US is mistreating Al-Qaida prisoners!

[Rogue]

Konichiwa,

While I don't condone his usage of racial slurs, you must also understand that when you spend time in hostile territory with people that want to kill you and they fit a certain profile or racial stereotype, it becomes much easier to use such language. Spend any time across the line from someone who hates you and you will learn to hate them back in the most simple terms you can muster, irregardless of your upbringing. Again, I'm not condoning it, it's not my style, but I've presented you with a different view that maybe you can take a look at, if not understand a little better.

 

[Hossenfeffer]

Some angry folks in here. Not exactly the most heartening thing.

What I find amusing is that they claim the rules of the Geneva Convention don't apply because they're not POW's, they're "unlawful combatants" and then turn right around and claim that the no pictures policy is because of the Geneva Convention. According to the Convention, they should be considered POW's until a judicial tribunal decides otherwise. Right or not, I'd say we're not exactly playin' by the rules.

 

[Rogue]

I consider the "rules" at this point in the game to be the following:

1) Save as much human life as possible

2) Detain those that seek to take human life

3) Handle those individuals in a manner which prevents loss of life, both their own and the lives of others

I think that we currently meet all three of the above. These people seek to hurt Americans anywhere they can get them. They have hurt, maimed, starved and/or killed their own countrymen in their mission to kill Americans. They are willing to kill the armed and unarmed, the protector and the protected alike without regard for age, race, color, creed, religion, wealth or anything else. They are even willing to kill themselves at this point. The typical American prisoner is not exactly willing to kill themselves and/or the guards that guard them for their "beliefs". These guys are dangerous to not only our soldiers, but our children, wives, husbands and their very own countrymen. What is so hard to understand about that? If we must shackle them and blindfold them to meet the above three rules, what is so wrong with that? We should go easy on them and let them kill more people? Why don't some of you people think? As stated before, offer to take these guys into your home if it bothers you so badly. Set up shelters in your home town for them and wait to see how long it takes them to turn on you and the rest of the country. You must at some point come to the realization that some humans, like other animals in the world, are incapable of operating within what most of us consider "normal" circumstances.

 

[konichiwa]

<< If we must shackle them and blindfold them to meet the above three rules, what is so wrong with that? We should go easy on them and let them kill more people? Why don't some of you people think? As stated before, offer to take these guys into your home if it bothers you so badly. Set up shelters in your home town for them and wait to see how long it takes them to turn on you and the rest of the country. You must at some point come to the realization that some humans, like other animals in the world, are incapable of operating within what most of us consider "normal" circumstances. >>

This "bleeding heart" has no problem with shackling and blindfolding them. I was responding to the outcry of "kill them all," "they don't deserve to live," "use them as firing squad target practice," etc.

-- All men are created equal, but perhaps some are more equal than others --

 

[Rogue]

I wasn't attacking you here Koni, I was just addressing your feelings toward our Marine Corps racist.

On the other hand, I'm glad to see that you agree with me on the "restraints" we're using on these guys. To call them inhumane means that billions of people world wide are treated for more inhumanely than these murderous "detainees" we hold in Cuba.

To the people calling for "kill them all", etc., that's a simple solution to a complex problem. These guys are the key to rooting out terrorist cells all over the world. Information is the single most important element in any conflict and they have the information we want right now. Killing them does nothing but eliminate "information".

 

[perry]

<<

<< US is refusing to classify them as POW's so the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to them >>

What a loaded statement. It is like saying "The US refuses to rename hydrogen to nitrogen." You cannot call hydrogen by the name of nitrogen, no more than you can call terrorists "legal combatants" (here's the hint: because they ARE illegal combatants by all international standards and definitions including the Geneva Convention). They are what they are, why call them something they are not? >>



The Al-Queda are "illegal combatants", but what about the Taliban?

From Article 4 of the Geneva Convention:

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

...
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
...
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.


As I understand the Taliban, they were the government of Afghanistan, and the guys they have at Guantanmo are members of the Taliban "army." IANAL nor a politician, but it seems to me like the Taliban fighters should be considered prisoners of war because they were/are members of the armed forces.



<< Sure, they should be treated humanely. The meaning of "humane" is NOT treated to every lavish accomodation, no more than "proper medical treatment" means a private room with HBO and a blonde nurse. >>



The treatment of prisoners of war is laid out pretty clearly in the Geneva Convention... Quarters similar to those that the Marines have, if we put em to work, we gotta pay em, give them medical care and chaplins, etc.

edit: Not everyone at Guantanamo is a Taliban fighter, some are Al-Queda. IMO, the Taliban should be considered POWs. I don't know about the Al-Queda terrorists..

 

[tcsenter]

<< What I find amusing is that they claim the rules of the Geneva Convention don't apply because they're not POW's, they're "unlawful combatants" and then turn right around and claim that the no pictures policy is because of the Geneva Convention. According to the Convention, they should be considered POW's until a judicial tribunal decides otherwise. Right or not, I'd say we're not exactly playin' by the rules. >>

<sigh> how things become misrepresented....

The position of the United States isn't that the Geneva Convention "doesn't apply" to unlawful combatants. The position of the United States is that these detainees are not POW thus are not entitled to POW status as outlined in the Geneva Convention. The Geneva Convention makes EXPLICIT exceptions for this very purpose.

The Geneva Convention RECOGNIZES both classifications of detainee, but says one must be treated with a high set of standards, the other with a low set of standards, essentially. We are getting this authority STRAIGHT from the Geneva Convention.

 

[tcsenter]

<< The Al-Queda are "illegal combatants", but what about the Taliban? >>

At some point, Al-Qaeda and Taliban militia become synonymous since there on many levels was fluidity between the two groups. Many of the fighters protecting Al-Qaeda positions in Tora Bora had been, in the days or weeks before, "regular" Taliban militia. When the Taliban were fleeing, where do you think they were "fleeing" to? To Al-Qaeda strong-holds and cave complexes throughout Afghanistan. It is THESE Taliban, those who fled the cities and joined with Al-Qaeda fighters to defend Al-Qaeda strongholds and compounds, who are being detained the same as Al-Qaeda because by their actions they became de facto Al-Qaeda fighters.

<< The treatment of prisoners of war is laid out pretty clearly in the Geneva Convention... Quarters similar to those that the Marines have, if we put em to work, we gotta pay em, give them medical care and chaplins, etc. >>

Geneva attempts to set a standard for POW that is significantly above basic humaneness. Humaneness = basic subsistence, shelter, water, medical treatment, no abuse or torture. When we look at the detainees in Cuba, guess what we see: basic subsistence, shelter, water, medical treatment, no abuse or torture.

 

[sandorski]

I too must speak of the disgust I have over the majority of posts in this thread. You can't claim the moral or just superiority over your enemies by stooping lower than your enemies. :|

 

[SuperSix]

<<

<< US is mistreating Al-Qaida prisoners! >>

GOOD >>



Yay!!!!

Best news I've heard today.

I like how we don't have them classified as POW's, that would imply they are human.

 

[ElFenix]

somehow i think it would have been just if the plane had experienced engine trouble over shark infested waters a few hours after the pilots had bailed out.

 

[IGBT]

The whipping post I say...the whipping post. Let the beatings begin.

 

[iamwiz82]

link

Well, the British terrorists say:



<< "There is no sign of any mistreatment.

"They have also had contact with the Red Cross.

"They asked for a number of messages to be passed on to their families, which we are doing.

"There were no gags, no goggles, no ear muffs and no shackles while they were in their cells.

"They only wear shackles when they are outside their cells."
>>



Seems fair to me. In fact, the BBC has a pic of them praying, so its not as if they are stripping them of their life.

 

[AndrewR]

US is mistreating Al-Qaida prisoners!

Damn glad to hear it! They're lucky we let them live in the first place.

 

[jjones]

i can't believe all of the crap being posted here. this is nothing more than the media trying to create a news story because the war in afganistan has become too boring for ratings.

these prisoners are being treated exactly the way they should be: as military prisoners. as someone already said, three hots and a cot. along with this i'll add they're getting medical care and have a roof over their heads. they're a damn-sight better off than they were, huddled in their caves while the US was creating a new moonscape right outside the door.

 

[LuckyTaxi]

<< You people are insane. You rant and rave about 'the 3000 dead Americans didn't get Geneva Convention rights' but then you claim that we should 'kill them all', 'fvck em all', 'use them for ammo testing'. Well which is it? You want people to get their rights or not? Who are you to judge whether someone deserves basic human treatment? >>



dude...shut the fvck up. what if it were one of your relatives in the 9/11 tragedy. You still view these bastards the same way?

 

[iamwiz82]

<<

<< You people are insane. You rant and rave about 'the 3000 dead Americans didn't get Geneva Convention rights' but then you claim that we should 'kill them all', 'fvck em all', 'use them for ammo testing'. Well which is it? You want people to get their rights or not? Who are you to judge whether someone deserves basic human treatment? >>



dude...shut the fvck up. what if it were one of your relatives in the 9/11 tragedy. You still view these bastards the same way? >>




by that thought process, everyone who was in the german army in WW2 should be killed, even if they had nothing to do with the holocaust.

 

[kingink]

i cannot even begin to emphasize that rascist comments directed to foreign terrorists or soldiers is pretty low.

frankly starting to sound like germany in 1933, when people who claim to defend the country disparage some of its citizens with racial epithets. you make all "americans" look bad when you act as you do.

kingink

 

[burnedout]

i can't believe all of the crap being posted here. this is nothing more than the media trying to create a news story because the war in afganistan has become too boring for ratings.

these prisoners are being treated exactly the way they should be: as military prisoners. as someone already said, three hots and a cot. along with this i'll add they're getting medical care and have a roof over their heads. they're a damn-sight better off than they were, huddled in their caves while the US was creating a new moonscape right outside the door.

Good analogy jjones. I agree. Even though our own troops were treated much worse in previous wars (WWII, Korea, Vietnam), the health and welfare of these detainees is more than adequate. Most of the whining comes from the European media and fringe groups, by the way.

 

[StageLeft]

These people ARE POWs. I was watching crossfire and they had the left guy, the right guy, and a couple of guests. One of the guys was saying they were not POWs and the left guy was arguing that they are. Finally to settle the issue the guy on the left read out a quote from the geneva convention. I don't remember what it was but it was short, concise, and direct to the point that these people are classified as POWs. The guy arguing against was such an imbecile that even crossfire's man from the right wasn't touching the issue.

IF you believe they are POWs you HAVE to treat them humanely. This is the point of the geneva convention. You abuse POWs, and when your soliders are caught in combat you'll have no leg to stand on if they are abused and you cry foul. You don't have to like them but if they are pows they have to be treated humanely.

That said I'm not sure they are being treated inhumanely. I don't know what to think of those pictures on CNN now but they are being fed, allowed to shower, pray, etc. and some have threatened that they want to kill an american before they leave, so you have to be very careful.

Back to the issue of POWs the US massacred thousands of Japanese in the second world war with nukes. Their primary target at this time was civilians, not military targets. To the japanese I'm sure that the US seemed like terrorists due to who they were now targeting. Some people hold the position that these prisoners are not POWs because they are unlike a true military and have also targetted civilians recklessly. They are terrorists. My point is that things are not always clear cut and you have to treat them as POWs and err on the side of safety in that definition.

Sure I want to say feed them poop and smack them around for supper, but cooler heads have to prevail.

EDIT: Here we are - taken from CNN's crossfire a few days ago

<< PRESS: Yes, and let me read you something from the Geneva Convention. The Geneva Convention says that it requires that all prisoners be treated as presumptive prisoners of war until a competent tribunal determines otherwise. We are in -- in fact, look what happened when they put them in those planes over in Afghanistan. They put hoods over their heads. We took video of it. And the Pentagon has ordered that that video not be shown on American television. Why? You've got to admit, because they know they're in violation of the Geneva Convention, correct? And they're ashamed of it? >>

 

[Aelus]

<< The Geneva Convention makes EXPLICIT exceptions for this very purpose. >>



quote the convention please.

Aelus

 

[rahvin]

The US has never signed and ratified the Geneva Convention. Hence as non-signatories we are not obligated to abide it even if we do, and we currently are.

 

[Lucky]

<< konichiwa
You want people to get their rights or not?
Only if they deserve to have those rights.

Who are you to judge whether someone deserves basic human treatment?

Nice point, However I am one of the thounsands who awakes in the morning in a foregin land,
I put on the uniform that represents our country and what it stands for. We serve not for ourself
but for family, wives, children and fellow Americans. As we like to say for GOD, COUNTRY and CORPS.........
It is to bad that we who provide this freedom, cannot choose who we give it to.I have been to combat
twice for my Country, I think, hell I know I have earned the right to speak aginst these towel heads
in any way that I choose.
How can you think for one monment that these towel heads are human?
They had their one and only chance. When they heard of the building going down, they should have dropped
from the group and started dirt farming. I do not give human rights to those who were apart of a group that
has used an airplane as a weapon, when it was filled with men, women and children. >>





Even if you are truthful in saying you serve in the military, I dont have any respect for a foul-mouthed racist like you.

 

[perry]

<< The US has never signed and ratified the Geneva Convention. Hence as non-signatories we are not obligated to abide it even if we do, and we currently are. >>



Huh?

 

[Lucky]

<<

<< The US has never signed and ratified the Geneva Convention. Hence as non-signatories we are not obligated to abide it even if we do, and we currently are. >>



Huh? >>





Yeah, what the hell are you talking about???