapter is once again auto connecting to his network without asking me because it's the strongest signal it picks up. I'm thinking about calling the cops on him

screw that
if it's a dd-wrt capable device, reflash the firmware, jack up the antenna output and call the fcc. :laugh:

or just rename the ssid as the pedohotspot

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: mugs
If you think there is nothing morally wrong with using your neighbor's Internet, just tell them you're doing it. They obviously won't care, since there is nothing wrong with doing it.

Problem solved.

I've got a water fountain out in my front yard. This water fountain spews Merlot or Bawls or whatever you want it to. I pay for every single ounce that comes out of this fountain. I make ZERO effort to thwart people drinking from it (WPA?), I could have put it inside (wired vs. wireless) or taken the free "BUY MAGIC FOUNTAIN, GET ARMY OF PITBULLS" to guard it (WPA!), but I choose to leave it accessible to everyone. People are using it out of my negligence. IMO, leeching Wi-Fi is just like the "Your apple tree is partly in my yard, I get to pick fruit off whatever is in my yard" argument someone posted earlier in the thread.

I leech off Wi-Fi because I live in an apartment building. I only download larger files (videos, etc.) using a download manager during the wee hours of the night. No automatic updates run on my computer, I try to be as minimal a load on their network as possible. I'm getting my own internet soon, and will enable WPA2 on my router as soon as it is set up.

I have flower pots on my front porch. I don't do anything to secure them. Amazingly, they've never been stolen. :Q

My fountain also has faucets leading to every house on my street.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Colt45
People raping your wife is the punishment for being to lazy/ignorant to lock the doors.

Fixed.

Just because something is not locked or secured does NOT make it legal nor ethical to take or use without permission of the owner.

Not a single one of you would like someone to use/take/abuse something of yours without your permission. Therefore you have no ethical excuse for doing the same to others.

Now if you PURPOSELY leave your wifi open and invite others to use it, you are giving permission. That does not excuse you assuming that every other open wifi is the same anymore than every unlocked house is open for you to roam.

The golden rule is not ..."as your cynical, excuse making ass would expect others to treat you" ... it's "as you would like them to treat you."

I think the forums have officially hit a new low. Way to go on comparing leeching wireless internet to rape :roll:

I don't get it. If you don't want people to use your bandwidth, secure your network. Anyone who disagrees is a white knighting dickhead or too lazy to take the 10 seconds required to secure their network.

Leaving the network insecure is an invitation to use it. This is NOT the same as entering someone's home. Many wireless configurations will automatically connect to insecure networks. Your feet will not automatically take you into your neighbor's house. It shouldn't be my responsibility to mess with my configuration just because your router is open.

When you make the choice to leave your router open, you're giving people permission to use it. It's as simple as that. The law is wrong, in this case. This is the equivalent of leaving your door open when you leave for the day and having someone come in to steal a penny. Most people will never know the difference. Yes, it is illegal, but it's ridiculous to bitch and moan about losing that penny if you leave your door unlocked.

Christ, I can't tell whether the people attacking leeching are fake posters or legitimate retards.

You can make all the insults you want, but someone leaving an item unsecured does NOT legally NOR ethically give you the right to take it, use it, or abuse it without permission. Which is why my rape analogy FITS here. Because if leaving something unlocked gives others the legal right to use it, that would apply to everything. Yes, the rape thing was extreme, but it was used to make a point.

It does not matter that your use may not be noticed. It's still unethical and illegal to use a signal and bandwidth that is NOT yours, be it secured or unsecured. I would notice a loss of bandwidth. I notice if I have one or more people on my network surfing the web while I am using it. Especially if I am trying to download something at the time.

EVERYONE forgets to lock their property at one time or another. You KNOW you have. If you would not like people entering and using your property when you forget to lock it (this is not about what you'd expect, but what you would WANT), then you have NO ethical standing to do the same to others.

Leaving something unlocked is NOT a legal or ethical invitation to use a thing without permission. Period.

Just as an unescorted wife is not an invitation to fsck her, an unlocked bike is not an invitation to ride it and an unlocked house is not an invitation for a hobo to come in and dirty dick your bologna, and unsecured network is NOT an invitation to use it. That invitation can ONLY come from express consent.

The law is clearly NOT wrong. No matter what the property or service is, it is RIGHTLY both unethical AND illegal to use the property of others without their permission.

Look, why do locks exist in the first place? To make things non-communal? No. They exist only to stop theives and intruders. If people respected the property of others, we would not need to lock anything.

So... if you feel you have a right to use any unlocked, unsecured thing, YOU are essentially the reason locks exist... and what does that make you?

 

[funkymatt]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Colt45
People raping your wife is the punishment for being to lazy/ignorant to lock the doors.

Fixed.

Just because something is not locked or secured does NOT make it legal nor ethical to take or use without permission of the owner.

Not a single one of you would like someone to use/take/abuse something of yours without your permission. Therefore you have no ethical excuse for doing the same to others.

Now if you PURPOSELY leave your wifi open and invite others to use it, you are giving permission. That does not excuse you assuming that every other open wifi is the same anymore than every unlocked house is open for you to roam.

The golden rule is not ..."as your cynical, excuse making ass would expect others to treat you" ... it's "as you would like them to treat you."

I think the forums have officially hit a new low. Way to go on comparing leeching wireless internet to rape :roll:

I don't get it. If you don't want people to use your bandwidth, secure your network. Anyone who disagrees is a white knighting dickhead or too lazy to take the 10 seconds required to secure their network.

Leaving the network insecure is an invitation to use it. This is NOT the same as entering someone's home. Many wireless configurations will automatically connect to insecure networks. Your feet will not automatically take you into your neighbor's house. It shouldn't be my responsibility to mess with my configuration just because your router is open.

When you make the choice to leave your router open, you're giving people permission to use it. It's as simple as that. The law is wrong, in this case. This is the equivalent of leaving your door open when you leave for the day and having someone come in to steal a penny. Most people will never know the difference. Yes, it is illegal, but it's ridiculous to bitch and moan about losing that penny if you leave your door unlocked.

Christ, I can't tell whether the people attacking leeching are fake posters or legitimate retards.

You can make all the insults you want, but someone leaving an item unsecured does NOT legally NOR ethically give you the right to take it, use it, or abuse it without permission. Which is why my rape analogy FITS here. Because if leaving something unlocked gives others the legal right to use it, that would apply to everything. Yes, the rape thing was extreme, but it was used to make a point.

It does not matter that your use may not be noticed. It's still unethical and illegal to use a signal and bandwidth that is NOT yours, be it secured or unsecured. I would notice a loss of bandwidth. I notice if I have one or more people on my network surfing the web while I am using it. Especially if I am trying to download something at the time.

EVERYONE forgets to lock their property at one time or another. You KNOW you have. If you would not like people entering and using your property when you forget to lock it (this is not about what you'd expect, but what you would WANT), then you have NO ethical standing to do the same to others.

Leaving something unlocked is NOT a legal or ethical invitation to use a thing without permission. Period.

Just as an unescorted wife is not an invitation to fsck her, an unlocked bike is not an invitation to ride it and an unlocked house is not an invitation for a hobo to come in and dirty dick your bologna, and unsecured network is NOT an invitation to use it. That invitation can ONLY come from express consent.

The law is clearly NOT wrong. No matter what the property or service is, it is RIGHTLY both unethical AND illegal to use the property of others without their permission.

Look, why do locks exist in the first place? To make things non-communal? No. They exist only to stop theives and intruders. If people respected the property of others, we would not need to lock anything.

So... if you feel you have a right to use any unlocked, unsecured thing, YOU are essentially the reason locks exist... and what does that make you?

Locks exist because they keep honest people honest. if someone wants to get into your house, they will break a window or unlatch a sliding glass door.

The fruit tree analogy is absolutely perfect for the wifi problem. You associating this to stealing physical property is ridiculous. In addition to this, there are no laws regarding wireless signals in his country so it's not illegal.

 

[swbsam]

Stop being a pussy, everyone does it. In fact, wifi's popularity is partly due to people's ability to "steal" free wireless while.. In the park.. Or.. wherever.. Hell, the first thing I do on my iPhone is search for open networks. I don't even think of it as stealing.

If they don't lock it I assume that:
a) they don't care
b) they're too ignorant to even notice my usage
c) they WANT to share. I do it myself, my neighbor's having issues with her dsl (Boo, dsl), so I unlocked my network and suggested that she use my network until her cable installation.

It's really not a big deal, unless they're downloading gigs of pirated stuff.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: funkymatt

The fruit tree analogy is absolutely perfect for the wifi problem. You associating this to stealing physical property is ridiculous. In addition to this, there are no laws regarding wireless signals in his country so it's not illegal.

NOT TRUE.

Federal laws prohibit connecting to a computer or computer network you do not have permission to use. It's federal law. There are laws. Stop the misinformation.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: funkymatt

The fruit tree analogy is absolutely perfect for the wifi problem. You associating this to stealing physical property is ridiculous. In addition to this, there are no laws regarding wireless signals in his country so it's not illegal.

NOT TRUE.

Federal laws prohibit connecting to a computer or computer network you do not have permission to use. It's federal law. There are laws. Stop the misinformation.

What do I need to do to give my permission to people? Mine is open for anyone within range to use, no problem. Do I need to post a sign? IANAL

 

[swbsam]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: funkymatt

The fruit tree analogy is absolutely perfect for the wifi problem. You associating this to stealing physical property is ridiculous. In addition to this, there are no laws regarding wireless signals in his country so it's not illegal.

NOT TRUE.

Federal laws prohibit connecting to a computer or computer network you do not have permission to use. It's federal law. There are laws. Stop the misinformation.

Shut up, you friggin boy scout...

The federal law you're speaking of, Title 18 U.S.C. 1030, has not been updated to reflect the wifi infrastructure. Hacking into .. say.. The pentagon's network is and should be legal. Updating your myspace profile using an open network ... There's no law written that states that. Many devices automatically connect to wifi networks without much user intervention and, really, so many parks and libraries offer such services - do they have you sign an agreement or formally grant you permission? Nope, they just leave the network open.

Besides, I don't think laws that go unenforced should really be followed. If a law is passed making open network surfing illegal and cops drove around and locked people up.. Protest or just comply. But there's no resources spent (Wasted) on enforcement because NO ONE CARES.

Of course, committing illegal acts on open networks is illegal because, well, doing illegal stuff is illegal! In fact, india is fining the owners of insecure networks because they have been show to aid in terrorism.. That makes sense to me.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Turin39789
What do I need to do to give my permission to people? Mine is open for anyone within range to use, no problem. Do I need to post a sign? IANAL

A captive portal is all you need legally. It just a web page that when they connect and open a browser you give permission and make them click terms of use. And SSID of "you can use this" would be sufficient as well.

 

[swbsam]

Also, there's the factor of people like me not really giving a f, who share my network without concern. Sure, I feel that I would open myself up for liability if something illegal did occur on my network, but I also would not and could not blame the end user. There are simple tools available for me to protect my network, if I don't use them I am at fault.

There's no good analogy, because this is new territory... It's the social!

 

[swbsam]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Turin39789
What do I need to do to give my permission to people? Mine is open for anyone within range to use, no problem. Do I need to post a sign? IANAL

A captive portal is all you need legally. It just a web page that when they connect and open a browser you give permission and make them click terms of use. And SSID of "you can use this" would be sufficient as well.

Or you could just remove the stick out of your ass.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: funkymatt

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Colt45
People raping your wife is the punishment for being to lazy/ignorant to lock the doors.

Fixed.

Just because something is not locked or secured does NOT make it legal nor ethical to take or use without permission of the owner.

Not a single one of you would like someone to use/take/abuse something of yours without your permission. Therefore you have no ethical excuse for doing the same to others.

Now if you PURPOSELY leave your wifi open and invite others to use it, you are giving permission. That does not excuse you assuming that every other open wifi is the same anymore than every unlocked house is open for you to roam.

The golden rule is not ..."as your cynical, excuse making ass would expect others to treat you" ... it's "as you would like them to treat you."

I think the forums have officially hit a new low. Way to go on comparing leeching wireless internet to rape :roll:

I don't get it. If you don't want people to use your bandwidth, secure your network. Anyone who disagrees is a white knighting dickhead or too lazy to take the 10 seconds required to secure their network.

Leaving the network insecure is an invitation to use it. This is NOT the same as entering someone's home. Many wireless configurations will automatically connect to insecure networks. Your feet will not automatically take you into your neighbor's house. It shouldn't be my responsibility to mess with my configuration just because your router is open.

When you make the choice to leave your router open, you're giving people permission to use it. It's as simple as that. The law is wrong, in this case. This is the equivalent of leaving your door open when you leave for the day and having someone come in to steal a penny. Most people will never know the difference. Yes, it is illegal, but it's ridiculous to bitch and moan about losing that penny if you leave your door unlocked.

Christ, I can't tell whether the people attacking leeching are fake posters or legitimate retards.

You can make all the insults you want, but someone leaving an item unsecured does NOT legally NOR ethically give you the right to take it, use it, or abuse it without permission. Which is why my rape analogy FITS here. Because if leaving something unlocked gives others the legal right to use it, that would apply to everything. Yes, the rape thing was extreme, but it was used to make a point.

It does not matter that your use may not be noticed. It's still unethical and illegal to use a signal and bandwidth that is NOT yours, be it secured or unsecured. I would notice a loss of bandwidth. I notice if I have one or more people on my network surfing the web while I am using it. Especially if I am trying to download something at the time.

EVERYONE forgets to lock their property at one time or another. You KNOW you have. If you would not like people entering and using your property when you forget to lock it (this is not about what you'd expect, but what you would WANT), then you have NO ethical standing to do the same to others.

Leaving something unlocked is NOT a legal or ethical invitation to use a thing without permission. Period.

Just as an unescorted wife is not an invitation to fsck her, an unlocked bike is not an invitation to ride it and an unlocked house is not an invitation for a hobo to come in and dirty dick your bologna, and unsecured network is NOT an invitation to use it. That invitation can ONLY come from express consent.

The law is clearly NOT wrong. No matter what the property or service is, it is RIGHTLY both unethical AND illegal to use the property of others without their permission.

Look, why do locks exist in the first place? To make things non-communal? No. They exist only to stop theives and intruders. If people respected the property of others, we would not need to lock anything.

So... if you feel you have a right to use any unlocked, unsecured thing, YOU are essentially the reason locks exist... and what does that make you?

Locks exist because they keep honest people honest. if someone wants to get into your house, they will break a window or unlatch a sliding glass door.

The fruit tree analogy is absolutely perfect for the wifi problem. You associating this to stealing physical property is ridiculous. In addition to this, there are no laws regarding wireless signals in his country so it's not illegal.

Honest people don't need to be "kept honest."

Locks exist to stop intruders and theft. Period.

Look, the golden rule applies here just as it does to anything else.

If you forget to lock your house, network, or car would you WANT people to violate those properties of yours without your permission? Of course not. If you forgot to lock your car and found someone in it doing donuts in the parking lot, would you not be upset? If you forgot to lock your house and came in to find a hobo going through your wife's underwear drawer, would you not be pissed?

Just because a thing is not yet illegal, does not mean it isn't unethical.

Plain and simple: if you would not like people using your things without your permission, you have no ethical standing to use theirs without their permission. The very fact that none of you who claim to have this entitlement to use the bandwidth others pay for have ever gone over and ASKED to use it, or even tried to inform them that their network is insecure proves this: That you KNOW you are doing something to them that they would not approve of. So the claims that there is an ASSUMPTION that an unsecured network is free for all to use is pure bullshit and you all know it.

And finally, a person's internet connection is a utility. Even though it is not metered (but is very likely capped), the use of another's utility without their permission is unethical. It is little different than your neighbor plugging an extention cord into an outdoor socket on your house and using your electricity with the excuse of "you shoulda locked your sockets."

 

[Evadman]

Originally posted by: ed21x
it's wrong no matter how desperate people try to rationalize it. however, it's just not that big a deal- like stealing 50 cents from someone.

Sweet. That's 115 million dollars if I take 50 cents from everyone in the US. but that's ok right?

Anyway, I would just find the neighbor and ask if it's ok, then you're fine.

 

[kalrith]

Man Arrested for Mooching Neighbor's Wi-Fi (in UK)

Man Charged for Using Cafe's Free Wi-Fi (in Michigan; free WiFi for customers, but he wasn't a customer)

The law, which is meant to protect the public from computer hackers, has only been on the books since 1979, and was updated in 2000 to cover Wi-Fi access. The law, called "Unauthorized Use of Computer Access," basically says that accessing a computer system without authorization is illegal. According to the Police Chief, this covers hopping on Wi-Fi networks. The law allows for a punishment of up to five years in jail and a $10,000 fine.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: funkymatt

The fruit tree analogy is absolutely perfect for the wifi problem. You associating this to stealing physical property is ridiculous. In addition to this, there are no laws regarding wireless signals in his country so it's not illegal.

NOT TRUE.

Federal laws prohibit connecting to a computer or computer network you do not have permission to use. It's federal law. There are laws. Stop the misinformation.

What do I need to do to give my permission to people? Mine is open for anyone within range to use, no problem. Do I need to post a sign? IANAL

SSID "freewifi" would be probably make your intentions clear.

If you stumble on an open router broadcasting as "linksys" it's probably a safe bet that the connection isn't intentionally open. I'd assume most tech geeks like us who would want to keep the WiFi open would customize the SSID.

 

[Modelworks]

Using anything that someone else has paid for without their permission is wrong.
There is no way to rationalize it.

Still, if you want to use it and feel better, slip a $10 bill in their mail

 

[QueBert]

if it was illegal how could they even enforce it? I have a neighbor who knows little about computers. They pay for DSL thru AT&T, have a wireless setup, but whoever set it up put WEP and she doesn't know what WEP is, and her lappy is connecting to 'default' which isn't her network. Mind you she has no clue, it would be impossible to prove somebody connected with intent unless they have verbal proof. I know 100% my neighbor has no idea what she's doing, I told her and she was like "but I turn on my laptop and the internet works." Since it's Vista I'd gather it did pop up the box saying "default is an unsecure network, connect any ways?" and she clicked ok not even understanding what it meant.

I don't see how they can enforce this if people like my neighbor exist, obviously if she's paying AT&T $25 a month for DSL she has no reason to steal internet, but that is exactly what she's been doing for the past 3 years. And I would gather she would represent a good chunk of semi illiterate computer users in America.

 

[onlyCOpunk]

I would also like to know for the people arguing that it is a bad and illegal thing to do what they would do in my situation. No one is just going to sit there and NOT use it.

As well like I said, I don't know what neighbour is offering their internet as it's not like I live on a cul de sac in the burbs, so I can't really go and ask if it is alright if I browse ATOT with their wifi.

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: onlyCOpunk
So while I've been waiting what seems like ages for my ADSL to be hooked up, I've discovered that if I sit at my kitchen table with my laptop I pick up someone's unsecured network.

I've been using it for the past couple of days. Albeit not putting in any pertinent information such as credit card numbers or anything.

For some reason I feel so dirty for leeching off their Internet, yet at te same time not because they did leave it open afterall.

Is what I'm doing wrong?

anonymous cp FTW!

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Turin39789
What do I need to do to give my permission to people? Mine is open for anyone within range to use, no problem. Do I need to post a sign? IANAL

A captive portal is all you need legally. It just a web page that when they connect and open a browser you give permission and make them click terms of use. And SSID of "you can use this" would be sufficient as well.

Sounds like work. I'll just keep it named "Netgear" and wide open.

I don't see why I should have to go out of my way to tell people what I broadcast freely to them is free.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: apocalypse
Legally, yes. Practically, a lot of people do it.

God, I love wardriving. I used to drive around SF and see who was leaving a network open and see if i could access Craigslist. I would log off and drive on, It was really more of a "social science project" thing.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: nkgreen
Ask your neigbors. I'm sure they wouldn't mind if you used a couple days until your DSL gets setup. Throw in a couple bucks for the trouble.

this.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Turin39789
What do I need to do to give my permission to people? Mine is open for anyone within range to use, no problem. Do I need to post a sign? IANAL

A captive portal is all you need legally. It just a web page that when they connect and open a browser you give permission and make them click terms of use. And SSID of "you can use this" would be sufficient as well.

Sounds like work. I'll just keep it named "Netgear" and wide open.

I don't see why I should have to go out of my way to tell people what I broadcast freely to them is free.

Why not name it "Free Internet"?

 

[nineball9]

Originally posted by: KK
Its my belief that any ota signal that you can pick up on your property is fair game. While my belief may not be legal, I don't give a rats ass. the law should be changed.

You do realize that wifi is not a receive only transmission? His system has to broadcast to the wifi router too. Ergo, the OP is broadcasting in to his neighbor's house too.