Using SL 5x5 to lose fat

[z1ggy]

This is kind of a sub thread of the one that IHMJ2004 started last year about the SL5x5 routine. Right now I am around 190lb and 18%fat and would be considered a beginning lifter, even though I have lifted for many years on and off.

My main goal above all else is to burn body fat. Goal of around 12% body fat is the long term prize. However, I really do enjoy lifting and I would also like to up my strength. Overall, I am more of a stocky/medium build and I find lifting heavy gives me the best results. I did get stronger by doing 3x12 routine, but I am bored of doing that now.

I eat primarily paleo and try to limit junk food. I'm taking in around 1800kcal a day, of which 150g is protein. I don't really want to gain weight during this, but it seems like I may have to eat more if I want to gain the strength.

From reading IHMJ2004's thread, it seems like he ran around 2-3 days a week and others commented that it might be taking away his muscle gains, and that also squating 3x a week was TOO much...Even though SL says 3x a week is called for. I suppose he was at the point where he was stalling and that 3x at "heavy" weights, was too much for his body. I plan to start from scratch with doing just the bar and working my way up.

So overall my 3 big questions are:

Can I lose fat AND possibly gain muscle while doing SL5x5?

Do I have to eat MORE or can I keep eating how I am (I can give a detailed breakdown of my meals if somebody thinks it's important)?

Should I not run, or limit my running post work out?

 

[Saint Nick]

SC was telling me that it is still possible to make strength gains while on a cut. Recovery is a lot slower while at a deficit, so you might be only to increase your weights every couple weeks, or longer. I personally use 1.25 pound plates to keep challenging myself and increase the weight at a slow progression.

I am cutting by doing SL, but switched it to 3x5 instead. Mostly limiting carbs right now and eating lots of healthy fats and proteins. Shooting for 2500 calories.

 

[z1ggy]

SC was telling me that it is still possible to make strength gains while on a cut. Recovery is a lot slower while at a deficit, so you might be only to increase your weights every couple weeks, or longer. I personally use 1.25 pound plates to keep challenging myself and increase the weight at a slow progression.

I am cutting by doing SL, but switched it to 3x5 instead. Mostly limiting carbs right now and eating lots of healthy fats and proteins. Shooting for 2500 calories.

I assume that by starting on just the bar (45lb) that I will be able to up my weights by 5lb for at least 6-8 weeks, with no problem. I max on the bench at 225...Unsure about squat and dead because I had hip surgery 3 months ago, but before that, my dead was 275.

I suppose that I can just go with what my body tells me, and if I stop making gains on 5x5, I may switch to 3x5 early, or deload like they say to do, but do it only after one week of not getting 5x5.

It seems like that your body can gain muscle and burn fat all at once, but it just takes much much longer.

Are there any good lifting routines where you won't lose muscle, but just burn fat?

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Running (cardio) is very important to your overall health. The heart is the most important muscle in your body. And besides who wants to be a muscle bound guy that can't move. I go for an overall fitness routine.
Running, basketball, stretch daily, weights (squat,dead, bench), flip tractor tire, some plyometrics, etc.. Yes it works. Every time I play basketball I see the results.

 

[rga]

Forget about weights. Loading up and carbs and walking every other day is the best way to lose weight.

 

[alkemyst]

Running (cardio) is very important to your overall health. The heart is the most important muscle in your body. And besides who wants to be a muscle bound guy that can't move. I go for an overall fitness routine.
Running, basketball, stretch daily, weights (squat,dead, bench), flip tractor tire, some plyometrics, etc.. Yes it works. Every time I play basketball I see the results.

It's rare to become 'muscle bound' unless you are diving into steroids majorly.

Cardio is important, but a lot of running can be detrimental to big size gains.

Personally for me, heavy lifting burns more fat than anything else for me. I can diet heavily and pack on cardio, but my body doesn't want to shed fat. For me I saw a doctor and my metabolism is fine and everything else that could be an issue unless I go deeper down the testing rabbit hole. It's not important to me though.

As far as gains while losing: It's really impossible. What happens is one's body goes back to their most fit stage more or less. You aren't really 'gaining', you are just restoring what you had. In the end most that do this successfully, really aren't cutting...they are just getting less fat looking.

 

[z1ggy]

It's rare to become 'muscle bound' unless you are diving into steroids majorly.

Cardio is important, but a lot of running can be detrimental to big size gains.

Personally for me, heavy lifting burns more fat than anything else for me. I can diet heavily and pack on cardio, but my body doesn't want to shed fat. For me I saw a doctor and my metabolism is fine and everything else that could be an issue unless I go deeper down the testing rabbit hole. It's not important to me though.

As far as gains while losing: It's really impossible. What happens is one's body goes back to their most fit stage more or less. You aren't really 'gaining', you are just restoring what you had. In the end most that do this successfully, really aren't cutting...they are just getting less fat looking.

Overall I don't want to gain any weight, which would translate into muscle mass. Strength however, I would obviously love to gain back.

I am going to try the SL5x5 for 12 weeks and just see what happens. Not sure at this point if I should do a 15-20 min run after I lift or not. In the SL book, he never really mentions to do "cardio here on xyz days/time/interval" but seems to briefly mention that doing it in short amounts could help promote fat loss.

I may considering joining the SL forums for advice. Any one a member?

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Why would you not run? Having muscle does no good if you'll just tire out doing anything athletic. I really don't go for the looks side of it. I have guys that look like they are in better shape than me quite often at the bball court. They usually are slower, can't move laterally like I do, I jump higher, I keep going long after they've become useless and tired out.

 

[Blackjack200]

Can I lose fat AND possibly gain muscle while doing SL5x5?

(I am not aware of any scientific literature on this, so I'm just speculating here.)

Conventional Wisdom is that you can't gain muscle and burn fat at the same time unless you're very untrained.

I'm starting to question this though. Even when you are in a caloric defecit, exercise is still a stressor that your body needs to adapt to, and the adaptation to weighlifting is the development of neural pathways and the repair and addition of muscle tissue.

Keep in mind that on this forum we tend to talk about the regulation caloric intake and expendature in relatively precise terms, but most peole do not regulate their calories that way, they might be 300 calories over one day, 250 under the next, etc.

I'm starting to believe that muscle can be built in a caloric defecit, even in a somewhat trained individual.

Lets imagine that an intermediate lifter does a squat/bench/powerclean workout and then eats one of a number of possible caloric intakes, from caloric maintanance (CM) - 1000 calories to caloric maintanance + 1000 calories. Which of these scenarios seems more likely to you?

Scenario 1:

CM - 1000 calories - No adaptation, long recovery time
CM - 600 calories - No adaptation, long recovery time
CM - 300 calories - No adaptation, long recovery time
CM - No adaptation, medium recovery time
CM + 300 calories - Moderate adaptation, medium recovery time
CM + 600 calories - Full adaptation + slight fat storage, short recovery time

Scenario 2:

CM - 1000 calories - Small, inefficient adaptation to stress including neurological and muscular improvement

CM - 600 calories - Slightly improved adaptation, slightly shorter recovery time

etc. etc. etc.

Do I have to eat MORE or can I keep eating how I am (I can give a detailed breakdown of my meals if somebody thinks it's important)?

I'm about 15 lbs. heavier than you, and eating 1866 calories per day. If you want to keep losing weight, I would keep it there and tolerate slower gains until you hit your weight goal.

Otherwise, if you want to maintain your weight and just get stronger, you could gradually increase your calories while keeping a close eye on the scale.

Should I not run, or limit my running post work out?

I imagine that any running you do will retard your strength progress, just because of your limited calories. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, it's just a trade off.

 

[Blackjack200]

Why would you not run? Having muscle does no good if you'll just tire out doing anything athletic. I really don't go for the looks side of it. I have guys that look like they are in better shape than me quite often at the bball court. They usually are slower, can't move laterally like I do, I jump higher, I keep going long after they've become useless and tired out.

If you are jumping higher, that means you are stronger (or just lighter). It has nothing to do with cardio training.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Why would you not run? Having muscle does no good if you'll just tire out doing anything athletic. I really don't go for the looks side of it. I have guys that look like they are in better shape than me quite often at the bball court. They usually are slower, can't move laterally like I do, I jump higher, I keep going long after they've become useless and tired out.

The army has done research with replacing all the ridiculous amounts of running with doing compound barbell lifts. The soldiers who did the barbell lifts and no cardio were able to run longer and faster, carry more, and recover faster than those that did the traditional running for miles and miles all day.

The article was on Mark Rippetoes website at some point but I can't find it anymore.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

If you are jumping higher, that means you are stronger (or just lighter). It has nothing to do with cardio training.

I guess you missed where I said I use the major lifts, flip a tractor tire, stretch, and do plyometrics. Not only that basketball is basically a hour plus long plyometric session. Also jumping more helps jumping.

 

[alkemyst]

Overall I don't want to gain any weight, which would translate into muscle mass. Strength however, I would obviously love to gain back.

I am going to try the SL5x5 for 12 weeks and just see what happens. Not sure at this point if I should do a 15-20 min run after I lift or not. In the SL book, he never really mentions to do "cardio here on xyz days/time/interval" but seems to briefly mention that doing it in short amounts could help promote fat loss.

I may considering joining the SL forums for advice. Any one a member?

You really can't get stronger without gaining mass. Not everyone get huge...actually very few do.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

The army has done research with replacing all the ridiculous amounts of running with doing compound barbell lifts. The soldiers who did the barbell lifts and no cardio were able to run longer and faster, carry more, and recover faster than those that did the traditional running for miles and miles all day.

The article was on Mark Rippetoes website at some point but I can't find it anymore.

Yes if you added weight while running obviously someone trained with weights would do better.
And you guys are fckin ridiculous with your anti running BS. Never once did I mention replacing weight training with running. Did any of you assclowns read where I do all the major lifts (squat,dead, bench), flip a 6 foot tall tractor tire, plyometrics, etc? Sorry you guys are all show and no go. Please don't show up to the basketball court otherwise I'd have to embarrass you with my superior training methods.

 

[brad310]

Ive been doing SS/SL type lifting for a couple of years.

A little back story on me, i lost about 80lbs doing pure cardio. Got sick of cardio, started lifting.

I enjoy lifting. It makes me happy. i look forward to it. i like being strong. the problem is, that for ME to get stronger, i had to pretty much maintain/add some weight. My last phase i added too much weight, so im going to have to cut down.

In my personal experience, beyond a beginning lifter, i couldnt get stronger without eating for it. I gained. But i accept that. Now its time to cut the fat and try to maintain the gains.

I would suggest focus on strength or getting your body fat where you want it. Not both. You'll probably injure yourself.

TBH its prob going to be extremely difficult to maintain such a low body fat while trying to gain strength.

 

[Blackjack200]

I guess you missed where I said I use the major lifts, flip a tractor tire, stretch, and do plyometrics. Not only that basketball is basically a hour plus long plyometric session. Also jumping more helps jumping.

I didn't miss anything, you suggested that he run and then talked about how you are faster, quicker, and higher-jumping than your opponents. It's reasonable to infer that you're connecting the running to your performance. In reality, running will not improve any of those things, (unless you're talking about sprints and shuttle runs as opposed to jogging).

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Athlete that runs and lifts vs the lift only athlete is a better athlete. End of story. Don't make excuses that you guys don't train properly.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

I didn't miss anything, you suggested that he run and then talked about how you are faster, quicker, and higher-jumping than your opponents. It's reasonable to infer that you're connecting the running to your performance. In reality, running will not improve any of those things, (unless you're talking about sprints and shuttle runs as opposed to jogging).

And yes my superior cardio does all of that. Doesn't matter if you have a 35" vertical if after 20 minutes you can no longer do that because you're too tired. Running keeps you limber and also works the calves which is a weak spot for most.

 

[z1ggy]

I'm about 15 lbs. heavier than you, and eating 1866 calories per day. If you want to keep losing weight, I would keep it there and tolerate slower gains until you hit your weight goal.

Otherwise, if you want to maintain your weight and just get stronger, you could gradually increase your calories while keeping a close eye on the scale.

I want to do the latter of what you said-maintain weight, get stronger but I do want to cut fat.

So currently 190lb @ 18% fat means I have around 156lb of muscle. My goal then to be at 12% fat with out losing muscle, means I would have to cut to around 180lb.

So ultimately the big question is, can I lose 10lb of fat while eating the same diet (around 1800-2000kcal a day, depending on if I lift or not) and minimal running. I do play floor hockey 1-2times a week which is around 15 total minutes of fairly hard running, so I feel like that doesn't count as "cardio".

And while I am here, I am going to list my average daily diet for your critique if you will.

Bfast:
Fruit smoothie with fresh raspberries, black berries and blue berries
-1 cup total fruits
-1cup vanilla non fat greek yogurt
-few choc chips
-dash of soy milk
-table spoon of flaxseed oil

Snacks:
-12 oz of greek non fat yogurt
-Gala apple
-Almonds (about 40)

Lunch:
Meat and Veggie Mix:
-2 Chicken breast
-1/3lb 93% lean ground beef
-Broc,spinach,asparagus,zuchhini,onion,garlic,sundried tomato,roasted red pepper

Dinner:
Protein with some carbs
-1 chicken breast
-12oz Soy milk

(if I lifted)
-1 scoop dymatize blended protein powder
-12oz soymilk

And of course I drink around 80oz of water during the day, too. I honestly can't imagine eating more than this due to always feeling full from water. That right there adds up to around 1800-2000kcal.

 

[z1ggy]

You really can't get stronger without gaining mass. Not everyone get huge...actually very few do.

I don't want to get "huge". I want to be lean and toned (6 pack, defined traps, etc etc). If you look at the guy who wrote the SL5x5 stuff (Medhi or something like that) he doesn't look "huge". He is a power lifter, not a body builder. I have 0 interest in being a meat head.

 

[smackababy]

I don't want to get "huge". I want to be lean and toned (6 pack, defined traps, etc etc). If you look at the guy who wrote the SL5x5 stuff (Medhi or something like that) he doesn't look "huge". He is a power lifter, not a body builder. I have 0 interest in being a meat head.

Getting huge is not something that just happens in the gym. You just don't wake up one day, look in the mirror, and think "Oh wow! I've gotten huge". Getting to the those levels either takes lots of hard work over lots of time or lots of hard work and steroid use.

The misconception that people get of "I don't want to get big so I don't want to lift too much" is rather silly.

 

[z1ggy]

Getting huge is not something that just happens in the gym. You just don't wake up one day, look in the mirror, and think "Oh wow! I've gotten huge". Getting to the those levels either takes lots of hard work over lots of time or lots of hard work and steroid use.

The misconception that people get of "I don't want to get big so I don't want to lift too much" is rather silly.

I totally agree. I wasn't sayign that I was going to avoid lifting so I don't become "huge". I was just saying that my goal here isn't to be on the cover of muscle and fitness mag. Just be strong for my weight, and at around 12% fat.

 

[alkemyst]

Yes if you added weight while running obviously someone trained with weights would do better.
And you guys are fckin ridiculous with your anti running BS. Never once did I mention replacing weight training with running. Did any of you assclowns read where I do all the major lifts (squat,dead, bench), flip a 6 foot tall tractor tire, plyometrics, etc? Sorry you guys are all show and no go. Please don't show up to the basketball court otherwise I'd have to embarrass you with my superior training methods.

whoa, we have a tough guy here.

Dude, you totally just did a 180 on what you told us all prior.

Also you discussing becoming 'muscle bound' was equally laughable.

You have good results out of luck, not knowledge.

 

[smackababy]

whoa, we have a tough guy here.

This just made my day! Thank you alky. +1

 

[pauldun170]

I used be around 190lb @5'9, strong from lifting throughout the years. I never worried about my BF%, I don't really care about being cut\ripped. As long as I don't have a gut I don't care.
I started running last year. I'm struggling to maintain 180lbs because whatever body fat I have is melting away.

Lately I've been doing a wendler 5/3/1 (PL...not BB)routine 3 days a weeks, a long run once a week (4-9 miles Sun, lot of hills) and 2 fast runs (2 miles Monday, Friday)
This is on top of 3 fairly fast 2 mile walks 3 days a week.

Slimming down while getting stronger (and fixing some bad lifting habits in the process)
Only tricky part is food planning around each activity.