SociallyChallenged
Elite
- Mar 22, 2002
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Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I just mix it up with my whey. Is this bad?
Not usually, especially if you use a nice big cup of milk as a base. They say you need 100g of simple carbs or 50g protein/50g simple carbs to get the creatine into the cells most efficiently. The protein/carb mix has the same effect as the 100% carbs beverage.
- Sep 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I just mix it up with my whey. Is this bad?
Not usually, especially if you use a nice big cup of milk as a base. They say you need 100g of simple carbs or 50g protein/50g simple carbs to get the creatine into the cells most efficiently. The protein/carb mix has the same effect as the 100% carbs beverage.
Can't I just eat carbs? Or do I have to 'drink' carbs. I haven't had fruit juice in ages and I've been avoiding sugar for the longest time.
SociallyChallenged
Elite
- Mar 22, 2002
- 10,483
- 32
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Originally posted by: TecHNooB
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I just mix it up with my whey. Is this bad?
Not usually, especially if you use a nice big cup of milk as a base. They say you need 100g of simple carbs or 50g protein/50g simple carbs to get the creatine into the cells most efficiently. The protein/carb mix has the same effect as the 100% carbs beverage.
Can't I just eat carbs? Or do I have to 'drink' carbs. I haven't had fruit juice in ages and I've been avoiding sugar for the longest time.
You could, but it seems that sugars work best to get the creatine into the cells. That's why dextrose is suggested as optimal, but fruit juice (16oz at least) does great.
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Originally posted by: TecHNooB
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I just mix it up with my whey. Is this bad?
Not usually, especially if you use a nice big cup of milk as a base. They say you need 100g of simple carbs or 50g protein/50g simple carbs to get the creatine into the cells most efficiently. The protein/carb mix has the same effect as the 100% carbs beverage.
Can't I just eat carbs? Or do I have to 'drink' carbs. I haven't had fruit juice in ages and I've been avoiding sugar for the longest time.
You could, but it seems that sugars work best to get the creatine into the cells. That's why dextrose is suggested as optimal, but fruit juice (16oz at least) does great.
He is right. Although it actually isn't a necessity to take a bunch of carbs/sugars with your creatine, it definitely helps the absorption rate. If you want to stay away from sugars but still want better absorption, check out something like tri-creatine malate. It is supposed to transport to your cells better. It can be bought for like $3 for 100g and they say you only need 3-4g a day instead of the 5-7g for creatine monohydrate. Some people also like creatine ethyl esther (aka CEE).
Another ATOT member (back before the FItness forum) recommended CellMass.
So I took that for the suggested 12-week course. Took 3 canisters, and they're like $37ish a pop. So it's pricey. I had decent results with it -- gained weight and strength - but I'm not sure it was anything miraculous. Was I wasting my money? Should I stick to GNC Creatine Mono? (Just an example...)
I mean, I don't mind paying for it if it's "better" (even if slightly). The one thing that drove me nuts though is that that shit dominates your whole day:
You take it twice, either 8 hours before or 8 hours after a workout. You have to take it on an empty stomach. So that means you need to know if you've eaten 2 hours before. You can't eat anything until 30 minutes after. So that means if you plan on working out at, say, 6 (which is common), you either have to make sure to take it at 10 (and then either have had to eaten breakfast at 8, or not eat anything until 10:30), or take it at 2 in the morning. And if you leave the gym, you can't pick up dinner on the way home, since you have to take the stuff and can't eat for 30 minutes. And GOD FORBID you're not "sure" if you're going to lift on a given day. That'll add even more options to worry about.
Anyway, I did that religiously for 12 weeks. And, apparently, I should [have] kept doing it until I die. But I'm thinking of starting again -- in conjunction with my workout routine switch, which I will do in full once I make sure my ass is healed (yes, I got a hemorrhoid from squats/deads. The funny thing is, while the hemorrhoid wasn't fun, it was relatively minor, and the bigger issue/annoyance is the fact that now I feel like I can't do squats! It sucks! I was really getting into the Starting Strength routine. As of now, I'm doing a modified version -- and yes, I know it's not the same, but I don't want to hurt myself again -- but I'm going to try to get back into it, gingerly, as soon as possible. End parenthetical).
Anyway...thoughts?
SociallyChallenged
Elite
- Mar 22, 2002
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Originally posted by: TheNinja
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Originally posted by: TecHNooB
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I just mix it up with my whey. Is this bad?
Not usually, especially if you use a nice big cup of milk as a base. They say you need 100g of simple carbs or 50g protein/50g simple carbs to get the creatine into the cells most efficiently. The protein/carb mix has the same effect as the 100% carbs beverage.
Can't I just eat carbs? Or do I have to 'drink' carbs. I haven't had fruit juice in ages and I've been avoiding sugar for the longest time.
You could, but it seems that sugars work best to get the creatine into the cells. That's why dextrose is suggested as optimal, but fruit juice (16oz at least) does great.
He is right. Although it actually isn't a necessity to take a bunch of carbs/sugars with your creatine, it definitely helps the absorption rate. If you want to stay away from sugars but still want better absorption, check out something like tri-creatine malate. It is supposed to transport to your cells better. It can be bought for like $3 for 100g and they say you only need 3-4g a day instead of the 5-7g for creatine monohydrate. Some people also like creatine ethyl esther (aka CEE).
Just as a note, after loading, you only need about 2g of creatine monohydrate to maintain your levels. Every research study I've read has said that. Just thought I'd point that out so you don't waste your creatine.
But is there anything to be gained by something like CellMass? I mean, I know it's a CEE, and I know it has, uh, "other stuff" in it, but does any of that matter? I don't mind paying for it, if it's better (even if that "better-ness" is only 5%, or 10% or whatever). I'm just curious as to why or how it's better if it is.
Some other types of creatine will simply claim a better absorption rate. So instead of say 5g of creatine at 60% absorption, you can take 3g of CEE or Creatine Citrate, Gloconate, etc. at 90% abosorption. I don't konw the actual numbers those are just examples. Also, some types of creatine make you retain more water. In my experience, creatine monohydrate will give you serious water weight gain and pumps. Which is cool if you want to look bigger in 2 weeks. CEE and Tricreatine Citrate did not make me retain much water but I got some strength gains...which is nice if you want to look a little more ripped but smaller.
In regards to CellMass in particular, it is overpriced for what's in it in my opinion. It is basically 3g of CEE plus a trace amount of sodium, potassium, and ~10g of carbs (most likely maltodextrin or some cheap simple carb). The other other nice thing I see in it is Glutamine...however this is some debate on it's effectiveness. Some swear by it and some say it's worthless. The you have the famous "Muscle Cell Uptake Proprietary Matrix = 950mg. So basically 1g of something...my guess is probably the sucralose, the citric acid, or something like that.
- Aug 22, 2001
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Thanks for the informative posts, I decided to start on the creatine mono and see what it does for me. I plan to take it with dextrose, aftre reading hear and elsewhere about it.
What I read, is that for most meat eaters, that 2g is about what is naturally present. Ar e you saying I just need to add an additional 2 grams to that daily? I want to try for the strength and size gains I've read about, and want to be certain I get enough to achieve it without the potentially nasty side effects evidently associated with loading amounts.
SociallyChallenged
Elite
- Mar 22, 2002
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If you read around, it is shown that, once your muscles are saturated with creatine, they only need 2g of creatine a day to keep that saturation (usually depending on your size). Your body only USES 2g a day. I'm sure there is much more than 2g present in your body naturally. If you don't want to load, take 5g a day. You can calculate how long it would take to potentially get your muscles saturated, then you could drop it to 2g a day or you could just keep it at 5g a day if you don't wanna go through all that. The choice is your's - I'm just looking to save you guys some creatine and some $.
About CEE
There is also a similar study on Kre-Alkalyn.
Bottom line, stick with what works - Creatine Monohydrate.
There is also a similar study on Kre-Alkalyn.
Bottom line, stick with what works - Creatine Monohydrate.
question: If I were to say...use BSN Cell-Mass, run out and then switch to plain Creatine Monohydrate or CellTech Hardcore, would it make any difference?
SociallyChallenged
Elite
- Mar 22, 2002
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Yeah, you might go from seeing no results to seeing results
I've heard that some people have a terrible time with the esterified creatine. Just go with what's proven - creatine mono - and you'll be good.
superstition
Platinum Member
- Feb 2, 2008
- 2,219
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There's an issue that people haven't mentioned. If loading causes an increase in toxic chemicals smaller amounts of creatine supplementation are not necessarily safe. I assume that the same amount of formaldehyde (for instance) is created from a gram of creatine whether you ate 19 grams or 3. Perhaps loading causes the creatine to be metabolized differently, leading to a higher level of toxic byproducts, but I doubt it.
So, the question becomes - how much formaldehyde are you willing to risk?
So, the question becomes - how much formaldehyde are you willing to risk?
- Aug 22, 2001
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LOL. Besides, his assumption seems silly to me. Since our body produces it naturally, in small quantities ,and it is available from meats in various concentration, if what he postulates about the same cytotoxic effect resulting, just in smaller dosage, is the fact, then it would be happening whether you take it as a supplement or not.
My conclusion from the results of the study, is that it shows that many times the natural amount is potentially harmful to you. "All things in moderation" comes to mind, iow, use common sense.
superstition
Platinum Member
- Feb 2, 2008
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You're missing the point. If you're worried about the toxic by-products of amount A then you should be worried about amount B until you have evidence that amount B is safe. That's basic logic. No one has presented any evidence that demonstrates that there is a negligible health risk from taking 5 grams of creatine per day instead of 20.
That's all I'm saying. I am not saying 5 grams per day is unsafe. I'm saying no one has presented information either way, and the toxic byproducts of larger supplementation has been posted about. The question is "how much of these by-products are you willing to risk?" What are the long-term effects?
Another issue is impurities in products. Is there sufficient testing to prevent contaminants from being in these supplements?
That's all I'm saying. I am not saying 5 grams per day is unsafe. I'm saying no one has presented information either way, and the toxic byproducts of larger supplementation has been posted about. The question is "how much of these by-products are you willing to risk?" What are the long-term effects?
Another issue is impurities in products. Is there sufficient testing to prevent contaminants from being in these supplements?
- Aug 22, 2001
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superstition,
I didn't miss the point you are trying to make, there is logic in what you say. Perhaps it my stance that is unclear?
Because it is a naturally occurring substance, 5 grams, which is approx./a bit over twice what most of us meat eaters would have in us anyways, isn't thatmuch higher of a dose. It also halts the natural production of it, while being taken. So I'm not very concerned about it, because whether I take it as a supp. or get it naturally, if there is some harmful side effect, I'd likely be subject to it without ever having taken it as a supp. Somehow it just doesn't feel as dangerous as Russian roulette to me.
I prefer to think of myself as a realistically cautious human, and I don't fret over every little potential mechanism of injury and illness, there are simply to many, and we all are going to die no matter how cautious we are. Hell, there are studies that show grilling meat produces carcinogens, I'm not giving that up either.
How Much Is Too Much? - National Academy of Science issues tolerable upper intake levels for nutritional supplements - Interview It starts right off with
The impurities point you make is also a good one, and that one does concern me. judging by the FDA's role quite a bit of damage can be done before the gov. gets involved. From the research I did before deciding to take it, there appear to be 2 primary sources, China and Germany, not surprisingly the German stuff is the one of higher quality and purity, and is more expensive. The most reputable companies in the supp. industry evidently use the German stuff, and state that their creatine is 99.9% Pharmaceutical grade. That, and the lack of anecdotal evidence by the many thousands of users, is good enough for me. I guess that is the laugh in the face of danger, live on the razor's edge life we lead.
I didn't miss the point you are trying to make, there is logic in what you say. Perhaps it my stance that is unclear?
Because it is a naturally occurring substance, 5 grams, which is approx./a bit over twice what most of us meat eaters would have in us anyways, isn't thatmuch higher of a dose. It also halts the natural production of it, while being taken. So I'm not very concerned about it, because whether I take it as a supp. or get it naturally, if there is some harmful side effect, I'd likely be subject to it without ever having taken it as a supp. Somehow it just doesn't feel as dangerous as Russian roulette to me.
I prefer to think of myself as a realistically cautious human, and I don't fret over every little potential mechanism of injury and illness, there are simply to many, and we all are going to die no matter how cautious we are. Hell, there are studies that show grilling meat produces carcinogens, I'm not giving that up either.
How Much Is Too Much? - National Academy of Science issues tolerable upper intake levels for nutritional supplements - Interview It starts right off with
Creatine monohydrate has been in use for a good number of decades now, and has been proven safe to this point. That there is a dosage point at which it could be harmful, I have no trouble excepting, but so far it has not been shown to be dangerous, and in fact, has a good "track record".
The impurities point you make is also a good one, and that one does concern me. judging by the FDA's role quite a bit of damage can be done before the gov. gets involved. From the research I did before deciding to take it, there appear to be 2 primary sources, China and Germany, not surprisingly the German stuff is the one of higher quality and purity, and is more expensive. The most reputable companies in the supp. industry evidently use the German stuff, and state that their creatine is 99.9% Pharmaceutical grade. That, and the lack of anecdotal evidence by the many thousands of users, is good enough for me. I guess that is the laugh in the face of danger, live on the razor's edge life we lead.
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