US sells F-16s to Pakistan

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: cirrrocco
raildogg

well LCA was supposed to replace the migs but there is a time constraint. The first plane is expected to be rolling off frm the plants only at the end of the decade. infact testing is still goin on and PV1 is uet to be released. PV1 is the weaponized version and was supposed to have been airborne last month. delays are expectred and the airforce does not want to wait till 2008 and then find out its only gonna get 10 plans a year.

and regarding mki the total airframes are supposed to be 140. but thats gonna be completed only by the end of 2014. So india is expected to recieve only around 20 MKI a year.

Bt as of now 2 swaudrons are equipped with MKI..one oin pune and another in i think jaisalmer (someone correct me)

yes, the Indian Air Force has ordered about 20, but in reality the number is 40, LCA's that will be delivered by or a little bit before the end of the decade. the code name for the LCA is "Tejas"

The contract for the MKI's total production and aquirement is 190 I believe

Originally posted by: Yellow Dog
How can Bush allow that. Bush says that the export of jobs to other countries is good for the economy, and if Pakistan invades India won't that hurt the US economy, because all those jobs will have to come back to the US.

OH, yea, this is a Bush says situation, and nothing that fool says makes sense

Pakistan invade India? Thats a first.

The F-16 deal with Pakistan has little or no strategic value and does not change the balance of power. India almost immediately bough 12 or so Mirage 2000's on top of its decision to buy 126 Multirole combat jets.

Your post seems really confused and factually incorrect.

Pakistan's thinking is how to defend itself from India. It thinks from a defensive viewpoint.

 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: raildogg

Pakistan invade India? Thats a first.

They've both invaded each other first at different times.

Currently, Pakistan is thinking from a defensive position. Thats the only way it even has a chance of even competing in a conventional war. In 1965, India and Pakistan were completely different and India was not a world player that it is today. Pakistan believed that it could take Kashmir away from India and invaded it.

The Pakistanis believed that the hindu Indians wouldn't have the will to fight and win, but they were proven wrong. The war was basically a draw but the Pakistanis suffered the most.

The 1971 war was fought because India gave aid to the Benladeshis who wanted to break away Pakistan, and with the help of India, they did. It should be noted that the Soviet Union was a major ally of India throughout all these wars and the US either sided with Pakistan or remained neutral.

India basically blockaded Pakistan in that war. The Indian Air Force dominated the Pakistan Air Force in the 1971 war I believe.

According to almost all experts, all the India-Pakistan wars were either won by India or were a draw.
 

athithi

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2002
1,717
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: raildogg

Pakistan invade India? Thats a first.

They've both invaded each other first at different times.

When did India invade Pakistan first? In '47, '65, '71 and '99, Pakistan invaded first - and lost in '47, '71 and '99 and was headed for defeat in '65 when a UN mandated cease-fire was enforced, resulting in a stalemate.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: athithi
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: raildogg

Pakistan invade India? Thats a first.

They've both invaded each other first at different times.

When did India invade Pakistan first? In '47, '65, '71 and '99, Pakistan invaded first - and lost in '47, '71 and '99 and was headed for defeat in '65 when a UN mandated cease-fire was enforced, resulting in a stalemate.

I thought they invaded first in '65. Sorry, I was thinking of something else.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
2,847
0
0
Here's an idea guys,

What if these arms sales are a reward for Pakistan and India's recent progress in their peace talks?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Here's an idea guys,

What if these arms sales are a reward for Pakistan and India's recent progress in their peace talks?

The reward for peace talks are weapons?
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Here's an idea guys,

What if these arms sales are a reward for Pakistan and India's recent progress in their peace talks?

The reward for peace talks are weapons?

Whatever works. I'm just putting this out there as a possibility. We don't have enough info one way or the other to know what goes on between Musharef and Bush, and these planes could be a reward for help in the war on terror, and for the recent rapprochement with India.

Let's face it, since they got nukes, Pakistan and India were the world's greatest security threats. Well, N.Korea may be up there now.

To the person who poopooed the Eisenhower speech, since arms are usually purchased by governments, that is money that is stolen from the people. Remember, every penny the government takes, it does so on the backs of it's citizens. If that money isn't spent in a way that improves the lot of it's citizens in the best way possible, it is stolen.
 

athithi

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2002
1,717
0
0
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Here's an idea guys,

What if these arms sales are a reward for Pakistan and India's recent progress in their peace talks?

The reward for peace talks are weapons?

Whatever works. I'm just putting this out there as a possibility. We don't have enough info one way or the other to know what goes on between Musharef and Bush, and these planes could be a reward for help in the war on terror, and for the recent rapprochement with India.

Let's face it, since they got nukes, Pakistan and India were the world's greatest security threats. Well, N.Korea may be up there now.

To the person who poopooed the Eisenhower speech, since arms are usually purchased by governments, that is money that is stolen from the people. Remember, every penny the government takes, it does so on the backs of it's citizens. If that money isn't spent in a way that improves the lot of it's citizens in the best way possible, it is stolen.


:barf; Seriously, Westerners need to stop thinking of India (and Pakistan, for that matter) as errant school boys. India has never been a security threat to the world. India developed nuclear weapons to safeguard itself against nuclear-armed China to which it badly lost a war in 1962 and continues to have a lot of territorial disputes. India has a no-first-use policy against Pakistan, even after Pakistan has openly declared that it would use nuclear weapons against India first in the face of defeat. That threat by itself has been a very successful strategy for Pakistan - not to remain independent, but to continue aiding and supporting militancy in Kashmir. India has no territorial designs on Pakistan. Even the remaining portion of Kashmir claimed by India is not a part of Pakistan - it is called Azad Kashmir and has its own "Prime Minister".

Clubbing India along with Pakistan and N.Korea as world threats is a fantastic twist of reality.

If the U.S were so righteous is doling out rewards for Pakistan's good behaviour, which it discovered strangely right after India first offered the U.S full (and I mean full, including allowing it to launch military operations into Afghanistan from India - unprecedented!) co-operation a few days after Sep 11, 2001, then the U.S should've been just as righteous in punishing Pakistan for exporting nuclear technology to Iran, Libya and N.Korea.

Rewarding Pakistan for its role in the WoT with F-16s is just BS. As I pointed out earlier, Pakistan has been the aggressor in all the wars between India and Pakistan. And Pakistan has lost virtually every time. So, if Pakistan wants to stop losing to India, there are two ways to go about it. Make Pakistan really strong so it can finally win when it attacks India again. Or better yet, get Pakistan to stop attacking India in the first place. The U.S in all its wisdom appears to be trying out the first option right now. Arming Pakistan has always resulted in that empowerment flowing to other dictatorial/tyrannical regimes. I don't think Pakistan is going to directly harm the U.S post-9/11. But Pakistan is in bed with some pretty unsavoury regimes (ironically, so is the U.S). Don't be surprised when they come calling.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
12,009
320
126
I think we should pile up some good options for both Pakistan and India, to keep them balanced against each other but overbalanced in relationship to China. Beefing up India is sure to send China into yet another spending spree. Their economy couldn't take it. We really need to get China to play some of its strategic cards out sooner than later. You do realize it was their post-Iraq War sweet deals with Russia than sent oil prices in Europe through the roof? Pretty crappy of them to take advantage of Europe's precarious oil supply conditions like that.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Analysis of sales to India and Pakistan
Fort Worth Star-Telegram

<CLIP>

By offering to sell Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan and India, the U.S. government is trying to cultivate alliances with two countries that not only dislike each other but also have nuclear weapons.

Some observers have questioned the wisdom of selling the jets to either nation, saying it would add to their arms race.

But foreign-policy experts experienced in the region say the Bush administration needs to walk this geopolitical tightrope to cultivate friends in a vital part of the world.

The United States needs a friendly, stable Pakistan to remain a bulwark in the war on terrorism. Better relations with India are desirable because it is a rising global economic power and, some say, a potential military counterbalance to China.

"We need to have a very solid set of ties in the region," said Frank Wisner, U.S. ambassador to India from 1994 to 1997. "These are the two major players."

It remains to be seen whether the U.S. overtures to Pakistan and India will result in a boon for sales of F-16s that would keep the airplane's production line in Fort Worth running through 2010 or longer.

Consummating a sale of 24 F-16s to Pakistan is likely, experts say, but persuading India to buy the U.S. jets could be more difficult.

Pakistan has older F-16s in its arsenal. Congress barred a pending order for more jets in 1990 because of Pakistan's pursuit of nuclear weapons. India, which was long friendly with the Soviet Union, has not bought U.S. planes. The U.S. cut off arms sales to India in 1998 after its nuclear tests.

U.S. relationships with India and Pakistan have been rocky in the past. Or, as Wisner put it, "uneven is about the nicest thing you could say." Succeeding U.S. administrations have sanctioned both nations for pursuing nuclear weapons.

But times have changed. Relations between the United States and India have improved since the end of the Cold War. India and Pakistan, each of which has enough nuclear weapons to mortally wound the other, seem to be willing to coexist.

It wouldn't be the first time the U.S. government, professing an interest in maintaining a balance of power, has sold jets to two countries whose first inclination would be fight each other.

Greece and Turkey, historical and potential future adversaries, are among the 21 nations now flying F-16s. Israel and Egypt were allowed to purchase the jets after the 1978 Camp David peace accord.

Indian officials voiced only muted protests over the announcement last week that President Bush had approved selling the jets to Pakistan.

"India won the [conventional] arms race some time ago," said Stephen Cohen, a Brookings Institution scholar and former State Department official. India's air force is far larger, so selling Pakistan 24 F-16s will do little to alter the balance of power.

Selling fighters to Pakistan is "on balance a good idea," Cohen said, "if we can use this to enhance our leverage" on Gen. Pervez Musharraf and his government.

Musharraf should be rewarded for his cooperation against al Qaeda and the Taliban, Cohen said. Strengthening Pakistan is necessary to prevent the government from falling and being succeeded by a radical Islamist government that would provide a haven for terrorists, he said.

The quid pro quo, Cohen said, must include continued cooperation in the war against terrorism, curtailing the spread of nuclear weapons by renegade Pakistani scientists and democratization of Pakistan's political system.

The Bush administration has leverage with Pakistan that the United States hasn't had in the past, Cohen said. Even better, it has the "option of moving toward India, which we didn't have before."

The Soviet Union's demise led to a thaw in U.S.-India relations. The Indian government and military have cooperated with the State Department and Pentagon in toppling the Taliban and beginning to rebuild Afghanistan.

"We need a strategic relationship with India, no doubt in my mind," said Wisner, now vice chairman of external affairs for insurance giant AIG.

India has asked Lockheed and Boeing, through the U.S. government, for information on possible purchases of the F-16 or F/A-18 jets. But the competition for that business will also include Russia and France, both of which have long supplied warplanes to India.

Indian officials, who are shopping for up to 126 modern fighters, could conclude that the costs and complications involved in buying, operating and maintaining either U.S. aircraft would be higher than adding to their fleets of Russian or French planes.

"There's also the issue of trust and confidence," Wisner said. "We've offered arms to India in the past, then cut them off."

For all those reasons, closing a deal with India for F-16s could be a long shot, said Richard Aboulafia, aerospace industry analyst with the Teal Group in Fairfax, Va.

"But on the other hand, it's hard to beat" the combat record of the F-16, he said, which is still the world's best, most-effective fighter plane.

With its backlog of F-16 orders down to about 200 planes, Lockheed would love to have a deal with Pakistan signed by October. That's when the first slots in the production line will begin to open up.

Lockheed cut several hundred jobs on the F-16 production line last year and has announced plans to trim an additional 1,000 this year. Without more orders, additional jobs would undoubtedly be lost.

But the process of selling arms to foreign nations can be a torturous one, involving delicate negotiations between buying countries, and the Pentagon and State Department. Congress can also vote to block a sale.

"This is a government-to-government process," said Lockheed spokesman Joe Stout, "but we're ready to assist in any way we can."
 

athithi

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2002
1,717
0
0
Musharraf should be rewarded for his cooperation against al Qaeda and the Taliban, Cohen said. Strengthening Pakistan is necessary to prevent the government from falling and being succeeded by a radical Islamist government that would provide a haven for terrorists, he said.

Musharraf is not immortal. There is going to be a Pakistan without Musharraf someday. What's the gameplan for that?

Strengthening a military Pakistan without strengthening democracy in Pakistan could result in a very strong military machine in the hands of Islamic radicals if they ever manage to grab power. Pakistan has also shown very little ethics towards non-proliferation and stregthening its power without strengthening its purpose is almost certainly going to result in that power being misused or shared with others who are *cough*N.KoreaIranLibya*cough* inimical to U.S interests.

The Bush administration has leverage with Pakistan that the United States hasn't had in the past, Cohen said. Even better, it has the "option of moving toward India, which we didn't have before."

The Bush administration has leverage with Musharraf, hardly with Pakistan. Frankly, I admire Musharraf's guts - not many would last an hour in his shoes. Though Pakistan has a history of strong-willed generals like Yahya Khan, Zia ul Haq and Musharraf, it is impossible to expect that the next one won't cede power to the radicals. The Bush administration's strategy is extremely short-sighted and hinges on the hope that Musharraf will last till the WoT is won or will be replaced by another US-friendly General who has the same vice-like grip on Pakistan or that Pakistan will overturn 60 years of history to become a model Democratic state by the time Musharraf's reign is up.

None of this is going to happen. It is more likely that Musharraf will be replaced by a pro-radical Islamic government or by a weaker dictator who quickly cedes power to extremists or an even weaker democratic government (highly unlikely, given the current situation) that will have all the newly gained money and power bestowed upon it by the U.S, but will still be without the wisdom to use it appropriately.

The strongest purpose in Pakistan today is that of Islamic fundamentalism followed by military grandstanding. I am not arguing about whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. But it is definitely not what the U.S wants. That core purpose must be changed in Pakistan before empowering it with more weapons. Pakistan should desire economic prosperity. It should desire non-military technological advancements. It should desire a state-of-the-art healthcare system.

The only remote reason Pakistan could fear that India might attack it and the U.S might not intervene is if Pakistan suspects that the U.S might just be a tad bit happy if Pakistan were disabled from using the Islamic nuclear bomb. The best way for Pakistan to get rid of that fear is to move towards democracy and away from radical Islam. Other than this, I laugh at anybody who suggests that Pakistan is in any danger from India and thus in need of parity. It has never been. Inspite of attacking India 4 times and losing each time.

"This is a government-to-government process," said Lockheed spokesman Joe Stout, "but we're ready to assist in any way we can."

I hear slow violins playing and tinkling bells and the feel the euphoria of Lockheed assisting three nations plotting the destruction of the planet....:disgust:
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
12,009
320
126
Did you ever consider that the F-16's would be used on the fringe enemy at his own doorstep?
 

athithi

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2002
1,717
0
0
Originally posted by: MadRat
Did you ever consider that the F-16's would be used on the fringe enemy at his own doorstep?

Are you suggesting that Musharraf would use these F-16s against the Taliban or extremists in Pakistan? Are you implying that the F-16s would actually help resolve the terrorist issues in Pakistan. Perhaps he will also bomb some extremist madrassas with the F-16s while he's at it :p

If the strongest nation in the world with a gazillion F-16s could not wipe out terrorism from Afghanistan, is there any chance that Pakistan could achieve it with a few dozen F-16s in Musharraf's lifetime? The fallacy is in believing that conventional military power can defeat terrorism. Ask India in Kashmir. Ask Sri Lanka in Jaffna. Ask Israel in Palestine.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
12,009
320
126
Pakistan barely has a sustainable air force for the rather large area of real estate there. Its going to take an excess number of planes to be able to threaten the warlords that straddle Musharraf's civilization. Pakistan is still largely a subset of smaller nations that is loosely protected by a unified military force. That military force is not enough to balance itself with its own internal forces let alone its neighbor.
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
Originally posted by: MadRat
Pakistan barely has a sustainable air force for the rather large area of real estate there. Its going to take an excess number of planes to be able to threaten the warlords that straddle Musharraf's civilization. Pakistan is still largely a subset of smaller nations that is loosely protected by a unified military force. That military force is not enough to balance itself with its own internal forces let alone its neighbor.
The assumption that airforce can be used to take out terrorist infrastructure is utterly fallacious.
1) Pakistan airforce (even these f-16 c/d versions do not come with laser guided/ satellite guided kids for bombing locations, that automatically takes it out of consideration for bombing terroroist/mind control centers in the middle of population centers).
2) The planes comes hardwired for a nuclear payload ..I hope according to mad rat pakistan is going to use it to nuke its terrorist training centres.
3) well the US/PAK govt says that F-16 are best used when it is on CAP or SEAD role. Well terrorists dont have radar or a airforce.

These above reason make it clear that these frames have been given directly as a show of support to an "unelected dictator" so that they can keep him in power , and america can further its interests until the time comes when they can dump him (when OBL is caught). Then what mullahs take over, F-16 used aggresively all other BS and more tensions flaring..Great strategic move USA
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Here's an idea guys,

What if these arms sales are a reward for Pakistan and India's recent progress in their peace talks?

They may be, but this will only lead to an even further arms race. Relations between Pakistan and India, which have improved significantly over the past few years may be slightly damaged, even if temporarily.

Let's face it, since they got nukes, Pakistan and India were the world's greatest security threats. Well, N.Korea may be up there now.

Clinton has said that the LOC is the most dangerous place in the world.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: athithi
:barf; Seriously, Westerners need to stop thinking of India (and Pakistan, for that matter) as errant school boys. India has never been a security threat to the world. India developed nuclear weapons to safeguard itself against nuclear-armed China to which it badly lost a war in 1962 and continues to have a lot of territorial disputes. India has a no-first-use policy against Pakistan, even after Pakistan has openly declared that it would use nuclear weapons against India first in the face of defeat. That threat by itself has been a very successful strategy for Pakistan - not to remain independent, but to continue aiding and supporting militancy in Kashmir. India has no territorial designs on Pakistan. Even the remaining portion of Kashmir claimed by India is not a part of Pakistan - it is called Azad Kashmir and has its own "Prime Minister".

Clubbing India along with Pakistan and N.Korea as world threats is a fantastic twist of reality.

If the U.S were so righteous is doling out rewards for Pakistan's good behaviour, which it discovered strangely right after India first offered the U.S full (and I mean full, including allowing it to launch military operations into Afghanistan from India - unprecedented!) co-operation a few days after Sep 11, 2001, then the U.S should've been just as righteous in punishing Pakistan for exporting nuclear technology to Iran, Libya and N.Korea.

Rewarding Pakistan for its role in the WoT with F-16s is just BS. As I pointed out earlier, Pakistan has been the aggressor in all the wars between India and Pakistan. And Pakistan has lost virtually every time. So, if Pakistan wants to stop losing to India, there are two ways to go about it. Make Pakistan really strong so it can finally win when it attacks India again. Or better yet, get Pakistan to stop attacking India in the first place. The U.S in all its wisdom appears to be trying out the first option right now. Arming Pakistan has always resulted in that empowerment flowing to other dictatorial/tyrannical regimes. I don't think Pakistan is going to directly harm the U.S post-9/11. But Pakistan is in bed with some pretty unsavoury regimes (ironically, so is the U.S). Don't be surprised when they come calling.

There are several faults with your post. I agree that India has never been a security threat to the world, but when you factor in Pakistan's willingness to nukes as first strike, then the whole region is a security threat.

Pakistan is one of the biggest supporters of terrorists in the world, but noone ever says a thing about it. Pakistan's ISI, it's intelligence agency and other covert ops rolled into one organizations, has been behind many deadly attacks within India. One of the recent ones was the attack on the Indian parliament which killed 13 I believe. How can this be a global war on terror when we call Pakistan one of our major allies? It's not. It's a war on terrorists who are a threat ONLY to America.

Musharaff, our so-called ally, says he supports the resistance movement in Kashmir. In other words, he's endorsing the same terrorists who he's supposedly trying to hunt in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Before the US toppling of the Taliban, many Kashmiri terrorists trained in Afghanistan. There are still many foreigners, such as Arabs, who are fighting alongside Pakistani terrorists.

The reason US decided not to use India has a launchpad for operations in Afghanistan is because it was much farther away than Pakistan, plus it had to cross over Pakistani territory. Or it had to fly around Pakistan, thus consuming more fuel and driving costs higher.

The sale of the F-16's have little strategic value but I think they are more of a public opinion move. We want to improve our image among the Pakistani population and selling the remaing F-16's that Pakistan bought over a decade ago, might help. Pakistan can now buy as many F-16's as it wants according to officials.

Remember, America is offering India joint production of both or either the F-16 or F-18. That is just unbelievable considering only a few years ago America had imposed sanctions on India. Relations between America and India are probably at an all time high. India may actually benefit from Pakistan buying these F-16's as it gets to produce F-16's locally, or even the costlier F-18's.

I agree with you that these F-16's are not for hunting down the Taliban and al-qaeda, but rather as a force against India.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: raildogg


Clinton has said that the LOC is the most dangerous place in the world.

WTF? The Library of Congress?

Originally posted by: athithi
:barf; Seriously, Westerners need to stop thinking of India (and Pakistan, for that matter) as errant school boys. India has never been a security threat to the world. India developed nuclear weapons to safeguard itself against nuclear-armed China to which it badly lost a war in 1962 and continues to have a lot of territorial disputes. India has a no-first-use policy against Pakistan, even after Pakistan has openly declared that it would use nuclear weapons against India first in the face of defeat. That threat by itself has been a very successful strategy for Pakistan - not to remain independent, but to continue aiding and supporting militancy in Kashmir. India has no territorial designs on Pakistan. Even the remaining portion of Kashmir claimed by India is not a part of Pakistan - it is called Azad Kashmir and has its own "Prime Minister".

I don't think of India and Pakistan as errant schoolboys; I think of them as nuclear powers with an antagonistic relationship. I think that a war between these two powers could lead to the biggest disaster humanity has ever seen. And I thank god that Musharraf has started showing signs of sanity.

It doesn't matter if India's policies are more reasonable than Pakistan. If the missles start flying, regardless of who fires first, there will be disaster. I repeat this: it doesn't matter who starts it, if an entire subcontinent is wiped out.

I'm not saying that fueling an arms race between your two countries will help stabalize things there; if I am right, and these planes are a reward for Pakistan's recent good behaviour (note that I think Bush might see Pakistan as an errant schoolboy) then they may just do the opposite of what is intended.

I was merely trying to point to one possible, reasonable motivation the Bush admin may have for this. Let's face it: the current rapprochment between the two countries is welcome. I'd want my government to be encouraging it. I wasn't saying that selling them planes is the best way to go about it.

As an Indian, (which I assume you are, athithi) would you want the US to encourage Pakistan to make peace with you, or would you prefer that the US not care what happens between your two countries? They could sit back and watch the fireworks. Heck, some of the fallout may actually take out some Al Quedans.
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
LOC= line of control just like the 38'th parralel ..location of omnious silence and firings from both side frm time to time

quote
As an Indian, (which I assume you are, athithi) would you want the US to encourage Pakistan to make peace with you, or would you prefer that the US not care what happens between your two countries? They could sit back and watch the fireworks. Heck, some of the fallout may actually take out some Al Quedans.
end quote

the hypocricy is that the ale of weapons may help soothe image of the americans in pakistan but thats not the question.the sale of chemical weapons helped soothe iraqi population in the 80's, the sale of stinger missiles and billions of dollars helped soothe americans image among jihadists.look at where they got us..This SALE will have serious consequences in the futire..IF pakistan is able to drop one nuclear boimb using its f-16, the blame squarely fallas on USA..what will the govt do then, blame it on the errant
schoolboy...

these aircraft are used for just one purpose..KILL
 

LtPage1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2004
6,311
2
0
you all are just being dumb.

we need pakistan. badly. theyve got great strategic location for our troops, and were just buying them off a little.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Originally posted by: raildogg


Clinton has said that the LOC is the most dangerous place in the world.

WTF? The Library of Congress?

Line of Control.

Originally posted by: cirrrocco
LOC= line of control just like the 38'th parralel ..location of omnious silence and firings from both side frm time to time

quote
As an Indian, (which I assume you are, athithi) would you want the US to encourage Pakistan to make peace with you, or would you prefer that the US not care what happens between your two countries? They could sit back and watch the fireworks. Heck, some of the fallout may actually take out some Al Quedans.
end quote

the hypocricy is that the ale of weapons may help soothe image of the americans in pakistan but thats not the question.the sale of chemical weapons helped soothe iraqi population in the 80's, the sale of stinger missiles and billions of dollars helped soothe americans image among jihadists.look at where they got us..This SALE will have serious consequences in the futire..IF pakistan is able to drop one nuclear boimb using its f-16, the blame squarely fallas on USA..what will the govt do then, blame it on the errant
schoolboy...

these aircraft are used for just one purpose..KILL

I completely agree. But we felt that the Jihadists or mujahadeen of the 80's were our friends when they fought our then enemy, the Soviet Union. We were unaware that it might eventually lead up to a global terrorist religious movement aimed against the West, particularly the USA and other infidels (or non-muslims).

Pakistan already has about 70 or so F-16's and adding a few dozen more won't dramatically shift the balance all that much.

These F-16's are NOT to fight the Taliban and al-qaeda but to fight India if a war does occur.

Originally posted by: LtPage1
you all are just being dumb.

we need pakistan. badly. theyve got great strategic location for our troops, and were just buying them off a little.

They are in a great strategic location. But since we have conquered Afghanistan, and now have set up bases in Uzbekistan, Kyrghyzstan, Tajikistan, Pakistan's importance is dropping. Our presence in Central Asia is growing, not only because of the war in Afghanistan, but because of our great interest of the huge oil reserves in that region. The Caspian Sea will play a great role in world events in the recent future.

We've already bought them off by reducing or basically eliminating the billions of dollars of debt Pakistan owed us. We forgave their debt and made them a non-major NATO ally. This move is primarily to help us among the Pakistani population.
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
hehe raildogg we atleast concur on this subject. I am left on most issues and reading ur posts i have kinda figured u are pretty right wing...
I just wanrted to correct one statement..

pakistan got 40 f-16 one or 2 crashed..but estimates say that they have 32 supposedly..the pakistanis keeep the f-16 from crashing by not flying..The f-16 all these years were their premier strike aircraft and they didnt want to use its life by flying them..instead those pilots were practicing on saudi,jordanian and other middle easter air forces
 

athithi

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2002
1,717
0
0
raildogg:
There are several faults with your post. I agree that India has never been a security threat to the world, but when you factor in Pakistan's willingness to nukes as first strike, then the whole region is a security threat.

I'm still waiting for you to point the faults in my post :confused:

It appears to me that some groups in the U.S have a vested interest in projecting peace in India as being fragile. No matter how provocative its neighbours can be, India is a soft state. To be perfectly honest with you, there aren't many regions in the world that would be a fraction as stable or peaceful with neighbours like China, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Burma and Nepal. India is the voice of sanity in the entire region (I believe Sino-Indian relations are on the mend though because China genuinely sees the economic benefits of friendly relations with India and India is learning to deal with China once again after what it considers the betrayal of Panchsheel). To repeatedly blanket the whole region as a danger spot is to deny the hard work India has done and the sacrifices its soldiers and civilians have made to nurture democracy and peace in South Asia.

kibbo:
As an Indian, (which I assume you are, athithi) would you want the US to encourage Pakistan to make peace with you, or would you prefer that the US not care what happens between your two countries? They could sit back and watch the fireworks. Heck, some of the fallout may actually take out some Al Quedans.

The above comment of yours seems to imply that criticizing American F-16 sale to Pakistan is the same as NOT wanting the US to encourage Pakistan to make peace with India :) BTW, yes, I am Indian.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Pakistan bought a total of 40, but only 12 were actually delivered.
28 were held back & placed into storage - never delivered to them.

Of that 28, an indeterminate number of those 'White Tails' were retrofitted &
sold to other buyers, depleting that number to someting under 20 in storage.

When the sales to Pakistan resume, they will complete the retrofits to the aircraft
for the configuration used by Pakistan (another year out) , & put the outstanding
balance into the current production schedule - which would be about 2 years out,
so the 'new build' aircraft would not be available for 3 - 4 years.

FYI - CodeOne