Using proper grammar or correcting other people on their grammar is now racist

[Charmonium]

I enjoy hearing other dialects and pronunciations of words. I never understood why people feel the way they say it is better. Perhaps people that misuse verb tense or slur words are collectively less intelligent, but it doesn't necessarily make one more intelligent to correct them, it just makes them an ass.

That's because very few people take constructive criticism constructively. Sure, if you're a dick about it then of course you're going to get a hostile response. That's common sense. But even when it's clear you're trying to help, people still take it personally.

Whether or not you want to admit it, people judge you based on how you speak. They'll never tell you that to your face but be assured, they are definitely thinking it. And that works both ways. You tend to have a more favorable attitude to people you perceive as being like you. So if someone talks in a way that is familiar to you, you're going to have a more favorable opinion of them. The corollary to that is that people you perceive as being haughty or self-important based on how they speak are people you're going to tend to not like.

 

[soulcougher73]

I did nazi these responses coming. I agree with the last part of her message in the video but the racist part of it was lame.

 

[Blue_Max]

Wait, is the term 'ebonics' racist?

Give it a couple weeks... . Hey, 'gender studies' students - there's a potential movement for one of you to head up and get an A from your prof for! :thumbsup:

Since it has to be new each time for the best score, only the first one gets to take the credit for it! Hurry, hurry, hurry!!

 

[Jeff7]

Chalabi argues that grammar "evolves" and attacks the "snobs" who believe we need a "common language" and "set of rules we can all understand."

And a system often requires negative feedback to ensure that it doesn't get out of control.

 

[HomerJS]

She's right about the fact that grammar is constantly evolving. But there's a difference between believing something is "correct" and it actually being so. Take the last sentence for example. I shouldn't have started it with a conjunction. I did because a) I don't care and b) it's now considered accepted usage.

There are a lot of English rules that don't really make a lot of sense and SHOULD be simplified. Take who and whom for example. Does anyone really care about this any more. For the most part, no.

I do however object when simplification results in the impairment of the information content of the language. So for example, 'literally' really shouldn't be allowed to mean both 'literally' in the original sense and it's opposite. That literally leads to confusion. In most cases you can determine from the context what the speaker means but you shouldn't have to resort to context when the language can do the work for you.

Of course there are plenty of words that have ambiguity depending on the context but as a general rule those develop out of necessity - because no other existing word really captures what you want to say and spelling out exactly what you mean every time is too laborious and contorted.

So there are times when old rules need to be disposed of and other times where they serve a purpose. To start making blanket statements like those in the video, while there are some good points there, oversimplifying makes you look just as foolish as improper usage.

Thou art correct

 

[PokerGuy]

there is no logic or reasoning in creating a thread linking "to an article someone wrote about a video made by an idiot" and then disparaging a large group of people unless you are a racist/bigot/POS.

So much fail in such a small paragraph. Coming from someone terminally stupid such as yourself I'll take that as a compliment! Thanks!

 

[mikeymikec]

Sorry, but I don't care who you are, or whether you're white, black, yellow, red, green, brown, or purple - if your speech indicates that you had a very poor education, then on most topics I'd be concerned about enough to listen to other people's opinions, your opinion, formed by someone with a poor education, generally is meaningless. If it's meaningful, then it's likely that someone else who can articulate an idea in English will do so.

While I think a lot of the time this is probably true, it's a worrying bias to adopt, and if you're one of these people considered to be poorly educated then according to this bias people are less likely to listen to what you have to say, which in turn makes you believe that these people never listen to you and think you're inferior to them, which therefore causes you to listen to those who do listen to you, which means that you're less likely to be exposed to diverse opinions and types of knowledge.

It also has a similar effect on those doing the ignoring in the first place, which perhaps has less of an effect on them generally, though I think when they try to comment on topics based on what little exposure they have to parts of society they've mostly ignored, that's when it becomes strikingly obvious.

I pretty much agree with everything Charmonium has said on this topic

That's because very few people take constructive criticism constructively. Sure, if you're a dick about it then of course you're going to get a hostile response. That's common sense. But even when it's clear you're trying to help, people still take it personally.

I admit that my response to PokerGuy on this topic was not kindly worded, and if I wanted to increase the chances of him taking what I said on board then I should have made my point more nicely, even if I didn't think the chances were that great in the first place.

 

[Paratus]

I have to laugh at the obvious hypocrisy of conservatives bitching about "political correctness" when correcting someone's grammar and then bitching about "smug liberals" when corrected by a liberal.

 

[PokerGuy]

I have to laugh at the obvious hypocrisy of conservatives bitching about "political correctness" when correcting someone's grammar and then bitching about "smug liberals" when corrected by a liberal.

Are you off your meds again?

 

[NesuD]

That's probably the opinion of someone who never went to a university.

For someone who's been to a university, I wouldn't go so far as to calling myself a grammer nazi but it does irritate me when I read something like..

"I will be their"
"They misunderestimated me"
"Is our children learning?"

Actually in the US education system grammar is taught well before university. If you have not mastered proper grammar by the time you finish high school then you shouldn't have graduated. Sadly I have seen many well educated people with 4 year degrees for whom proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling seem to be a foreign language.

 

[PokerGuy]

I rarely (if ever) correct anyone on their grammar. I don't feel the need to, and overall people just don't take to constructive criticism very well, unless it comes from a really close friend (and even then it's iffy).

That said, poor grammar reflects very poorly on the speaker, whether anyone corrects them or not. People using poor grammar are going to be less likely to be listened to, because they tend to be less educated. There are obvious pitfalls in using education as a proxy for "worth listening to", but that's a short cut most people in the world use.

 

[HomerJS]

I rarely (if ever) correct anyone on their grammar. I don't feel the need to, and overall people just don't take to constructive criticism very well, unless it comes from a really close friend (and even then it's iffy).

That said, poor grammar reflects very poorly on the speaker, whether anyone corrects them or not. People using poor grammar are going to be less likely to be listened to, because they tend to be less educated. There are obvious pitfalls in using education as a proxy for "worth listening to", but that's a short cut most people in the world use.

Didn't seem to hurt Sarah Palin running in 2008 with the "real America" crowd

 

[alien42]

So much fail in such a small paragraph. Coming from someone terminally stupid such as yourself I'll take that as a compliment! Thanks!

you can't defend the ignorance in creating this thread so you throw out a lame personal attack.

you're still a racist bigoted POS.

 

[fskimospy]

I have to laugh at the obvious hypocrisy of conservatives bitching about "political correctness" when correcting someone's grammar and then bitching about "smug liberals" when corrected by a liberal.

You may have missed the point. You're being a good citizen when you correct OTHERS about very important things like grammar. People are smug when they correct YOU about trivial things like not understanding climate science.

 

[realibrad]

I enjoy hearing other dialects and pronunciations of words. I never understood why people feel the way they say it is better. Perhaps people that misuse verb tense or slur words are collectively less intelligent, but it doesn't necessarily make one more intelligent to correct them, it just makes them an ass.

What about context? Language changes all the time. If it changes enough, it becomes hard to understand people and have effective communication. Correcting and making sure people are on the same page does not make anyone an ass. The motive should matter there.

There are times when people focus on grammar errors instead of arguments. That said, its not just grammar. People will try all sorts of things to indirectly "win" on the internet. Dealing with a valid argument is a lot harder than attacking other things. Say you don't like an argument, and that argument came from a source that is almost always politically biased. Instead of taking on that argument, just dismiss it because the source is usually biased.

The point is that there is utility in cohesion. What makes someone an ass is intent.

 

[PokerGuy]

you can't defend the ignorance in creating this thread so you throw out a lame personal attack.

haha "ignorance in creating this thread". Brilliant. Ignorance of what exactly?

you're still a racist bigoted POS.

I'm sure someone like you is too dumb to understand irony, but it's funny that you complain about a "lame personal attack", then proceed to throw out a personal attack/accusation with absolutely no basis in reality.

As I've said before, I don't put too much stock in comments coming from terminally stupid people like yourself.

 

[Subyman]

What about context? Language changes all the time. If it changes enough, it becomes hard to understand people and have effective communication. Correcting and making sure people are on the same page does not make anyone an ass. The motive should matter there.

There are times when people focus on grammar errors instead of arguments. That said, its not just grammar. People will try all sorts of things to indirectly "win" on the internet. Dealing with a valid argument is a lot harder than attacking other things. Say you don't like an argument, and that argument came from a source that is almost always politically biased. Instead of taking on that argument, just dismiss it because the source is usually biased.

The point is that there is utility in cohesion. What makes someone an ass is intent.

How can you correct them if you can't understand them?

The only time I've ever been in a situation to correct someone was in graduate school when a foreign student actively asked me for help with her English. I would help her with word choice and pronunciation, but only because she asked. I would never embarrass someone by correcting them. That does not extend to children. I will certainly correct children and possibly family members that I'm close to, but not adults.

The reason for this is quite clear. When you correct someone grammatically, you clutch the mentor role and presume them to be the student. That act makes it known to that person that you believe they are lesser. This unbalances the social equilibrium and mutual respect for each other's position in society or within the relationship. Your view of them and their view of you are now unbalanced and there is a conflict to resolve this. This is why it tends to feel weird to offer unsolicited advice (if you learned social cues properly.)

When someone asks for help, they are submitting to what they believe is your greater knowledge on the topic and in return they hope to gain that knowledge.

Relationship imbalance is the primary cause of interpersonal conflicts.

 

[realibrad]

How can you correct them if you can't understand them?

The only time I've ever been in a situation to correct someone was in graduate school when a foreign student actively asked me for help with her English. I would help her with word choice and pronunciation, but only because she asked. I would never embarrass someone by correcting them. That does not extend to children. I will certainly correct children and possibly family members that I'm close to, but not adults.

The reason for this is quite clear. When you correct someone grammatically, you clutch the mentor role and presume them to be the student. That act makes it known to that person that you believe they are lesser. This unbalances the social equilibrium and mutual respect for each other's position in society or within the relationship. Your view of them and their view of you are now unbalanced and there is a conflict to resolve this. This is why it tends to feel weird to offer unsolicited advice (if you learned social cues properly.)

When someone asks for help, they are submitting to what they believe is your greater knowledge on the topic and in return they hope to gain that knowledge.

Relationship imbalance is the primary cause of interpersonal conflicts.

You correct people to keep them on the same page. Its a slow process.

Also, that is a horrible way to look at people. Correcting people has nothing to do with superiority. There are very smart people out there that I don't hold a candle to. That does not mean there are somethings that I might know that they will not. For me, I correct people because I care.

If my GF and I are at a dinner party, and she is in the middle of a story, I wont correct her grammar during the story. Later I will say hey, you said this. In fact she is a perfect example.

He is a communication major and loves English and all that BS. She knows far more words that I, but she used vehement and said it wrong. I told her not because I am smarter than her (I'm not) but because I know she wants to be as accurate as possible.

So, context matters. I have no doubt that some people will take corrections in the way you have said, but its not inherent to correcting.

 

[Jaskalas]

I have to laugh at the obvious hypocrisy of conservatives bitching about "political correctness" when correcting someone's grammar and then bitching about "smug liberals" when corrected by a liberal.

Not hypocrisy to count people as knuckle draggers by the drool coming out of their mouth. Classification is not censorship. People are free to be retarded, they'll simply be counted as such.

 

[Subyman]

You correct people to keep them on the same page. Its a slow process.

Also, that is a horrible way to look at people. Correcting people has nothing to do with superiority. There are very smart people out there that I don't hold a candle to. That does not mean there are somethings that I might know that they will not. For me, I correct people because I care.

If my GF and I are at a dinner party, and she is in the middle of a story, I wont correct her grammar during the story. Later I will say hey, you said this. In fact she is a perfect example.

He is a communication major and loves English and all that BS. She knows far more words that I, but she used vehement and said it wrong. I told her not because I am smarter than her (I'm not) but because I know she wants to be as accurate as possible.

So, context matters. I have no doubt that some people will take corrections in the way you have said, but its not inherent to correcting.

Um, your "girlfriend" would fall under my exceptions of some family you are close to. As you can see, you already agree with everything I said. The underlying reason you avoid correcting her in certain settings and likely tippy toe your way into the correction later on is because of that imbalance that I described. You must find a way to frame the correction that minimizes the conflict I described.

I described exactly why correcting someone can be awkward and why they may find offense to it. Those that strictly want to adhere to "I'm making the world a better place by making sure people speak properly" are free to do that, but they are likely socially awkward people...

FWIW, this thread was, I thought, in the context of correcting strangers, which is what my response was mostly to.

 

[realibrad]

Um, your "girlfriend" would fall under my exceptions of some family you are close to. As you can see, you already agree with everything I said. The underlying reason you avoid correcting her in certain settings and likely tippy toe your way into the correction later on is because of that imbalance that I described. You must find a way to frame the correction that minimizes the conflict I described.

I described exactly why correcting someone can be awkward and why they may find offense to it. Those that strictly want to adhere to "I'm making the world a better place by making sure people speak properly" are free to do that, but they are likely socially awkward people...

FWIW, this thread was, I thought, in the context of correcting strangers, which is what my response was mostly to.

Correcting people has caused that, but its also sparked conversation with some fun people. Hearing people talk about issues with their home wifi has been a big one. Sometimes I see people get annoyed, so I stop, but many many others enjoy it and thank me, then ask me a bunch more questions.

For grammar, I will usually jump in if the person is unsure or it has come up where there is a question. I would not do that to a stranger just walking by that I hear. But, it should not make someone an ass. Your comment was not just that it would make someone seem like an ass, but that you thought they were an ass.

 

[Charmonium]

Also, that is a horrible way to look at people. Correcting people has nothing to do with superiority. There are very smart people out there that I don't hold a candle to. That does not mean there are somethings that I might know that they will not. For me, I correct people because I care.

The bolded part is very true. Although I have to admit that the times something similar has happened to me, my first reaction was embarrassment. But once I got over that, I was grateful for the assist.

I don't correct people unless it's someone I know very well and I know in advance that they are going to be receptive. Otherwise I just cringe and try not to notice. I've gotten so used to doing that that I edit their words in my head to proper form before I try to process them. So I'm aware of the mistake but in my mind, it's already been corrected.

Yeah, doesn't make a lot of sense, I know. But it works for me.

 

[realibrad]

The bolded part is very true. Although I have to admit that the times something similar has happened to me, my first reaction was embarrassment. But once I got over that, I was grateful for the assist.

I don't correct people unless it's someone I know very well and I know in advance that they are going to be receptive. Otherwise I just cringe and try not to notice. I've gotten so used to doing that that I edit their words in my head to proper form before I try to process them. So I'm aware of the mistake but in my mind, it's already been corrected.

Yeah, doesn't make a lot of sense, I know. But it works for me.

I don't know if its a generational thing, but my generation (I'm 30) and the younger seem to take offense a lot easier than older people. I usually hang around people my age or older, but the people I am around, even then they are not friends don't seem to be offended. Its not like I correct people daily, so maybe there have not been enough times for me to see it, I don't feel that when I do, its offensive.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I don't know if its a generational thing, but my generation (I'm 30) and the younger seem to take offense a lot easier than older people. I usually hang around people my age or older, but the people I am around, even then they are not friends don't seem to be offended. Its not like I correct people daily, so maybe there have not been enough times for me to see it, I don't feel that when I do, its offensive.

I remember when someone once told me that it was proper grammar to say "attention should be given" instead of "attention should be paid". I have horrible grammar but this mini-lesson has always stuck with me. I never felt that he was being condescending by mentioning this...however, in addition to poor grammar, frail sensibilities was never my strong suit either.

 

[Moonbeam]

I remember when someone once told me that it was proper grammar to say "attention should be given" instead of "attention should be paid". I have horrible grammar but this mini-lesson has always stuck with me. I never felt that he was being condescending by mentioning this...however, in addition to poor grammar, frail sensibilities was never my strong suit either.

I guess you must have paid attention to what that someone said. Personally, I give my attention to subjects that I like and pay attention to threats or where attention deficit might cost me even more in the long run.