India is planning on buying 124 jets, quite a bit more than Pakistan. They are narrowing it down between F-16's and French Mirage.
One thing of interest though is that corrected: Boeing may start selling F-18's to India.
Expanding upon your words, i think this is a part of the arms race. No i'm not some super lefty liberal, but, as a businessman, I can see some fact to the so-called Military industrial complex.
Its all about bidn'ess.
CaptnKirk
Lifer
- Jul 25, 2002
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One thing of interest though is that Lockheed may start selling F-18's to India.
Don't think this is going to happen . . the old McDonnel Douglas, now part of McBoeing is the one that makes F-18's, not Lockheed.
We make F-15's, F-22's & F-35's (the BlueBird of Happiness)
Don't think this is going to happen . . the old McDonnel Douglas, now part of McBoeing is the one that makes F-18's, not Lockheed.
We make F-15's, F-22's & F-35's (the BlueBird of Happiness)
Actually, India has about 6 choices now that it is considering to buy:
The Swedish Gripen
The French Mirage 2000
The Russian MiG-29 M2 (some reports even say the SU-30, India has several dozen SU-30MKI's and when its all said and done, it could end up with 190 SU-30MKI's) The MKI is a special version of the SU-30 designed specifically for India with French and Israeli avionics.
Th American F-16
The American F-18
Note that the F-18 is somewhat more costlier than the F-16 and offers a bit more capability since its carrier and land based. India has one carrier in operation at the moment. Another carrier is undergoing refit and repairs and another carrier is under construction. So by 2012, India may have 3 carriers. So the F-18 is not out of the question.
It wants to buy 126 of these planes. It already has bought an additional 12 Mirage 2000's a few days ago.
Keep in mind that at the moment, India has no American planes in its inventory, so that may hinder Lockheed Martin's or Boeing's chances of winning the contract. In the end, India may ultimately buy 190 or so planes. So the contract may be worth up to $9 billion dollars.
Boeing has said that it is willing to offer the F-18's to India. I think they will take any offer that comes their way.
CaptnKirk
Lifer
- Jul 25, 2002
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The Swedish Gripen
The French Mirage 2000
The Russian MiG-29 M2
The American F-16
The American F-18
Not much choice to make here if they're looking to equip a carrier fleet, now is there ?
The French Mirage 2000
The Russian MiG-29 M2
The American F-16
The American F-18
Not much choice to make here if they're looking to equip a carrier fleet, now is there ?
I doubt the 126 planes will be primarily used for its carrier fleet. However, out of all the choices, the F-18 is the most versatile and can fit a variety of roles. India is developing its own fighter aircraft which it will use on its carriers. I believe the MiG-29 M2's will be equipped on the carrier that is undergoing refit and repair at the moment.
You can read more here.
http://www.geocities.com/spacetransport/aircraft-lca.html
This tender has nothing to do with equipping a carrier fleet. They currently have some upgraded Harriers they are using for their current carrier (they will shortly have the ability to fire Israeli BVR Derby Missiles) and a naval version of the Mig-29 for their next carrier. This fighter purchase is specificly for the Air Force, and carrier capabilities are not a concern.
- Oct 30, 2000
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Carrier will only handle 50-60 planes and about half should be support.
Figure the same type of A/C will be ground based to rotate to the carrier and around 50-75% of the amount of that which is flown from the carrier.
Figure the same type of A/C will be ground based to rotate to the carrier and around 50-75% of the amount of that which is flown from the carrier.
CaptnKirk
Lifer
- Jul 25, 2002
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India has one (1) functional aircraft carrier, and just recently de-comed on to use as a museum, buying one from Russia - and building one of their own.
That's 3 functional in the forseeable future.
There is a 'navalized' version of the MiG-29 available, as well as the F-18.
Harriers are out of production, although Mac-Dac was remanufacturing the AV-8B
for the Marines in St. Louis in recent times.
Leaves the F-18 as a candidate for Carrier Based deployment - never all the vehicles on a carrier at the same time. Some maintanence just isn't done at sea, but major landbased overhauls.
Not sure about the Mirage or Gripen as carrier based variants, delta wing aircraft are
poorly suited for carrier operations.
That's 3 functional in the forseeable future.
There is a 'navalized' version of the MiG-29 available, as well as the F-18.
Harriers are out of production, although Mac-Dac was remanufacturing the AV-8B
for the Marines in St. Louis in recent times.
Leaves the F-18 as a candidate for Carrier Based deployment - never all the vehicles on a carrier at the same time. Some maintanence just isn't done at sea, but major landbased overhauls.
Not sure about the Mirage or Gripen as carrier based variants, delta wing aircraft are
poorly suited for carrier operations.
The extra military spending caused by sending soldiers to Iraq has to be offset by selling military equipments to a currently compliant country which may then help check, or at least keep busy the emerging power in that reqion...
At the same time that emerging power may then be interested in buying an even greater quantities of military equipments from the US to counter the purchase of these fighters by its traditional enemy, which in the short term would not effect the US in any manner...
On the plus side, the possible purchase of fighters by that emerging power will hopefully keep the country with the greatest perceived economic threat to the US, in check.
At the same time that emerging power may then be interested in buying an even greater quantities of military equipments from the US to counter the purchase of these fighters by its traditional enemy, which in the short term would not effect the US in any manner...
On the plus side, the possible purchase of fighters by that emerging power will hopefully keep the country with the greatest perceived economic threat to the US, in check.
yes the indians are working on a navalized version of the lca and this mrca is only a eplacement ( not one for one) for the mig21's..
India has about 30 or 40 MKI's. The total number could end up to be greater than 190 when the production and deliveries are completed.
I believe the lca was supposed to be a replacement for the mig21?
You still seem to be missing the point. India ALREADY has the Harriers in service. India has also already signed contracts for the Mig varient, the Mig 29 for the two carriers, so they would have trouble getting out of the contracts and its unlikely they would do so.
You also seem to be missing a key point about the F-18 Hornet. While the varient currently used for the US airforce is a carrier varient, India would not buy this for their airforce. They would buy one without the special modifications to give it carrier takeoff capability, which should slightly lower its costs and make it lighter so it has greater capabilities. Therefore the F-18s would not be interchangable between the carrier and the regular airforce.
CaptnKirk
Lifer
- Jul 25, 2002
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I don't think that you know enough about the industry to know what India could be contemplating.
First off - so they have 'old' Harriers - they're out of production and spare are dwindling.
They have to replace them or they will not have some craft to operate.
MiG Variant is more F-16ish and not as capable as the F/A-18, which is first and most a design that is a carrier base airplane,
and not a 'variant' that is cross-fitted to be able be carrierbased.
The Hornet can do either - but Carrier is prime system.
India flys no American planes right now - but the carrot is out there for negotiations.
The US ticked off India by selling F-16's to India in the first place.
India is looking to buy some Mirages from Qatar that have 80% fatigue life remaining.
IF they buy US, I don't see them getting F-16's - they need to stock 2 more A/C's
not expand a ground based fleet. The MiG can do the Carrier based thing, Mirage can't.
What India needs to avoid is being a pawn in a US Market based arms race for the profit of a couple select American products.
I think they'll opt for the MiGs - most cost effective & a rebuke of US Arms policy.
Why should they deal with us ? We're arming their ememy - to force them to arm-up as well.
raildogg
well LCA was supposed to replace the migs but there is a time constraint. The first plane is expected to be rolling off frm the plants only at the end of the decade. infact testing is still goin on and PV1 is uet to be released. PV1 is the weaponized version and was supposed to have been airborne last month. delays are expectred and the airforce does not want to wait till 2008 and then find out its only gonna get 10 plans a year.
and regarding mki the total airframes are supposed to be 140. but thats gonna be completed only by the end of 2014. So india is expected to recieve only around 20 MKI a year.
Bt as of now 2 swaudrons are equipped with MKI..one oin pune and another in i think jaisalmer (someone correct me)
well LCA was supposed to replace the migs but there is a time constraint. The first plane is expected to be rolling off frm the plants only at the end of the decade. infact testing is still goin on and PV1 is uet to be released. PV1 is the weaponized version and was supposed to have been airborne last month. delays are expectred and the airforce does not want to wait till 2008 and then find out its only gonna get 10 plans a year.
and regarding mki the total airframes are supposed to be 140. but thats gonna be completed only by the end of 2014. So india is expected to recieve only around 20 MKI a year.
Bt as of now 2 swaudrons are equipped with MKI..one oin pune and another in i think jaisalmer (someone correct me)
MadRat
Lifer
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There are alot of choices for a carrier air wing. If they want Harriers then there are alot of them coming onto the market here in the next three years as people junk them out for less costly alternatives. The thought of parts being tough to come by seems implausible as there are over 400 still flying.
The most likely twin-engine candidates left:
1. Eurofighter - true fit for the multipurpose role, fits the F-18 clas, and relatively cheap compared to the competition in the long run
2. Rafale - another good all-around solution in the F-18 class but equipped to handle missiles designed from every corner of the world, including Russian!
3. F-18E - the standard to measure all carrier based fighters
4. Jaguar - almost 200 of these are still airworthy worldwide, and the French will refurbish them much cheaper than the cost of buying new planes
5. Ching Kuo - Taiwan would love to re-open this line, but its hardly likely India would buy it
6. J-8II or Q-5 - sounds laughable, but the Chinese will supply a carrier version of either if ordered
Alternate single-engine candidates would be:
1. F-16 - GD had made carrier landings an option but the USN rejected them for F-17 program at the time
2. Gripen - option to use same engines as Eurofighter or Rafale makes it attractive
3. Mirage 2000-5 - Dassault made a carrier capable demonstrator with canards that France rejected
4. LCA - India's indigenious AMX-alike
5. AMX - Italian design is EU freindly and its cheap, low tech design makes a humble alternative to larger planes
The carriers themselves were more or less designed for extremely light aircraft and its a stretch to think they'll be able to convert them to conventional aircraft. If they do then I'd have to think India would be best suited to go with Rafale or Eurofighter.
The most likely twin-engine candidates left:
1. Eurofighter - true fit for the multipurpose role, fits the F-18 clas, and relatively cheap compared to the competition in the long run
2. Rafale - another good all-around solution in the F-18 class but equipped to handle missiles designed from every corner of the world, including Russian!
3. F-18E - the standard to measure all carrier based fighters
4. Jaguar - almost 200 of these are still airworthy worldwide, and the French will refurbish them much cheaper than the cost of buying new planes
5. Ching Kuo - Taiwan would love to re-open this line, but its hardly likely India would buy it
6. J-8II or Q-5 - sounds laughable, but the Chinese will supply a carrier version of either if ordered
Alternate single-engine candidates would be:
1. F-16 - GD had made carrier landings an option but the USN rejected them for F-17 program at the time
2. Gripen - option to use same engines as Eurofighter or Rafale makes it attractive
3. Mirage 2000-5 - Dassault made a carrier capable demonstrator with canards that France rejected
4. LCA - India's indigenious AMX-alike
5. AMX - Italian design is EU freindly and its cheap, low tech design makes a humble alternative to larger planes
The carriers themselves were more or less designed for extremely light aircraft and its a stretch to think they'll be able to convert them to conventional aircraft. If they do then I'd have to think India would be best suited to go with Rafale or Eurofighter.
I actually follow the industry a fair amount in this area. The thing is the deal for 16 Mig-29s for the first of India's new carriers has already been signed awhile ago. India would presumably pay huge penalties if they tried to break this deal now. Here's an article about it, noting that the first Mig 29ks are being delivered in 2007.
http://www.newkerala.com/news-daily/news/features.php?action=fullnews&id=84898
Apparently nothing concrete has been signed for the second carrier as yet, but the intent is definately to use Mig-29s as part of its air wing. Adding the F-18 would really complicate maintenance issues.
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=43699
India definately plans to keep its Sea Harriers around for a bit. The upgrade to them isn't even going to happen until 2008. You don't spend that kind of money on planes you are about to retire from service.
It does appear that the Sea Harriers are going to be removed from service in 2010, but that's the same year the carrier is going to be decomissioned. They definately plan to keep the Harriers in service until then since they are purchasing new radars and missiles for the fighters right now.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050307/nation.htm#1
Basicly it seems extremely unlikely to me at this point that India won't be going for the Mig-29K for its carrier force, and this issue is unlikely to be a factor at all when deciding on the current Air Force purchase.
I'm a bit hazy on something.
Didn't the Pakistani's order F-16s from the US over decade ago, and paid for it, but the F-16s ordered were never delivered cause of a US policy chance. Do these planes have anything to do with that deal?
Didn't the Pakistani's order F-16s from the US over decade ago, and paid for it, but the F-16s ordered were never delivered cause of a US policy chance. Do these planes have anything to do with that deal?
CaptnKirk
Lifer
- Jul 25, 2002
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Yes, yes, & yes . . .
The planes were build & a dozen had been delivered.
The money was paid & accepted.
The deliveries were suspended for the balance due to Pakistan's nuclear policy,
& no monies were returned.
The planes were built-out as 'White-Tails" (No specific customer) & stored.
As other customers bought F-16's some of the 'White-Tails' were drawn down
from storage, re-fitted to customer requirements, & that unit was delivered, some
even became replacements to our own inventory to replace those that crashed.
There are some, a unverified 'few' that are still in storage, so those will be finished
and delivered, then the forcast deliveries will be cycled into the production line
for manufacture & delivery over the next 3 - 4 years as schedule permits.
India's Military Aircraft
The planes were build & a dozen had been delivered.
The money was paid & accepted.
The deliveries were suspended for the balance due to Pakistan's nuclear policy,
& no monies were returned.
The planes were built-out as 'White-Tails" (No specific customer) & stored.
As other customers bought F-16's some of the 'White-Tails' were drawn down
from storage, re-fitted to customer requirements, & that unit was delivered, some
even became replacements to our own inventory to replace those that crashed.
There are some, a unverified 'few' that are still in storage, so those will be finished
and delivered, then the forcast deliveries will be cycled into the production line
for manufacture & delivery over the next 3 - 4 years as schedule permits.
India's Military Aircraft
well the US paid them back, not as cash but as shipments of wheat and soy...so thats settled..iThese F-16 are now provided under a 3 billion payback for singing a different tune..
How can Bush allow that. Bush says that the export of jobs to other countries is good for the economy, and if Pakistan invades India won't that hurt the US economy, because all those jobs will have to come back to the US.
OH, yea, this is a Bush says situation, and nothing that fool says makes sense
OH, yea, this is a Bush says situation, and nothing that fool says makes sense
- Oct 30, 2000
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