Using a car battery with an APC UPS

[EastGhostCom]

Shallow responses compel meaty reply.

We're running dozens of servers on several ancient APC BackUps Pro 1400 units using OPTIMA YELLOW batteries. Each BUP runs two or three stacked servers (up to 10 HDDs each, Quad Intel, etc. drawing amps - pushing the BUPs to near limits).

We, like most other American suckers, got burned once (though only once) by various Chinese "replacement" batteries and finally decided, more than a decade ago, to buy OPTIMAs.

Anyone who knows about PEPCO power in the Washington DC area knows it's among the very worst in the country (and possibly planet, yes, no joke, power goes out weekly and not just out but flickers and flashes for many minutes -- one extended event, Jan 2011, lasted over 3 days and the linux logs showed over 16,000 3-second brownouts - so PEPCO power is, well, total shit, but what do the bean counters here expect from a monopoly).

Anyway, under very stressful conditions that 99.9% of you reading or writing here will never suffer, we've run these dozens of servers on these several BackUps Pro 1400's, using the original OPTIMA YELLOW top batteries, for over ten years without any problem, with weekly power problems, most lasting over one hour, many lasting over four hours, some lasting for many days or even weeks at a time. Never a problem from the BackUps Pro 1400 units or the YELLOW TOPs, all of which are original and have never failed or given any reason to question them.

So it's annoying to wade the blab about this or that, theoretically this or maybe not, or be careful, or whatever. OPTIMA YELLOW batteries + APC BackUps Pro 1400 combination works well beyond all expectation. And that's from long, hard experience.

Our new sites will have OPTIMA BLUE and whatever is the relatively newer but stupidest APC large capacity 120V available, and we fully expect zero problems there as well.

Best regards from DC.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

I've been running some UPSes with deep cycle car batts for awhile now. No issues as well, aside from the inconvenience in a residential setting.

 

[doofoo]

Sorry to bump this thread but I had a few questions maybe those of you that are running the external batteries can help.

Those of you using SmartUPS Pro 1400, 2200's or whatever (with internal fan).

1) Are you utilizing the internal batteries, or do you just run the external batteries alone? How do you have things wired up?
2) I believe the 1400/2200, etc are 48VDC - Are you running 4 12V batteries in series, or even 8 in series + parallel?
3) What types of batteries and rated AH are you utilizing?
4) What type of runtime on xxx watt (you fill in here) are you seeing?
5) Were you able to modify the runtime of the unit displayed via SNMP/Monitoring applications? If so, what method did you use?
6) Any issues with overheating of the unit?

Anything else you can add would be much appreciated.

Basically I'm looking to get a couple SmartUPS Pro 1400, 2200 or a 3000 if possible with external battery packs to power a sub-panel which will have lights, computers, etc in my house before transfering over to generator.

Much appreciated!

 

[piasabird]

http://homepower.com/home/

Maybe you should look up some links at a site like homepower magazine. This magazine is all about solar power and related areas like generator, wind, chargers, and inverters. You have to have a way to charge the battery and to make usable power from the battery with an inverter or using a DC power supply. It is obvious that possibly you could just use DC power instead of using an inverter and power supply to reconvert the power back to DC for the computer.

Since a computer uses power at different voltages like 12v+-, 5v+-, 3V+-, etc then the conversion to diff voltages of DC is somewhat difficult. Intel made a motherboard that works like a Laptop, that might be a better candidate for lower voltage use. It is acutally the monitor which uses the most power, so powering a laptop might be the best idea. Some sites on the Internet sell Solar/emergency power kits.

Trojan sells batteries that are designed to be charged and recharged. However, car batteries are not designed to be charged and then depleted (Deep Cycle Battery). An alternative would be a battery like a Golf Cart Battery, which could be as powerful as 100-200 ah. These type of batteries are often sold at 6v.

The longer the wires you use the heavier gauge it should be. Electricity loses power due to resistance and wire length. So that is why many systes are set up to be 48V inverter. However, in a small scale, 12v is doable. The more batteries the more combined AH is available, the longer you can run in-between charges.

When you charge lead acid batteries they emit a gas, and they heat up. This gas can be combustible, contains acid, and is somewhat toxic. Proper ventilation required. The chargers are designed to charge as fast as possible without overheating the batteries. This makes less gassing and longer life for the batteries. Some people also just the sealed glass pack batteries, which are just a little harder to charge but require less maintenance and have a shorter life span.

Another source for this might be articles on electric cars or electric lawn mowers.

 

[doofoo]

http://homepower.com/home/

Maybe you should look up some links at a site like homepower magazine. This magazine is all about solar power and related areas like generator, wind, chargers, and inverters. You have to have a way to charge the battery and to make usable power from the battery with an inverter or using a DC power supply. It is obvious that possibly you could just use DC power instead of using an inverter and power supply to reconvert the power back to DC for the computer.

Since a computer uses power at different voltages like 12v+-, 5v+-, 3V+-, etc then the conversion to diff voltages of DC is somewhat difficult. Intel made a motherboard that works like a Laptop, that might be a better candidate for lower voltage use. It is acutally the monitor which uses the most power, so powering a laptop might be the best idea. Some sites on the Internet sell Solar/emergency power kits.

Trojan sells batteries that are designed to be charged and recharged. However, car batteries are not designed to be charged and then depleted (Deep Cycle Battery). An alternative would be a battery like a Golf Cart Battery, which could be as powerful as 100-200 ah. These type of batteries are often sold at 6v.

The longer the wires you use the heavier gauge it should be. Electricity loses power due to resistance and wire length. So that is why many systes are set up to be 48V inverter. However, in a small scale, 12v is doable. The more batteries the more combined AH is available, the longer you can run in-between charges.

When you charge lead acid batteries they emit a gas, and they heat up. This gas can be combustible, contains acid, and is somewhat toxic. Proper ventilation required. The chargers are designed to charge as fast as possible without overheating the batteries. This makes less gassing and longer life for the batteries. Some people also just the sealed glass pack batteries, which are just a little harder to charge but require less maintenance and have a shorter life span.

Another source for this might be articles on electric cars or electric lawn mowers.

Thanks for the site. I was actually looking to use the APC UPS to run things with a string of batteries - using the APC to recharge the unit.

I also have a Powerware Ferrups 18Kva which I have 4 new 12V 77AH batteries from (the other 6 went into a friends golfcart). So I have a few batteries to get me started.

The Powerware is just too big for my house, old and uses too much idle power. I'll just sell the unit with no batteries to fund my other UPS fun..

 

[Rubycon]

The Ferrups is a true power conditioner though. You will ALWAYS have rock solid power at its design frequency and voltage regardless of input. Sometimes that matters.

Biggest thing to remember is charging profiles. SLA and flooded Pb are completely different and as previously mentioned if your charger is not programmable to allow flooded Pb tech your batteries will be continuously overcharged and require near constant maintenance. (adding distilled water) Not to mention the proper venting...

Ferrups DO have programmable chargers btw.

An 18kVA ferro is pretty large for home use but if you have enough equipment that can benefit from its protection - cost of operation could be justified. It all boils down to how "dirty" your mains power is.

 

[doofoo]

The Ferrups is a true power conditioner though. You will ALWAYS have rock solid power at its design frequency and voltage regardless of input. Sometimes that matters.

Biggest thing to remember is charging profiles. SLA and flooded Pb are completely different and as previously mentioned if your charger is not programmable to allow flooded Pb tech your batteries will be continuously overcharged and require near constant maintenance. (adding distilled water) Not to mention the proper venting...

Ferrups DO have programmable chargers btw.

An 18kVA ferro is pretty large for home use but if you have enough equipment that can benefit from its protection - cost of operation could be justified. It all boils down to how "dirty" your mains power is.

When you say they have programmable charges what do you mean? I assume you mean for the type of batteries I intend to use?

When it was taken offline (batteries are only 1 1/2 years old) it had 10 12V 77AH C&D Technologies UPS12-300MR batteries (10 year design life)
http://www.powerprosinc.com/UPS12-3...utm_source=google-shopping&utm_medium=organic
Specs:
Float Charge Voltage: 13.5 to 13.8VDC

To get this guy back online I would need to get 6 batteries (about $1000 investment) to get the FerrUPS back online.

Is there any ways to tweak the unit to drop the idle usage?

My home usage - I have a TED5000 to monitor whole house usage)

Peak KW MTD:
15.043 kW on Sep 2

09/07 09:00
5.0 kWh
$ 0.59

09/07 08:00
4.0 kWh
$ 0.48

09/07 07:00
2.2 kWh
$ 0.26

09/07 06:00
2.1 kWh
$ 0.25

09/07 05:00
3.1 kWh
$ 0.36

09/07 04:00
1.4 kWh
$ 0.17

09/07 03:00
1.5 kWh
$ 0.18

09/07 02:00
1.2 kWh
$ 0.14

09/07 01:00
1.1 kWh
$ 0.14

09/07 00:00
1.5 kWh
$ 0.17

09/06 23:00
2.2 kWh
$ 0.26

09/06 22:00
4.0 kWh
$ 0.48

09/06 21:00
3.9 kWh
$ 0.47

09/06 20:00
2.2 kWh
$ 0.26

09/06 19:00
1.1 kWh
$ 0.14

09/06 18:00
1.4 kWh
$ 0.17

09/06 17:00
3.1 kWh
$ 0.37

09/06 16:00
4.0 kWh
$ 0.47

09/06 15:00
4.2 kWh
$ 0.50

09/06 14:00
3.0 kWh
$ 0.36

09/06 13:00
2.2 kWh
$ 0.26

09/06 12:00
2.9 kWh
$ 0.34

09/06 11:00
2.1 kWh
$ 0.24

09/06 10:00
2.0 kWh
$ 0.23


Basically looking at my usage - I could run my entire house on that UPS. I just don't want to get screwed with the idle usage of power. Also, it's currently setup for 208V Input - I think it's switchable to 240V for home use.

It's then setup for 120V/208V output - I think it's selectable on the output to 240V as well? How familiar are you with these models?

Edit - Here is the UPS BTW:

 

[Rubycon]

There is nothing to reduce "core losses" in FR designs. It's the penalty of galvanic isolation and the best power conditioning I suppose. It's far better than a motor-generator, though!

Battery chargers on those are programmable so you could use flooded batteries if you wish. Powering a whole house while possible isn't recommended.

Usually what's done is a decent sized double pole breaker is installed in the service entrance (say 60A). This in turn feeds the UPS directly. The output (load) side of the UPS then feeds a smaller panel with enough branch circuits you want to protect. These circuits are then wired back into the main panel and connected to the wires that were connected to the original breakers in that panel. This is also typically the way partial generator systems are installed. (vs. whole house with a full load transfer switch)

Speaking of generator you can also have a generator connected in a way so it charges the batteries. This arrangement known as a UBS or uninterruptable battery system - can keep protected loads on indefinitely if needed.

208V is derived from three phase power. 208V is phase to phase and 120V comes from phase to ground or neutral. This is different than a 120V/240V single phase, three wire system found in home residences in USA.

 

[bobdole369]

Hey Ruby, you ever seen a Mastervolt charger/inverter?

 

[Rubycon]

Hey Ruby, you ever seen a Mastervolt charger/inverter?

Can't say that I have.

 

[Googer]

APC overcharges for their batteries. I think that unit uses two batteries at about $20-30 each. My local BATTERIES PLUS (US and Canadian retail chain) charges about 40-50 dollars to to a full swap for a unit like that one. (i dont work for them).

http://www.batteriesplus.com/

 

[Meghan54]

Optima is a good known brand, aside from that I have no idea.

You should say Optima used to be a good, known brand of deep cycle battery. The boating forums I frequent are populated with people bitching about Optima batteries failing in a year or less. Seems Optima has done some cost cutting internally to the detriment of the longevity and durability of their batteries, at least the deep cycle ones I'm familiar with in boating.

 

[Gillbot]

You should say Optima used to be a good, known brand of deep cycle battery. The boating forums I frequent are populated with people bitching about Optima batteries failing in a year or less. Seems Optima has done some cost cutting internally to the detriment of the longevity and durability of their batteries, at least the deep cycle ones I'm familiar with in boating.

Post Date:
11-22-2009, 02:46 PM

Yeah, things can change after nearly 2 years. ;-)

 

[Mark R]

You don't need to use deep-cycle batteries on a UPS. Deep cycle batteries are designed for continuous recharge-discharge operation (e.g. in an RV, portable sound/communications equipment, industrial vehicles, fork lifts, etc.). UPSs don't do this. Instead, they continually trickle charge the batteries, and most discharges are shallow (most power glitches last a few seconds). This is a totally different situation to what deep cycle batteries are designed for.

Standby batteries use a different alloy composition for the plates, and different plate construction. The net result is that deep cycle batteries are much more expensive than standby batteries for the same energy capacity, and same 'shelf-life'. While a deep cycle will perform acceptably on a UPS, they may be unnecessarily expensive, if standby batteries are also available.

Note that a 'standby' battery is not the same as a car battery. Car batteries are designed for maximum low-temperature performance and maximum starting current. They do not tolerate discharge well. Additionally, car batteries may be valve-regulated, rather than sealed/gel like typical UPS batteries - these different chemistries have different electrical properties, which can lead to incorrect charging if the batteries are swapped.

 

[Rubycon]

You don't need to use deep-cycle batteries on a UPS. Deep cycle batteries are designed for continuous recharge-discharge operation (e.g. in an RV, portable sound/communications equipment, industrial vehicles, fork lifts, etc.). UPSs don't do this. Instead, they continually trickle charge the batteries, and most discharges are shallow (most power glitches last a few seconds). This is a totally different situation to what deep cycle batteries are designed for.

Standby batteries use a different alloy composition for the plates, and different plate construction. The net result is that deep cycle batteries are much more expensive than standby batteries for the same energy capacity, and same 'shelf-life'. While a deep cycle will perform acceptably on a UPS, they may be unnecessarily expensive, if standby batteries are also available.

Note that a 'standby' battery is not the same as a car battery. Car batteries are designed for maximum low-temperature performance and maximum starting current. They do not tolerate discharge well. Additionally, car batteries may be valve-regulated, rather than sealed/gel like typical UPS batteries - these different chemistries have different electrical properties, which can lead to incorrect charging if the batteries are swapped.

Everyone thinking about doing this should pay close attention to the part above since it's the most important (and commonly overlooked) thing when making these changes.

 

[Underoot]

I have an APC smart online UPS 48v 3kv (requires 4 batteries). Earlier I had gel batteries from duramp but probably the lot was faulty as they went bad. I want to replace them now.

Situation is that electricity outage in our area is 1 to 2 hrs after every 1 to 2 hours.

Any suggestions?

Should I go for acid lead batteries or gel batteries? Would deep cycle work given the situation above?

 

[Rubycon]

A duty cycle like that requires an external charger. The 3kVA SmartUPS requires close to 8 hours to brings its batteries back to a full charge after "run to empty".

 

[Googer]

double post, please delete.

 

[Googer]

Both APC and Tripplite offer external battery boxes for use on their XL models. Mine is a Tripplite SU1500XL ($500-600) with the option of daisy chaining more battery capacity, if I need it. I would recommend tripplite, because the quality is just as good as APC, but the cost of purchase and ownership is much lower.

Alternatively, If you need more runtime for your computer, I would suggest installing a special outlet (orange in color) connected to a generator which comes on automatically and powers only that outlet for the duration of the blackout.


http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtModelID=3300
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtModelID=2502

 

[Underoot]

I just got an external charger installed today on trial. Delta FR48V 2000W E.
I replaced my gel batteries with standard lead acid 100A 4 batteries to complete 48v for my smartUPS. let's see how this performs under the given circumstances.

My concern was batteries type. I wanted to consult before making an investment on Gel batteries or the one which is more suitable to my condition. I have my entire house except for the power circuits on UPS. Although at the time of load shedding (outage) I want 6 fans, 6 tube lights, 10-15 power savers 8-10w, 1 pc, 1 46" LCD, to run for at least 2-3 hours. This is not average load this is maximum load.

I'll run this setup for a week to see results. Then either I will upgrade my lead acid batteries to 165a or go for gel batteries.

Another issue is that in Pakistan we don't have much options in batteries and worse, dealers are not aware of the specs.

One option for gel batteries is vision 150ah for $266 and 200ah for $340. Another brand is Narada (150ah for $298 and 200ah for $383). With this option I can think of putting 1 refrigerator and a deep freezer or either 1 on ups too as with these outage hours I can't even make ice meat gets bad etc etc.

The lead acid 165 ah car battery is for $122 and 245 ah would be $192. These are local manufacturers so various options are available.

I would appreciate if someone could guide me with the batteries type and ah. I don't want to invest too much as with that money I can get a gen set . However I like the idea of ups better than gen set personally.

 

[Rubycon]

The SmartUPS charger is programmed for SLA. It will overcharge your flooded batteries which can cause a hazard if used indoors without proper venting. Hydrogen is explosive. Also the batteries will need constant topping off with distilled water. If they get too low and the plates are exposed their life expectancy will be greatly shortened as will their capacity.

 

[piasabird]

You might find some useful info in a mazine/website like this one dedicated to home power solar, wind, Water, generator, etc type of website.

http://homepower.com/home/

You mentioned a lot of things you need power for. If you have a PC that uses integrated video like a HTPC you might get it to run on less power. A gaming PC probably will drain quite a bit more power from just the video card and the monitor if it is large. Investing in some low power led lights might be worth it also. I have a couple of 40" TV's but I dont have a clue how much power they use. Fans are probably hit and miss.

A car battery is not designed to be used like a deep cell battery. You could just get something like a golf cart or a trolling motor battery. They often sell these at places like a wall-mart or they can be ordered. These batteries are designed to be repeatedly charged and drained (better to not use more than 80% of the charge). The other issue is that when you charge batteries they have a tendency to give off a toxic GAS. That is why for indoor use, you either need to use a sealed battery or have a venting system.

A lot of solar power people spend a lot of money on these types of batteries. I think the most common are the trojan 6 volt batteries. They sell batteries with a wide range of ratings for watt hrs. Usually the higher the watt hours, the more expensive they are. You might also look at what kind of batteries they use for EV's (Electric Vehicles).

Here is an interesting article:

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/back-up-power.html

This might give you some possible options and costs associated with the options.

http://www.trojanbattery.com/

 

[Red Squirrel]

Wow forgot about this post. I actually ended up buying an inverter-charger which is designed for this. Safer.

And according to my research the APCs are known to overcharge even their proper SLA batteries. (that's why they only last a few years).









I also have a hydrogen sensor on the way, for safety's sake. But since this is a standby system I don't think there will be enough hydrogen produced to be dangerous. That stuff dissipates faster than fans at a Soccer game shootout.

Also debating on getting 2 more batteries. 4 hour run time is nice, 8 hour would be even nicer. Most of the power outages last a few hours at most though. I did see some as long as 4 hours. It's a summer thing, because of all the construction in my area and the occasional storm.

 

[Tenacious]

I am using APC 3 KVA smart UPS with four 96 ah flooded battries. If you dont allow the battries to go below their 60% charge, they work well. I was even using my large size fridge besides the load mentioned by underoot. But one day due to long power outage the batteries were at lowest charge (one light of APC). So the batteries are not the same again. I feel they are now at 10-15 ah capacity. I checked the gravity. there were problems with few of the cells. Gave an equilization charge, but not much effect.
I have found that APC under charges the flooded batteries. Its charging voltage is less. its cutoff voltage is less (max 54 volts). Flooded battries require about 59 volts for charging.
Secondly vehicle batteries are not at all suitable for use with UPS. only one deep discharge and these are no good.
It would be ideal to use some other type of battery which is more forgiving to under or over charge (may be Nicad, which would be very expensive). therefore, AGM deep cycle seems to be a better choice.
If you use flooded type, then should equilize them after every deep discharge, which ofcourse is not good for the life of batteries

 

[Tenacious]

Underoot please share your experience, if you find some way around this problem.