US commander signals peace talks with Taliban

[JohnOfSheffield]

yeah, we stop so they can build up their forces. great idea.

We stopped for YEARS to allow them to do that, now it doesn't even matter, the majority are not in any known location in Afghanistan anymore anyway.

"well it's that guy, Afghani looking dressed in usual Afghani clothes, to pick him out, he's everyone in Afghanistan apart from foreign forces"

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Actually, the common tradition is to fire off one round inside of the young girl after the rape, it's common practice and something that usually leaves those of us who find them with little choice.

Other than that, you're pretty much spot on.

It occurs to me (and this is pure speculation on my part) that Obama may be planing to withdraw, and "negotiations" are a prequel to declaring victory and leaving. Wouldn't be the first time we've done something like that.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It occurs to me (and this is pure speculation on my part) that Obama may be planing to withdraw, and "negotiations" are a prequel to declaring victory and leaving. Wouldn't be the first time we've done something like that.

No, not even the second time.

But i doubt it, hope for it but doubt it, right this moment, i don't give a sheit what happens as long as i get to go home, that is the downside of having been home for a while, it's not fun to go back after that.

I'm not going to complain about what has cost me this or that, i have gotten paid and i made my choices, no one ever forced my hand in any of this. But the bitter taste after leaving a work half done is something that i think everyone can recognise.

I would have minded a FUCKLOAD less if we had been allowed to finish our job.

 

[rchiu]

No, not even the second time.

But i doubt it, hope for it but doubt it, right this moment, i don't give a sheit what happens as long as i get to go home, that is the downside of having been home for a while, it's not fun to go back after that.

I'm not going to complain about what has cost me this or that, i have gotten paid and i made my choices, no one ever forced my hand in any of this. But the bitter taste after leaving a work half done is something that i think everyone can recognise.

I would have minded a FUCKLOAD less if we had been allowed to finish our job.

Sorry, you could never been allowed to finish your job with the way politics is today. You got sissy liberal on one side caring more about the rights of your enemy than your own soldier and you got conservatives on the other who doesn't understand how the world outside works. The country as a whole wasn't in a critical situation to see the need and the urgency to win the war, and you have UN getting in the way with each of the permanent member having only their own interest in mind.

It's not what it used to be (like in WW2) when military is in control and the government and the people fully back the effort. If you go halfassed like today into any war, you'd lose, waste money and your soldier's life every single time. Might as well forget about military solutions. Just bomb the presidential palace or place some embargo when other country piss you off. Wait until the whole country sees the need, have the backbone to fight a prolong war before you actually get into a full scale war.

 

[Lemon law]

How very typical for JOS to blame only the top leadership of Nato when the real arbiters of winning and losing are the Afghan people themselves. All 31 million of them. Nato had a real chance to demonstrate that they could deliver good governance and a better life, but when Nato decided that corrupt Afghan officials were their friends and the Afghan people be damned, its not hard to understand why the Afghan people lost faith in Nato as a solution.

The problem was already FUBARed before Obama and Patraeus came along, but at least Obama and Patraeus show some glimmers of having a clue. And being willing to actually try some of the right things that have some potential of making some improvements.

Only a fool continues in a losing strategy that has delivered turd results for eight years running. Nor can we compare it to something like WW2 which was touch and go for the first three years with that first three years being a battle of attrition that was hurting the enemy as badly as the allies. Not when the Taliban is getting stronger and the slippery slope is getting steeper for Nato.

So I submit to you JOS, there is some things really wrong with the Nato strategy that has bit off more than it can chew, and its time to start trying some of the new and innovative ways I have suggested as far back as 2005 to improve our Nato strategy. But any fool has to admit the strategy advocated by JOS has been a proven total failure.

On one hand Nato can stay indefinitely and prevent a total Taliban win at ruinous costs, but until Nato radically changes strategy, Nato cannot win.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Sorry, you could never been allowed to finish your job with the way politics is today. You got sissy liberal on one side caring more about the rights of your enemy than your own soldier and you got conservatives on the other who doesn't understand how the world outside works. The country as a whole wasn't in a critical situation to see the need and the urgency to win the war, and you have UN getting in the way with each of the permanent member having only their own interest in mind.

It's not what it used to be (like in WW2) when military is in control and the government and the people fully back the effort. If you go halfassed like today into any war, you'd lose, waste money and your soldier's life every single time. Might as well forget about military solutions. Just bomb the presidential palace or place some embargo when other country piss you off. Wait until the whole country sees the need, have the backbone to fight a prolong war before you actually get into a full scale war.

Son, go away, just go the FUCK away and never come back, it's easier that way because you obviously didn't read anything i wrote nor do you have a bloody clue about how any of this has worked even though i just described it to your sorry arse in multiple posts.

As if that wasn't enough, you got EVERY analogy wrong along with "how things work today" which i just explained to you anyway.

So go away, go the FUCK away and troll other threads, if you see my name in the thread, do not enter, i really wish i could order you to do that but instead i'll just say, pretty please with sugar on top, stay the fuck away.

Are we clear?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I am a little teapot
Short & stouts
Here´s my handle
Here´s my spout
When I get all steamed up
I just shout
Tip me over & pour me out

Sooo young and sooo daft.

 

[Lemon law]

I have to love the JOS arrogance as he lectures everyone and derides them for not having read and believed everything JOS wrote as if he were the holy gospel incarnate.

Sorry JOS, that right of being a self proclaimed guru is reserved for people who deliver the bacon and provide positive results. And by that very criteria, it excludes you as any kind of guru because your strategy has been a proven failure.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

How very typical for JOS to blame only the top leadership of Nato when the real arbiters of winning and losing are the Afghan people themselves. All 31 million of them. Nato had a real chance to demonstrate that they could deliver good governance and a better life, but when Nato decided that corrupt Afghan officials were their friends and the Afghan people be damned, its not hard to understand why the Afghan people lost faith in Nato as a solution.

The problem was already FUBARed before Obama and Patraeus came along, but at least Obama and Patraeus show some glimmers of having a clue. And being willing to actually try some of the right things that have some potential of making some improvements.

Only a fool continues in a losing strategy that has delivered turd results for eight years running. Nor can we compare it to something like WW2 which was touch and go for the first three years with that first three years being a battle of attrition that was hurting the enemy as badly as the allies. Not when the Taliban is getting stronger and the slippery slope is getting steeper for Nato.

So I submit to you JOS, there is some things really wrong with the Nato strategy that has bit off more than it can chew, and its time to start trying some of the new and innovative ways I have suggested as far back as 2005 to improve our Nato strategy. But any fool has to admit the strategy advocated by JOS has been a proven total failure.

On one hand Nato can stay indefinitely and prevent a total Taliban win at ruinous costs, but until Nato radically changes strategy, Nato cannot win.

It wasn't NATO who screwed the pooch, it was Bush who squandered the greatest political opportunity of the last century when he took us from aggrieved party to international bully and went into Iraq. When that happened, John was charged with cleaning up our shit. Even then there might have been a chance if we hadn't virtually abandoned Afghanistan. If we had sufficient strength to control key border crossings, then the Taliban would have had a hard time of it.

Ideally, Bush would have seized the moment, galvanized support for our involvement in Afghanistan, and extended support for moderate factions in Iran, which was far more likely to become a functional independent democracy than any other country in the region. Well we saw how that went.

Nevertheless, NATO was handed a mess and had to deal with it.

Now for some reason you seem to think that the Taliban is reasonable and can be bargained with. As I said, they won't change their barbaric practices. It's part of who they are.

What then would be a basis for talks? That we accept beheadings as the norm?

Tell me, just what do you say to people you know will intentionally be shooting little girls?

 

[chucky2]

LL could even answer my simple question, you think he'll be able to answer yours (which is basically the same thing)?

Chuck

 

[palehorse]

Anyone who believes the top Taliban leaders are willing to "negotiate" while any NATO troops remain in the area needs a concrete whack to the head. While the thought of talking to our enemies sounds good, in theory, it will never actually work with ideologues like the Taliban. They (Omar and Co.) have said as much, through intermediaries, too many times to count...

pipe-dream.

 

[Lemon law]

I have to wonder just how gullible Haybasusa Rider is when he seems to think the omly thing the Taliban stands for is. "Tell me, just what do you say to people you know will intentionally be shooting little girls? " Not to say that does not sometimes happen but its incidence is greatly overstated.

I remember hearing stories about Iraqi soldier stealing incubators from Kuwaiti hospitals and tossing new born premature infants out in the process. And after the war we learned it was nothing but a made up pack of lies.

Anytime you have a war and soldier's lives are in great danger, it tends to bring out the psychopaths in human nature. I am sure the Taliban has their more than their share, and as we have learned, so does the US military.

There is that old saying, in any war, the first causality is the truth as we try to demonize
everyone not on our side.

But just try to think a little, if all the Taliban stood for was shooting little girls for sport, there would not be a female alive in the entire country. And that would have been apparent long before 911. And as additional food for thought, when us enlightened Europeans and US citizens were at a equivalent cultural level comparable to Afghanistan today, we treated human females like chattel without legal rights also.

 

[palehorse]

I have to wonder just how gullible Haybasusa Rider is when he seems to think the omly thing the Taliban stands for is. "Tell me, just what do you say to people you know will intentionally be shooting little girls? " Not to say that does not sometimes happen but its incidence is greatly overstated.

You know this how?

Anytime you have a war and soldier's lives are in great danger, it tends to bring out the psychopaths in human nature. I am sure the Taliban has their more than their share, and as we have learned, so does the US military.

Please tell me that you didn't just equate the US military to the Taliban...?

There is that old saying, in any war, the first causality is the truth as we try to demonize everyone not on our side.

You sure know a lot about war man... who did you serve with again?

 

[Lemon law]

Anyone who believes the top Taliban leaders are willing to "negotiate" while any NATO troops remain in the area needs a concrete whack to the head. While the thought of talking to our enemies sounds good, in theory, it will never actually work with ideologues like the Taliban. They (Omar and Co.) have said as much, through intermediaries, too many times to count...

pipe-dream.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly I have to admit that Palehorse is somewhat right on the past Mullah Omar track record on negotiations. But we also have to remember Mullah Omar is no longer the only voice in what amounts a new and larger Taliban coalition. Many in the new larger coalition are far more pragmatic and have little use for Taliban dogma.

But if Nato says no negotiations and out of hand blames the Taliban for it, what we have is a self fulfilling prophesy when its worth exploring the option. Its one thing to be pessimistic,
but a pessimist can only be pleasantly surprised.

 

[palehorse]

Many in the new larger coalition are far more pragmatic and have little use for Taliban dogma.

Please name one.

 

[werepossum]

Please name one.

Um, Muhammed? In fact I probably just named half of them!

 

[Craig234]

You know this how?


Please tell me that you didn't just equate the US military to the Taliban...?


You sure know a lot about war man... who did you serve with again?

There are things about way you learn serving - and there are things you learn about war that many who serve don't learn. Read a book like Chris Hedges' "War is a force that give us meaning' for an idea of why people go to war, how they react to it, how it affects them that many who are in war don't understand themselves.

 

[Regs]

Their economy was based on illegal drug trade before we showed up. How the hell will they survive when and if we leave there? How can we change a culture that is hundreds of years behind us in less than a decade? Camden NJ is still a criminal infested crap hole and it's a population of no more than 500k in the USA!

 

[palehorse]

There are things about way you learn serving - and there are things you learn about war that many who serve don't learn. Read a book like Chris Hedges' "War is a force that give us meaning' for an idea of why people go to war, how they react to it, how it affects them that many who are in war don't understand themselves.

...so says the other sideline quarterback.

Let Lemon answer the questions. After all, he's the one who always speaks with such all-knowing authority on the subject, so his answers are key when trying to put his rhetoric in perspective.

 

[Craig234]

...so says the other sideline quarterback.

You're being an idiot if you try that line of attack.

But I guess you have nothig to say about communism being bad since you haven't lived under it.

 

[palehorse]

You're being an idiot if you try that line of attack.

But I guess you have nothing to say about communism being bad since you haven't lived under it.

fail.

 

[Craig234]

fail.

No sure it's irony of the week caliber, but the irony is strong.

 

[Lemon law]

Please name one.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can do the research and come up with a pile of names, but in general I am talking about the old line Mujaheddin types, many of the tribal leaders not part of the original Taliban, and many ordinary Afghan who are none too happy with the violence of Nato.

The whole Nato line of we have to kill them to save them does not play in Peoria, Paris, or anywhere else in the world including Afghanistan.

And when Afghan government corruption is everywhere, courts only functions by bribes, with criminal unpunished, we only have conditions where the Afghan people all say, if this is democracy, we don't want it. And as Nato turns a blind eye to Afghan government corruption, the Taliban makes sure they do not.

As for GWB and Blair, they were already committed to invading Iraq before they put the first boot on the ground in Afghanistan. Afghanistan was always a justification but nothing worth committing resources towards.

But just like Vietnam, when it comes to battle between homegrown thugs and imported foreign thugs, the homegrown thug always becomes the home team. And if the only way to end the perpetual violence is for one or the other side to lose and leave, Nato loses by that metric.

I do not need to play in a basketball game to know which side is losing and why, this is not the only totally botched military occupation in world history, the USA showed much more wisdom in its post WW2 military occupations, but seems stuck on stupid now. As self assured delusions and the arrogance of power have seemingly overwhelmed any use of understanding the plight of a people and the wisdom of giving them good governance.

But what somewhat angers me if this whole incorrect implication, that by advocating a far different Nato strategy and opposing the current one, that I somehow support the Taliban and want Nato to lose. Au contrare, I want Nato to win and recognize the present Nato strategy is a sure loser. Which it has indeed proved to be.

But just like Iraq, getting the violence level down is job one to have any hope of progress.

 

[rchiu]

Son, go away, just go the FUCK away and never come back, it's easier that way because you obviously didn't read anything i wrote nor do you have a bloody clue about how any of this has worked even though i just described it to your sorry arse in multiple posts.

As if that wasn't enough, you got EVERY analogy wrong along with "how things work today" which i just explained to you anyway.

So go away, go the FUCK away and troll other threads, if you see my name in the thread, do not enter, i really wish i could order you to do that but instead i'll just say, pretty please with sugar on top, stay the fuck away.

Are we clear?

So go back to what it was, put 5x the soldiers on the ground and go in and out of Pakistan border and hunt down those fvckers. Taliban had the entire Afghan back then, today it is bad but it couldn't have been as bad as when they ruled the entire country. It worked before like you said right, why not put 5x the force as before and get the fvcking job done. Why not bring in all knowing war hero like yourself to get the job done? What's the problem? Why is Bin Ladin still alive and claiming responsibility for the last terrorist attack and both AQ and Taliban still alive and kicking big time?

oh so you say obama and the democrats can't stand pissing off Pakistanis? So you say obama and the democrats can't stand having the international community view the US ruling Afghan instead of Afghan people, even if it's the corrupted to the core Karzai? So it's the dumb Bush decision back then and the same dumb Obama decision now that can't get the job done. All politics, what's the difference. Bottomline, the US as a country don't see the urgency and don't have the heart to get things done and let all the freaking politics get in the way.

 

[palehorse]

I do not need to play in a basketball game to know which side is losing and why.

Perhaps great coaches like Phil Jackson and Mike Krzyzewski should give you a call then... after all, you read about basketball at a Holiday Inn Express once, so you could probably give them both a few pointers.

yep. There's no need to have ever played the game when you can read all about it on the interwebs!

I can do the research and come up with a pile of names, but in general I am talking about the old line Mujaheddin types, many of the tribal leaders not part of the original Taliban, and many ordinary Afghan who are none too happy with the violence of Nato.

So, you can't name one, yet you used the word "many" to describe those Taliban who may be able and willing to negotiate?

ya...