US Version of Democracy is BROKEN, can it be fixed?

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C

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Laws are just getting more and more absurd.

Our next generation is going to be the worst ever. Just a mere 50 years ago it was acceptable to hit or spank a child as a form of punishment. This become politically incorrect, and the new punishment became "time out". Now even "time out" is considered to be abuse, and the standard daycare or school punishment for misbehavior is "doing nothing". That is right, there is no punishment at all for breaking most rules, until it gets to the point where the kid is asked to not return.

Cops, just read the newspaper. Killing innocent people because they mixed up the address on a warrant, holding people for days without trial or bail. This is probably related to the corrupt FOR-PROFIT prison systems, which require near maximum capacity at all times and encourage arrests and prison time for minor infractions.

The war on drugs. This is a war against the people of our country.


Those are just a few of the symptoms. Theoretically, the symptoms can be fixed by changing the laws. This is where the real cancer lies though.

There is ZERO accountability. We are forced to elect someone based on statements they make, but there isn't a damn thing to prevent a politician from saying one thing and doing another. It's a broken system.

Further...

7th Amendment gives the right to trial by jury. This is blatantly ignored in "terrorism" cases, which seem to be a catch-all category that can be used for almost any crime.

So, even if we can find an elect a politician who actually follows through with his promises, and even if the laws can be changed in our favor, there is no guarantee that the government will even follow through with it's own laws. If a constitutional amendment isn't important enough to follow, what is?



It's a broken system. It's time to wipe the slate clean and start over. US government 1.0 can't be fixed via service pack, you are going to have to upgrade to version 2.0
 
Ryan

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
"Cops, just read the newspaper. Killing innocent people because they mixed up the address on a warrant, holding people for days without trial or bail. This is probably partically related to the corrupt FOR-PROFIT prison systems, which require near maximum capacity at all times and encourage arrests and prison time for minor infractions."

Haha - you think any of that shit is new? As flawed as our justice system is, I would never want to be subjected to the justice system 50 years ago.
 
Texashiker

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
The US is not a Democracy, its a Republic.

Learning the difference is the first step to recovery.
 
C

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
In theory it falls under both definitions, in practice it falls under neither.

Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Democracy allows people to participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws.

A republic is a form of government in which the country is considered a "public matter" (Latin: res publica), not the private concern or property of the rulers, and where offices of states are subsequently directly or indirectly elected or appointed rather than inherited.
 
Texashiker

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Chiropteran said:
In theory it falls under both definitions, in practice it falls under neither.
Click to expand...

The point I was trying to make is that the voters are the ones to blame, and not the elected officials.

When the people keep voting the same idiots into office year after year, nothing is going to change.

If the people want real change, first they have to change the way they vote.

When a republic breaks, its not the government that breaks, its the people that are broken. The way we vote our elected officials into office (the two party system) is broken.
 
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Phokus

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Split the US in 2 or more parts. It's not working. The red states are dragging everyone else down.
 
C

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Texashiker said:
If the people want real change, first they have to change the way they vote.

When a republic breaks, its not the government that breaks, its the people that are broken. The way we vote our elected officials into office (the two party system) is broken.
Click to expand...

But there isn't any connection between the statements made when someone is trying to be elected and what he actually does after being elected.

Are you saying the people are failing because they can't predict the future and figure out which politicians will follow through with promises and which ones won't?
 
Texashiker

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Chiropteran said:
But there isn't any connection between the statements made when someone is trying to be elected and what he actually does after being elected.

Are you saying the people are failing because they can't predict the future and figure out which politicians will follow through with promises and which ones won't?
Click to expand...

You got to restaurant A, the service is lousy and the food is terrible.

You decide to go to restaurant B, the service is lousy and the food is terrible just like A.

Do you go back to A, or do you give C and D a try?

With voters logic, you keep going between A and B hoping things get better, while ignoring those new places down the road C and D.
 
C

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
So your logic is we should just try electing new parties at random until we find a good one? I don't think that would work either.
 
Texashiker

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Chiropteran said:
So your logic is we should just try electing new parties at random until we find a good one? I don't think that would work either.
Click to expand...

Voter logic, voting for the same 2 parties over and over and expecting real change.

Instead of one party having control of congress, wouldn't it make better sense to have 3 or 4 parties so that no one party could ramrod bills through?
 
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C

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
jackstar7 said:
So what's version 2.0? Or are you just talking at an empty chair?
Click to expand...

It would take a lot of people working together and discussing what the goals are and how to reach them.

To offer a thought, how about we dump congress and the president and instead use a direct voting method?

1 person, 1 vote

You can vote when you are considered an adult and have full adult rights. Currently in the US this is what, 21 because of drinking laws? I'd suggest it be changed to 18, most 18 year olds drink anyway might as well streamline the system.

Issues to be voted on can be brought up through a petition system. For example, 100 base votes to get onto a basic list of potential petitions, and then if it can get 100,000 votes in the basic petition system it'll go up on nationally for voting.

The OPTION to "follow" a politician voter much like you follow a twitterer, and see every vote that person does. Further, an option to automatically vote with a person you are following, with some delay. For example, your vote goes through 48 hours after the person you follow votes, so for an important issue where you want to manually vote instead of blindly following you have a 2 day window to change your vote, but for minor issues in which you trust the politician you are following you can leave the vote on auto.

There would be no elections or terms, but you would still have all the advantages of "electing" someone to make your decisions for you, if you feel you are incapable of making intelligent votes yourself. However, if the politician you elect to follow choose to vote contrary to how you think they should vote, you can instantly dump him and switch.


Yeah, that is just a rough idea, but I think it would be a big improvement over the current election system.
 
diesbudt

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
0
Chiropteran said:
Laws are just getting more and more absurd.

Our next generation is going to be the worst ever. Just a mere 50 years ago it was acceptable to hit or spank a child as a form of punishment. This become politically incorrect, and the new punishment became "time out". Now even "time out" is considered to be abuse, and the standard daycare or school punishment for misbehavior is "doing nothing". That is right, there is no punishment at all for breaking most rules, until it gets to the point where the kid is asked to not return.

Cops, just read the newspaper. Killing innocent people because they mixed up the address on a warrant, holding people for days without trial or bail. This is probably related to the corrupt FOR-PROFIT prison systems, which require near maximum capacity at all times and encourage arrests and prison time for minor infractions.

The war on drugs. This is a war against the people of our country.


Those are just a few of the symptoms. Theoretically, the symptoms can be fixed by changing the laws. This is where the real cancer lies though.

There is ZERO accountability. We are forced to elect someone based on statements they make, but there isn't a damn thing to prevent a politician from saying one thing and doing another. It's a broken system.

Further...

7th Amendment gives the right to trial by jury. This is blatantly ignored in "terrorism" cases, which seem to be a catch-all category that can be used for almost any crime.

So, even if we can find an elect a politician who actually follows through with his promises, and even if the laws can be changed in our favor, there is no guarantee that the government will even follow through with it's own laws. If a constitutional amendment isn't important enough to follow, what is?



It's a broken system. It's time to wipe the slate clean and start over. US government 1.0 can't be fixed via service pack, you are going to have to upgrade to version 2.0
Click to expand...

Actually I am pretty sure this is 2.0.

1.0 didn't last long after the revolution with the Articles or whatever they were called. Before the Constitution.
 
jackstar7

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Chiropteran said:
It would take a lot of people working together and discussing what the goals are and how to reach them.

To offer a thought, how about we dump congress and the president and instead use a direct voting method?

1 person, 1 vote

You can vote when you are considered an adult and have full adult rights. Currently in the US this is what, 21 because of drinking laws? I'd suggest it be changed to 18, most 18 year olds drink anyway might as well streamline the system.

Issues to be voted on can be brought up through a petition system. For example, 100 base votes to get onto a basic list of potential petitions, and then if it can get 100,000 votes in the basic petition system it'll go up on nationally for voting.

The OPTION to "follow" a politician voter much like you follow a twitterer, and see every vote that person does. Further, an option to automatically vote with a person you are following, with some delay. For example, your vote goes through 48 hours after the person you follow votes, so for an important issue where you want to manually vote instead of blindly following you have a 2 day window to change your vote, but for minor issues in which you trust the politician you are following you can leave the vote on auto.

There would be no elections or terms, but you would still have all the advantages of "electing" someone to make your decisions for you, if you feel you are incapable of making intelligent votes yourself. However, if the politician you elect to follow choose to vote contrary to how you think they should vote, you can instantly dump him and switch.


Yeah, that is just a rough idea, but I think it would be a big improvement over the current election system.
Click to expand...

Check out California's Ballot Initiative system and you might re-think your petition system.

Also, I disagree completely. People don't have time to govern themselves properly. They are overworked by their jobs as it is.
 
C

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
jackstar7 said:
Check out California's Ballot Initiative system and you might re-think your petition system.

Also, I disagree completely. People don't have time to govern themselves properly. They are overworked by their jobs as it is.
Click to expand...

That is interesting about California's system but not the same thing.

Switzerland is one of the richest countries in the world by per capita gross domestic product, and has the highest wealth per adult (financial and non-financial assets) of any country in the world. It also has one of the lowest tax rates.

Switzerland also uses direct democracy as form of government. So, just because California's implementation has failed horribly doesn't mean the concept is flawed.


And no part of the system requires everyone to govern themselves. You can follow a politician you agree with and let him decide where your votes go if you so choose.
 
M

mizzou

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2008
9,734
54
91
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

- Socrates


Our Democracy is not broken, but the more people fucking tinker with it it sure as hell will be.
 
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S

soulcougher73

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
15,858
4,410
136
It can only be fixed by a hostile take over of our current government. People will die and things will get better :p
 
C

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
mizzou said:
I drive a car that works perfectly fine. I want to make it faster. I broke it while trying to make it faster.
Click to expand...

Not the same. The founding fathers designed our government with the intention that it be "tinkered" with. The system of creating and changing laws, constitutional amendments, etc, that is working as intended.

Your car manufacturer did not intend for you as an end user to mess with your car.
 
Modelworks

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
It was based on a failed system , Roman Empire, and little was done to implement protection against what made the first system fail. We are going down in the same way they did thousands of years ago, too much spending, corrupt leaders, too many wars in different areas, etc.

To fix the system , well you can't, it is too late for that. It will continue until it collapses under its own weight.
I think the best form of government is what was intended, lots of small governments (states), belonging to a larger whole. The problem is we let the larger whole have too much control.
 
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