US economy may be stuck in slow lane for long run

[videogames101]

There you go again, nebulous references to things we should have, but don't.

What wealth building did the bottom half of America have in the past that they no longer have?

real household income hasn't changed, and plenty of skilled jobs still exist

the only difference is rose-colored lenses

 

[videogames101]

I see the bottom 4 quintiles going down from about 1998 to now. What do you see?

take a stats class and get back to me

 

[Engineer]

There you go again, nebulous references to things we should have, but don't.

What wealth building did the bottom half of America have in the past that they no longer have?

When I say wealth building, I'm using it in the sense of 'making stuff' and not 'selling stuff' (from other countries). (i.e. stuff that lowers our trade deficit, etc). I do not mean that that the jobs are building 'wealth' for the employees other than the better pay, benefits and 'skills learned' (yes, those jobs taught skills for many) through having them.

 

[Engineer]

take a stats class and get back to me

So you don't see a down trend from 1998? Maybe you should get glasses.

 

[videogames101]

When I say wealth building, I'm using it in the sense of 'making stuff' and not 'selling stuff' (from other countries). (i.e. stuff that lowers our trade deficit, etc). I do not mean that that the jobs are building 'wealth' for the employees other than the better pay, benefits and 'skills learned' (yes, those jobs taught skills for many) through having them.

Yeah because intellectual property isn't worth shit am I right?

 

[Fern]

-snip-
There are no documented examples of an economy that had to emerge from a financial crisis while simultaneously absorbing the effects of an aging population, noted Harvard University economist Carmen Reinhart, who has researched eight centuries of crises with her colleague Ken Rogoff.

I would've thought that Japan was an example of that.

Fern

 

[Texashiker]

real household income hasn't changed, and plenty of skilled jobs still exist

Household income has not changed, which has drove people away from working class jobs.

If you want to attract workers, you need to pay a competitive wage and benefits package.

 

[Engineer]

Yeah because intellectual property isn't worth shit am I right?

WTF are you ranting about on that one? I never said a damn word about IP.

 

[berzerker60]

Where are these poor people in the US that Democrats love to believe in? I simply don't see these beggar families with shoeless children living in tin shacks. The poor in this country have plenty of stuff.

You're so close to getting the point of how privilege destroys empathy by making it easy for us to just assume what we don't have to deal with doesn't exist.

Those people fucking exist. Just because they don't exist in your white middle class conservative bubble doesn't mean they're not there in huge numbers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ble-people-shot-photojournalists-poverty.html
http://lightbox.time.com/2011/11/17/below-the-line-portraits-of-american-poverty/
http://www.worldhunger.org/us_hunger_pictures.htm
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ears-into-the-war-on-poverty-a-data-portrait/

 

[videogames101]

So you don't see a down trend from 1998? Maybe you should get glasses.

no - I really suggest taking the time to understand how strong of a trend would need to be present to suggest anything meaningful. The "trend" you're talking doesn't convince me of anything except that variance exists.

 

[Texashiker]

Yeah because intellectual property isn't worth shit am I right?

Looks like someone has never worked in a factory.

Tell me something, when was the last time you got your hands dirty or broke a sweat doing manual labor.

 

[Engineer]

no - I really suggest taking the time to understand how strong of a trend would need to be present to suggest anything meaningful. The "trend" you're talking doesn't convince me of anything except that variance exists.

OK then. Those bottom 4 quintiles are doing great and their 'real wages' are going up year over year...not to mention benefits and on top of that, the households are doing it with the same number of household workers, year over year. I concede to you and the power of Craigslist. We can continue on our path and import our way to prosperity. It will be great...can't wait.

 

[Matt1970]

Did you look at the last few decades and those bottom groups of people (i.e. the majority of people in the US)? Hint the bottom 4 groups are flat to going downhill from 2000 on and some before that.

Way before that, like around 1970. When we send a portion of our money overseas via purchasing import crap that normally would have circulated in the US, and we have a lot of people jobs and ways of life dependent on that money staying in the US, what do you think the results are?

McService McJobs
Ross Perot says 'enjoy'!

Exactly!

 

[Engineer]

Way before that, like around 1970. When we send a portion of our money overseas via purchasing import crap that normally would have circulated in the US, and we have a lot of people jobs and ways of life dependent on that money staying in the US, what do you think the results are?

I think you are preaching to the choir on that one.

 

[Matt1970]

I think you are preaching to the choir on that one.

Sorry, I meant that to sound more like a continuation of what you were saying.

 

[theeedude]

Instead of getting pissy and stamping your feet like children, please describe the life that you think Americans should have, if only if it weren't for those nasty hobbitses... I mean rich people.

I don't have a problem with rich people having lots of stuff. But the point is it's not enough to grow the economy. Size of the economy is dictated by the aggregate demand. Key word being "aggregate."
100 average working class families each earning extra $10K is going to create far more demand than a CEO who already makes $10M making an extra $1M, who is likely to simply save or invest that money in financial assets.
Again, if you care simply about the economy growing, then distribution of wealth is important. If you care about something else, that's fine, but it's off topic in this thread.

 

[videogames101]

Looks like someone has never worked in a factory.

Tell me something, when was the last time you got your hands dirty or broke a sweat doing manual labor.

You know, I haven't worked in a factory!

Why are you trying attack me personally. Let's see where your assumptions get you.

I'm currently 21 years of age, I've had nearly all manual labor jobs up to this point and I'm currently working while paying for college.

My father is a construction worker and I worked with him on his various construction sites from 14 until 17. When I was 18 I worked as a dishwasher at a local diner. My first job in college was serving and doing prep/cleaning for a catering service. My first summer back I worked for a professional cleaning company. In my second year I got a job at a call center at my college, which I'm still working now in my third year. My second summer back I worked as a luggage salesmen while doing secretarial work for my uncle's real estate company.

Do I need to explain which jobs involve getting sweaty or having "dirty hands"? I took exactly the jobs I was able to find.

I'm looking forward to my first real internship this summer where for the first time I'll be making more than minimum wage.

 

[Engineer]

Sorry, I meant that to sound more like a continuation of what you were saying.

Thank you and I agree with the idea that we did lots of this to ourselves. Still, the push for more and more profits have pushed more and more jobs out of the country and what did they get from the results? A stagnant consumer that requires more and more government services and private debt just to keep it going (of course, those that sent the jobs out love to lobby for more government benefits for their consumers as well as to loan them more and more money to continue to buy the stuff).

 

[Matt1970]

I don't have a problem with rich people having lots of stuff.

Could have fooled me....

 

[videogames101]

OK then. Those bottom 4 quintiles are doing great and their 'real wages' are going up year over year...not to mention benefits and on top of that, the households are doing it with the same number of household workers, year over year. I concede to you and the power of Craigslist. We can continue on our path and import our way to prosperity. It will be great...can't wait.

Tell me more about how building factories and embarking on a journey to isolationism will lead us to higher quality of life.

It's not like I'm happy that things aren't getting better, that wages aren't on a steady increase - but I don't pretend that building up american manufacturing and stopping imports from China will suddenly fix our problems.

 

[theeedude]

Could have fooled me....

Given your posts, that would not be much of a feat.

 

[Matt1970]

Thank you and I agree with the idea that we did lots of this to ourselves. Still, the push for more and more profits have pushed more and more jobs out of the country and what did they get from the results? A stagnant consumer that requires more and more government services and private debt just to keep it going (of course, those that sent the jobs out love to lobby for more government benefits for their consumers as well as to loan them more and more money to continue to buy the stuff).

Oh absolutely.

 

[Engineer]

Could have fooled me....

Regardless how you feel, he's right on the rest of the post that you pulled that from. Give 1,000 people like you and me and extra $1,000 each and there's a huge chance we'll put the full $1,000,000 back into the economy (which the recipients of our $1,000,000 spending would put that into the economy and right on down the line). Give the extra $1,000,000 to Bill Gates and he would still spend what he's spending now. There sure won't be a 'wow, I've got to go buy something with my extra $1,000,000 dollars'.

I'm not saying that we should or shouldn't be taking more from anyone at the top, I'm saying that the US worker is being sold out and that a better paying job (with benefits, skills learning and the making of a product (since I offend some with 'wealth building')) would not only benefit the middle and lower classes, it would bring life to the economy and those at the top would reap the benefits of a growing economy instead of the scowls of the bottom wanting to tax and spend from them.

 

[First]

A couple quick points:

1. The argument that we "used to" have good middle class jobs (manufacturing, etc.) I think clearly ignores that the middle class wages/wealth boom between the early 1940's and early 1970's is unlikely to be repeated. From my perspective that's because we depended on the rest of the world being either bombed to smithereens and/or recovering from WWII to get much of the prosperity we enjoyed, in addition to significant government outlays during the 40's. A WWII type event that puts the US on extraordinary economic footing certainly isn't an event we should strive to repeat, and from where I'm sitting best explains a good deal of the manufacturing and middle class boom of this 30 year period.

2. Women entering the workforce toward the latter part of this 30 year boom created by necessity an environment where a married couple couldn't just depend on one male breadwinner to maintain the same quality of living. I think if there were negative economic consequences to having women enter the workforce (increasing the pool of workers and perhaps putting tremendous downward pressure on wages) it was still clearly worth it given that it started the revitalization of women's rights and has resulted near 40 years later in women being hired more than men for managerial positions and generally being employed more than men. You also have to take into account that women entered the labor market at unjustifiably lower wages than comparable jobs men were performing, which helped further put downward pressure on average wages. Once women's wages are at parity with men, perhaps we'll see a protracted wage boom in combination with the aforementioned and yet to be mentioned factors.

3. I think it's clear the middle class hasn't yet adjusted to the new wealth-building realities of the 21st century. It's no longer sensible to ignore the gains you can make investing in markets that weren't nearly as common during the 40's-70's period. Forgoing even common investments like 401k's is simply throwing money away; there's a real cost to ignoring opportunities.

 

[Texashiker]

I'm currently 21 years of age

The attitude in your post confirms your age.

Intellectual property is not the same as building a dam or a highway. While IP may generator money, the money is centralized to a select few.

A highway allows goods to be transported to and from market.

A power grid allows a store or small business to open.

Would you like to know one thing that helps a nation thrive? Heavy machinery - tractors, dozers, dump trucks,,,, just all of which are made overseas now.

We can not even make a tractor to plant our own food. But for some reason we are supposed to be a first world nation?

Lets see your Intellectual Property plow a field, plant seeds, harvest the crops, then transport those crops to a market. IP does not do crap when you have people starving.