US troops allegedly fire on crowd 10 dead

[yowolabi]

Originally posted by: Staley8

Originally posted by: Marshallj
I've noticed that going out of your way to help someone usually opens up a whole can of worms. Usually it's just easier to ignore their problems.

We should stay out of those countries and let their people suffer. That way they can't blame us when things go wrong.

Just ignore them and let them deal with their own problems, with their own money.

I agree, I mean this story must be true b/c "allegedly" it happened. We should just close our borders and worry about the US only. Forget the rest of the world everyone is now on their own. "Oh, you have a huge famine or outbreak of disease, we're sorry, we only worry about ourselves now, didn't you get the memo?" Allegedly BarneyFife was seen trying to stir up a flame war b/c he had no truth to his statements. Witnesses say, "It was an ugly scene, the anti-war and pro-war posters were becoming increasing hostile towards each other and BarneyFife was just typing away with little or no regard to anyone else, the horror", another witness exclaimed, "He's done it before and he'll do it again I'm sure, when will it end?".....alledgedly

The incident happened. See jjones's link. The US military has commented on it. The details are in dispute though. Posting a link to a news article on a news site isn't a flame war. Earlier today someone pro-war posted a link to a partisan site that criticized all leftists. That was flamebait. The anti-war people pretty much let the pro-war side talk to themselves until they got tired.

I keep hearing pro-war people saying that posting something will cause a flame war. That's only because certain people only respond to things they don't agree with by flaming. It's not what's being posted, it's the people that try to drown out any dissenting opinion with insults instead of debate.

Yes, we don't have all the information yet. And this thread will still be here when we do. People post developing information all the time. The second a soldier runs into a rock with trace amounts of radioactivity, a post appears here talking about a possible smoking gun. Things are posted, things are debated, things are proven true or untrue.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
double post....


Jani puts me on his iggy list because thats the only way he can justify not having answers to questions. I love all the US bashing, hey guys, FvCK you already......

That makes 2 people today. What's up with people putting you on their ignore list?

 

[Alistar7]

We have been fortunate in some regards to having information from the field (embedded reporters) so quickly, before it even hits the print media, but it is not always true,and often changed as more facts become available.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Alistar7
double post....


Jani puts me on his iggy list because thats the only way he can justify not having answers to questions. I love all the US bashing, hey guys, FvCK you already......

That makes 2 people today. What's up with people putting you on their ignore list?

They can't admit the facts don't agree with what they BELIEVE, so they ignore it, lol, great logical strategy...

Being iggied by trolls like Jani is hardly a major loss either.... I can still read his insightfull posts though..

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: yowolabiThe incident happened. See jjones's link. The US military has commented on it. The details are in dispute though. Posting a link to a news article on a news site isn't a flame war.

No it isn't. But this is:

"Ten liberated Iraqis..."

"Yes, this is democracy. We'll make sure they get freedom, even if we have to shove it down their throats."

"When there's enough suffering local people will start revolting. Apparently situation wasn't so bad in Iraq."

All on an unsubstantiated story. I've said it before and I will say it again...both sides should wait until confirmation.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Alistar7
double post....


Jani puts me on his iggy list because thats the only way he can justify not having answers to questions. I love all the US bashing, hey guys, FvCK you already......

That makes 2 people today. What's up with people putting you on their ignore list?

They can't admit the facts don't agree with what they BELIEVE, so they ignore it, lol, great logical strategy...

Being iggied by trolls like Jani is hardly a major loss either.... I can still read his insightfull posts though..

Are you sure that's it? I wonder if any of the other prowar peeps have been put on peoples ignore list for posting facts.

 

[Helenihi]

Originally posted by: Jani
You used Hitler card, you lose. http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html

Actually, you used the Godwin's law card, you lose. It is immensely stupid to think that anytime someone brings up ww2 their argument is automatically invalid.

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: yowolabi
Yes, we don't have all the information yet. And this thread will still be here when we do. People post developing information all the time. The second a soldier runs into a rock with trace amounts of radioactivity, a post appears here talking about a possible smoking gun. Things are posted, things are debated, things are proven true or untrue.

One side jumps at the chance to blame Saddam for something everyone knows he did...even he has admitted to having WMD.

The other side jumps at the chance to blame our soldiers for executing innocents.

I guess I'm content with the side I chose. Perhaps that makes me a nutjob nationalist but I believe our leaders and troops are good people. I don't think the most ardent anti-war person would try and make that case for Saddam.

I also think the Iraqi's are good people. There are several examples of how they risked their lives to take care of our POW's.

 

[Judgement]

Originally posted by: Helenihi

Originally posted by: Jani
You used Hitler card, you lose. http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html

Actually, you used the Godwin's law card, you lose. It is immensely stupid to think that anytime someone brings up ww2 their argument is automatically invalid.

Agreed. Thats a poor excuse made up by those who can't counter the argument.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: Alistar7


They want us there, did you miss the crowds cheering and welcoming our forces?

Guess you missed how they're already protesting

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Alistar7


They want us there, did you miss the crowds cheering and welcoming our forces?

Guess you missed how they're already protesting

Flavio if you are going to try to make an issue out of that, at least find ONE MORE PIC,lol, youre just using the same one over and over again, how many clones did they make of that guy anyway???

wow, one guy, guess you were right...

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Alistar7


They want us there, did you miss the crowds cheering and welcoming our forces?

Guess you missed how they're already protesting

flavio, why don't you post a relevent news article rather than a lame photo. That photo is easily countered by someone posting another of a jubilant crowd with signs that say "We :heart: Bush". Often it is said that a photo is worth a thousand words but in this case, I'm afraid not. Your arguement looks pretty weak if that's all you have. Do you have any information about large crowds protesting US occupation, or is it just small crowds upset about the lack of services at the moment?

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Alistar7


They want us there, did you miss the crowds cheering and welcoming our forces?

Guess you missed how they're already protesting

flavio, why don't you post a relevent news article rather than a lame photo. That photo is easily countered by someone posting another of a jubilant crowd with signs that say "We :heart: Bush". Often it is said that a photo is worth a thousand words but in this case, I'm afraid not. Your arguement looks pretty weak if that's all you have. Do you have any information about large crowds protesting US occupation, or is it just small crowds upset about the lack of services at the moment?

Happy to oblige.....more protest pictures....and a story from another protest.

 

[TheNinja]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Alistar7


They want us there, did you miss the crowds cheering and welcoming our forces?

Guess you missed how they're already protesting

flavio, why don't you post a relevent news article rather than a lame photo. That photo is easily countered by someone posting another of a jubilant crowd with signs that say "We :heart: Bush". Often it is said that a photo is worth a thousand words but in this case, I'm afraid not. Your arguement looks pretty weak if that's all you have. Do you have any information about large crowds protesting US occupation, or is it just small crowds upset about the lack of services at the moment?

Happy to oblige.....more protest pictures....and a story from another protest.

Hey just like all you anti-war people say "they are just small incidences, and the pic is just two people holding a sign, big whoop." Besides they probably don't know what they are doing or what they are protesting they just like to complain....I guess they must have been taking too many lessons from the anti-war hippies in the US, they truely are becoming westernize.

 

[Judgement]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Alistar7


They want us there, did you miss the crowds cheering and welcoming our forces?

Guess you missed how they're already protesting

flavio, why don't you post a relevent news article rather than a lame photo. That photo is easily countered by someone posting another of a jubilant crowd with signs that say "We :heart: Bush". Often it is said that a photo is worth a thousand words but in this case, I'm afraid not. Your arguement looks pretty weak if that's all you have. Do you have any information about large crowds protesting US occupation, or is it just small crowds upset about the lack of services at the moment?

Happy to oblige.....more protest pictures....and a story from another protest.

IMO the first picture you posted could easily be in Iran and it doesn't show that the Iraqis protesting America have sufficent numbers.

As for the second, IMO protesting the poor protection of Iraqi museums is not the same as wanting the U.S. out of the country. I'm sure the people would rather give up their right to protest and be back under Saddam's regime if they knew the their cultural sites would return to the way they were before the war?

Heritage is important, but being able to LIVE your life FREELY in the absence of TERROR seems just a tad bit more important...

I'm not saying that there aren't Iraqis protesting U.S. being in their country, but I do believe they are a minority compared to those who are happy we're there. Of course that majority/minority stance could shift fairly quickly if Iraqi citizens do not get steps towards a new government that they find acceptable.

 

[freakflag]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Alistar7


They want us there, did you miss the crowds cheering and welcoming our forces?

Guess you missed how they're already protesting

flavio, why don't you post a relevent news article rather than a lame photo. That photo is easily countered by someone posting another of a jubilant crowd with signs that say "We :heart: Bush". Often it is said that a photo is worth a thousand words but in this case, I'm afraid not. Your arguement looks pretty weak if that's all you have. Do you have any information about large crowds protesting US occupation, or is it just small crowds upset about the lack of services at the moment?

Happy to oblige.....more protest pictures....and a story from another protest.

I hate to say this, but, except for the last picture, I can't count more than 5 guys in any of those. And I don't see any anti-US signs in the last one...just an Iraqi flag. Half those people are smiling. I'd bet that if I gave away a million dollars to every man, woman, and child in this country, there'd be 5 guys who would protest. Got any more?

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: flavio

Happy to oblige.....more protest pictures....and a story from another protest.

I'll just address the article you posted here. The pics, I can probably post photos of people rejoicing the American overthrow of Saddam on a ratio of 10:1.

Interesting part of that article is this:

However, after the Marines were turned back by the morning protest, two men who claimed to be Abbas representatives came to the makeshift military headquarters in Kut and said they weren't in control of the protesters and they had nothing against the American presence, Malone said.

As I posted in another thread where you use the same articles and same photo: I also seem to recall that some forces were headed towards a mosque perhaps a week ago and were stopped by a large group. It turns out it was just a misunderstanding then also. These people have a big mistrust of the US forces being there, perhaps somewhat warranted given the circumstances, but if we can continue to show them that we want them on the road to self-governance, these sorts of things will hopefully diminish.

You may recall that the marines were going to a mosque to meet with a cleric and people swarmed around them to prevent that. The marines knelt in front of the crowd to show they were not their enemy are were not trying to do anything bad. Until the people gain confidence and trust, these kinds of things will happen. If they escalate, then you have a case for your point. At the moment though I think you like to grasp at anything to justify your feelings about how wrong this action in Iraq was. And at the moment, your argument continues to be very weak.

edit: spelin

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: Staley8
Besides they probably don't know what they are doing or what they are protesting they just like to complain...

Nice, so you would just like to discount any Iraqi that doesn't agree with what you think should be going on over there as "not knowing what they are doing".

Ridiculous.

 

[TheNinja]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Staley8
Besides they probably don't know what they are doing or what they are protesting they just like to complain...

Nice, so you would just like to discount any Iraqi that doesn't agree with what you think should be going on over there as "not knowing what they are doing".

Ridiculous.

Flavio, please don't pick parts of my posts and quote them out of context. If you would have continued to quote me you would have seen a little sarcasm in there, "Besides they probably don't know what they are doing or what they are protesting they just like to complain....I guess they must have been taking too many lessons from the anti-war hippies in the US, they truely are becoming westernize". My point was that both sides continue to argue that the other sides protestors are just made up by the media or isolated instances. See I can pick and choose certain words from your post too......"Nice Iraq agree with you not ridiculous"

 

[Judgement]

As I posted in another thread where you use the same articles and same photo: I also seem to recall that some forces were headed towards a mosque perhaps a week ago and were stopped by a large group. It turns out it was just a misunderstanding then also. These people have a big mistrust of the US forces being there, perhaps somewhat warranted given the circumstances, but if we can continue to show them that we want them on the road to self-governance, these sorts of things will hopefully diminish.

You may recall that the marines were going to a mosque to meet with a cleric and people swarmed around them to prevent that. The marines knelt in front of the crowd to show they were not their enemy are were not trying to do anything bad. Until the people gain confidence and trust, these kinds of things will happen. If they escalate, then you have a case for your point. At the moment though I think you like to grasp at anything to justify your feelings about how wrong this action in Iraq was. And at the moment, your argument continues to be very weak.

Very solid, well thought out argument. I also believe this is whats happening in most of the reported "Iraqi protesting" stories.

Only time will tell the truth though; we'll just have to see if these protests escalate, decline, or stay the same and whether or not they are misunderstandings or not. I believe its entirely possible the number of protests against the US could continue to increase if steps aren't made to prove the legitamicy of US intentions of helping Iraq make a government for itself.

If the number of protests against the US escales then the situation needs to be examined more thoroughly. If it declines then it was obviously nothing more then a few straglers to begin with.. nothing to do with the opinion held by the majority of Iraqis.

IMO if the number of protests stays the same then it can be ignored. It seems obvious to me that if the current number of protesters against America in Iraq does not increase, they are nothing more then a fairly small minority in Iraq.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: Staley8

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Staley8
Besides they probably don't know what they are doing or what they are protesting they just like to complain...

Nice, so you would just like to discount any Iraqi that doesn't agree with what you think should be going on over there as "not knowing what they are doing".

Ridiculous.

Flavio, please don't pick parts of my posts and quote them out of context. If you would have continued to quote me you would have seen a little sarcasm in there, "Besides they probably don't know what they are doing or what they are protesting they just like to complain....I guess they must have been taking too many lessons from the anti-war hippies in the US, they truely are becoming westernize". My point was that both sides continue to argue that the other sides protestors are just made up by the media or isolated instances. See I can pick and choose certain words from your post too......"Nice Iraq agree with you not ridiculous"

You know you're right, the extra words completely changed the meaning. <- see I can use sarcasm.

 

[phillyTIM]

Well things are sure off to a good start?!! LOL

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Well things are sure off to a good start?!! LOL

Enjoying the prospect of people being shot is disgusting but your agenda obviously takes precedence over common decency.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: Tiles2Tech

Wow. Is this really democracy? Putting in a puppet governor and then shooting at the crowd when they become hostile? It's obvious that they don't want us there.

Um, 10 protestors don't equate to a majority. The majority of Iraqi citizens want us there. Until the ratios change, we're not going anywhere anytime soon.

Thanks for another "Leftist" post, Barney.

What evidence do you have that most Iraqis want us there? Fox News?

 

[phillyTIM]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce


What evidence do you have that most Iraqis want us there? Fox News?

Thank goodness the Internet allows us access to other foreign news resources.

Have you found that news.bbc.co.uk is pretty neutral and factual? That seems to be my favorite news source.