US commander signals peace talks with Taliban

[JohnOfSheffield]

I think a better analogy would be Chamberlain negotiating with Hitler with the benefit of our hindsight. Sure it can be done, but only an idiot would believe in good faith. Well, Hitler was a kinder, gentler Taliban.

At this point in time i think eveyone knows that i am Jewish by heritage so Hitler references do have an impact on me because of that but the truth is, Haya is right, he was a fucking teddy bear in comparison, he didn't torture his victims, he got rid of them efficiantly which meant somewhat humanely.

Until you have walked through a camp and had to kill their victims who are not yet dead, some of them children, some of them being 13 year old girls with their uterus outside their body... until then, you can never understand how much these monsters need to die.

There is only one kind of good Taliban.

EDIT: And Chamberlain was a fool, so was Roosevelt. I do like the Generals "all in all go" offence though, kicked arses and took no numbers.

 

[Red Dawn]

Never won? You British, always twisting history to suit your inferiority complex...

Well they did defeat your Bloody Nazis

 

[Red Dawn]

At this point in time i think eveyone knows that i am Jewish by heritage so Hitler references do have an impact on me because of that but the truth is, Haya is right, he was a fucking teddy bear in comparison, he didn't torture his victims, he got rid of them efficiantly which meant somewhat humanely.

Until you have walked through a camp and had to kill their victims who are not yet dead, some of them children, some of them being 13 year old girls with their uterus outside their body... until then, you can never understand how much these monsters need to die.

There is only one kind of good Taliban.

EDIT: And Chamberlain was a fool, so was Roosevelt. I do like the Generals "all in all go" offence though, kicked arses and took no numbers.

Seems we were more effective letting them take control and then attacking them when there are congregated. Once Bush let them escape into the Mountains and then shifted the offense against Sadam the war was lost

 

[Red Dawn]

What we should do is wait until 2013 and then attack them with Anthrax under the guise of AQ.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Seems we were more effective letting them take control and then attacking them when there are congregated. Once Bush let them escape into the Mountains and then shifted the offense against Sadam the war was lost

Yes, we even had the ability to cross the border inside Pakistan then (little known fact, there was never any argument about the pakistan border, we came and went, the USAF bombed the living daylights outside of everything we targeted even on the Pakistani side of the border) and we had them, WE FUCKING HAD THEM THERE, right fucking there, the LOT of them, all of the AQ ranks and the Taliban but then we were pulled out, my team which was the first to go to Iraq, well obviously we were the first to go, then the rest.

Leaving the Taliban to intermix with the population.

Now... It's done, this is as good as it gets, sure 35000 more, for what? Sitting on their arses is all they CAN do, people here were surprised because no one has got much to do here, sure, we get to livie in the fucking cold under a windshield targeting nothing for a couple of weeks at a time, it's hella fun.

Drone attacks, as it stands, not ONE target has been hit proper, ground targeted bunkers and buildings are 1:1 not ONE miss. But the predators keep flying, probably hoping that some day they will hit something where someone who doesn't report back the day after might have been....

It's over, lost and i'm bored senseless sitting here. Heh, considering the lenght of my replies, that might be obvious though.

What i meant to say is yes, Red Dawn, you are right on the target with that statement.

 

[Lemon law]

I think a better analogy would be Chamberlain negotiating with Hitler with the benefit of our hindsight. Sure it can be done, but only an idiot would believe in good faith. Well, Hitler was a kinder, gentler Taliban.

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The logical flaw with the Haybasusa Rider point is that just because Chamberlain was duped, we should never negotiate. The point being, many negotiations bear positive results and the Hitler Chamberlain case was a rare exception. And largely because Hitler himself was a pathological liar and a megalomaniac.

Maybe we could say the same thing about Mullah Omar, but the point being, he is no longer the sole leader of the Taliban. And therefore has to convince many others in the same coalition to stay together. And since many now in the Taliban coalition have little use for Taliban dogma or sharing the same end objectives, ole Mullah Omar could find himself odd man out.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

What we should do is wait until 2013 and then attack them with Anthrax under the guise of AQ.

I think that the way these groups operate information service targeting might very well leave them with little choice.

Small units on ground (i'm not going anywhere after this one, i'm too bloody old for this sheit) and direct targeting....

"I husalla amida mhabid declare this meeting *BAM*"

Trigger sigths and a shoulder mounted buster or direct hit via AF using laser targeting.... doesn't matter, dead as fucking death.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Negotiate with the Taliban? Seriously?

Dear Taliban,

Stop being so mean or we will continue to fight a half assed war against you.

Signed, NATO


I'm sure that will work.

2nd post in ands your already trolling your win at all cost mentality!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

All in all, quite a number prominent people have been advocating Taliban Nato talks for years. Including Hamid Karzai, US ambassadors, and British and US generals. And the Saudis, as I recall tried to broker such talks a number of years ago. And it was the Taliban who basically refused then.

But IMHO, it was a giant mistake to lump the Taliban and Al-Quida together after 911, but when Nato started a shoot on sight policy for the Taliban, its somewhat understandable that the homegrown movement is equally anti Nato and now totally violent.

But we also have to understand, what the Taliban was then and what it is now are two almost totally different things, if nothing else, because its leadership and membership is totally different.

At one time, Mullah Omar may have been the spiritual leader of the Taliban, but now that many new members have been added who had no previous use for Taliban dogma and still do not, I very much doubt that Mullah Omar is any longer a unifying figure or the only go to guy in such negotiations.

To get more specific on new elements in a changing Taliban, we should note many former militants active against the Russians, Tribal leaders on both sides of the border not formerly favored by the old Taliban, and worse yet many war lords, drug dealers, and corrupt Afghan government officials who want to enjoy the fruits of corruption without excess risky violence. And as Obama discovered in early 2009, the areas of Afghanistan that had the least violence had already been quietly rolled up in such a new Taliban type coalition of you scratch my back and I will scratch yours.

As for Al-Quida, I very much doubt its all that effective, and such a Taliban negotiation strategy could drive a wedge between Al-Quida and the new Taliban if Nato can convince the new Taliban they are a liability.

As for any such new Taliban future in Afghanistan, I have to remain optimistic that the Taliban can't last all that long. Mere modernity and economic development are the cures and universal panacea for such reactionary movements. And if Nato, through such negotiations can achieve a large reduction in violence like in Iraq, time, economic development, and the inevitable pace of modernity can achieve a much improved Afghanistan long term even though the short term will not be pretty.

Because the other alternative is Nato coming up with the 600,000 plus troops to win on Nato terms. Since the 600,000 troops is unlikely, all we have proved is that Nato can't win with the troop numbers we are willing to come up with.

And we also have to realize that the Taliban came to power initially on a platform of corruption fighting. And to some extent, female rights and human rights may be negotiable in exchange for power sharing.

But none of that is now known and won't be until negotiations start. But right now, Nato is in a mess in Afghanistan and is probably worse off than when they started in
late 2001.

wow..I am truly amazed....something that lemon law doesn`t blame on Israel......

 

[Moonbeam]

What he is himself? I don't see the words "fucking coward wise and beautiful woman" in his words?

I do.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

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The logical flaw with the Haybasusa Rider point is that just because Chamberlain was duped, we should never negotiate. The point being, many negotiations bear positive results and the Hitler Chamberlain case was a rare exception. And largely because Hitler himself was a pathological liar and a megalomaniac.

Maybe we could say the same thing about Mullah Omar, but the point being, he is no longer the sole leader of the Taliban. And therefore has to convince many others in the same coalition to stay together. And since many now in the Taliban coalition have little use for Taliban dogma or sharing the same end objectives, ole Mullah Omar could find himself odd man out.

No you stupid twat, the point is that when your enemy is looking to end the existance of all of you regardless of what then negotiations are just used as a tactic so they can regroup, it's not like it's the fucking first time it's happened either you dumb fuck.

Mulla Omar was NEVER the leader of the Taliban you retarded POS, where the fuck did you get that from? He was a spokesman for the small militia that was known as the southern star Taliban at the time, we went in and wiped them out fairly fast. The real Taliban are like the Real IRA, they have no direct leadership, only one cause.

I don't know why i'm trying to talk to you as one who can understand even simple explanations since you proven over and over again that you cannot. You refuse reality and replace it with your own opinion every single fucking time and it's always boring and stupid.

 

[Zebo]

You go find me an actual statement, i am not one to go back on my words so it would be well worth it for you to do so.

Imagine being locked in a room with a complete psycho that has demonstarted and continually demonstrates that he will rather die than live, now be in that situation througout three wars for a total of more than 13 years, when you're done you won't have to ask me about things that you will know and that no one can explain to you.

What is there to salvage? We surrendered in '03, the rest is just a play so that politicians can do their shit and trumph each other regarding how "tough on security" they are.

The worst part is that people like YOU and Patranus swallow it, both of you are equally fucked in the head and naive.

Yes, cut and run, that is what you do when you don't have the support to do what needs to be done, don't get me wrong, i could lead the TFB on a mission with the help of US Airforce to a very successful mission here, along with the four others we have dealt with it could mean the end of all resistance, the problem would be that when we are done, 80% of all civilian population would be wiped out, i can stomach that, i have no problems with it what so ever.

Can you stomach that? Of course not, because when it all comes around you are sitting a thousand miles away comfy in your chair trying to be smart about things that i do every day.

I'd trade places with you any day of the week now, there was a time when i wouldn't have but now... This is useless bullsheit "the new surge"... fuck obama.

And yet you ask me stupid ass questions like why I wouldn't join this? Call me when you're ready to take no numbers, until then as you know it's a waste of money, men and materiel all for some politician and his buddies getting rich as fuck off MIC.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I do.

Actually, so do i.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

And yet you ask me stupid ass questions like why I wouldn't join this? Call me when you're ready to take no numbers, until then as you know it's a waste of money, men and materiel all for some politician and his buddies getting rich as fuck off MIC.

Son, i don't have a bloody clue what the fuck you are talking about.

If you could fucking read you would have been able to read that i CAN STOMACH IT but others cannot.

TFB was first in Afghanistan and Iraq, while the US still were waiting us for clearing a way.

We led the way for every single fucking task and you are tellling ME that we are not one of those teams that should be funded because we are a waste?

You are living fucking proof that THC does indeed make people retarded.

FUCK OFF!

 

[Lemon law]

We can take the JOS quote of, "Can you stomach that? Of course not, because when it all comes around you are sitting a thousand miles away comfy in your chair trying to be smart about things that i do every day."

And edit in the things JOS bungles every day. Things that clearly are not working even if you refuse to admit it.

I ask you JOS, what part of what you advocate has worked in Afghanistan??????????

Are things getting better when your brand of exterminate them all, the guilty, the innocent, it does not seem to matter to you, yet you finally balk at killing 80% of the 31 million Afghan people just to get your way.

And now that you can't get your way, you are open to nothing else, but still remain convinced your way that led to failure is the only way??????????????

JOS, I can only say you are deep deep deep in denial and in so deep that there is no hope for self enlightenment.

 

[chucky2]

LL:

If I raped your cousins the next town over, killed your brothers and sisters the next town over, butchered their parents, your grandparents in your town, and the police couldn't catch me...

...when I showed back up in you town, and you had the means to k1ll me, would you seriously F'ing ask to negotiate with me???????

Chuck

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

We can take the JOS quote of, "Can you stomach that? Of course not, because when it all comes around you are sitting a thousand miles away comfy in your chair trying to be smart about things that i do every day."

And edit in the things JOS bungles every day. Things that clearly are not working even if you refuse to admit it.

I ask you JOS, what part of what you advocate has worked in Afghanistan??????????

Are things getting better when your brand of exterminate them all, the guilty, the innocent, it does not seem to matter to you, yet you finally balk at killing 80% of the 31 million Afghan people just to get your way.

And now that you can't get your way, you are open to nothing else, but still remain convinced your way that led to failure is the only way??????????????

JOS, I can only say you are deep deep deep in denial and in so deep that there is no hope for self enlightenment.

Ok, let's talk to them.

Now let me tell you what's not on the table. Oh they might agree to anything on paper, but when it comes to ruling things out, here is what we have to work with.

They will not rule out supporting terrorist activities.
They will rape young girls with a sword if they have a mind to.
They will attack anyone whom they see as opposing their control.
They will brutalize women who do not dress as they command, or who wish to become educated.
They will continue to undermine ANY centralized government.


Now if we agree to let them do all the above they MIGHT not target our forces.

So what's to bargain about again?

 

[werepossum]

Seems we were more effective letting them take control and then attacking them when there are congregated. Once Bush let them escape into the Mountains and then shifted the offense against Sadam the war was lost

Yes, conventional military theory is 100% positive that when one side is driven completely out of their own country and can only sneak back in disguise, that side has clearly won the battle. Especially in this war, where our whole reason for going to war was to prevent the Taliban from escaping Afghanistan. Oh wait . . .

I say negotiation is fine, only the acceptable results are in question. Our reason for going to war was to prevent the Taliban from allowing terrorists to use Afghanistan as a training and staging base. We enabled their near-defeated opponents to overcome them in the civil war simmering since the Soviets were kicked out and put very few restrictions on how they ordered their society. Both sides know we will soon pull out. At that point the Taliban will have whatever role in Afghan society that they can negotiate or win by force of arms. We might possibly be able to influence this role by negotiation. No, the Taliban cannot be trusted to keep their word - but neither can our pet Afghans, who will be living with whatever agreement (if any) is made. That is their culture, and short of occupying their whole country for decades, destroying and rebuilding all their social constructs, and forcibly converting them all to Christianity that won't change. Let them negotiate, but warn them that another 9/11 happens and we don't invade, we merely fly over and systematically demolish everything that looks man-made.

 

[Lemon law]

LL:

If I raped your cousins the next town over, killed your brothers and sisters the next town over, butchered their parents, your grandparents in your town, and the police couldn't catch me...

...when I showed back up in you town, and you had the means to k1ll me, would you seriously F'ing ask to negotiate with me???????
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly, in Afghanistan and the tribal regions of Pakistan, that same dilemma cuts both ways.
As hundreds of thousands of Afghan and Pakistani know of relatives killed by the senseless violence of Nato. Why should they negotiate with Nato either when Nato is also a hazard to their health?

So chucky2,maybe you need to grow up, quit believing only propaganda, and realize that negotiating is sometimes the best thing to do when rational and pragmatic people on both sides realize the common enemy is endless senseless violence that only produces more endless senseless violence.

Or maybe you still believe in he tooth fairy when eight plus years of endless Nato violence does worse and worse every year. And now the Taliban is closer than ever to winning in Afghanistan. Are we going to cut and run as some have advocated, or will we try to salvage something. But a Nato military only strategy has been a total flop.

Well cheer up, a Nato military strategy might work, all we have to do is come up with another extra 600,000 troops. Failing that extra 600,000 troops, its too little too late.

Got a better idea? I will be willing to listen.

 

[Jaskalas]

The logical flaw with the Haybasusa Rider point is that just because Chamberlain was duped, we should never negotiate.

Maybe you should consider who you are negotiating with.

 

[JSt0rm]

You don't fucking surrender and pull out when you are about to go for the kill with exact locations and overwhelming firepower that can be directed in such a way that civ casualties can be kept under 5%. The situation was bloody unheard off and squandered because it would have ended the war and we just couldn't have that.

Whoever decided to do that should be tried for treason and hung.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

We can take the JOS quote of, "Can you stomach that? Of course not, because when it all comes around you are sitting a thousand miles away comfy in your chair trying to be smart about things that i do every day."

And edit in the things JOS bungles every day. Things that clearly are not working even if you refuse to admit it.

I ask you JOS, what part of what you advocate has worked in Afghanistan??????????

Are things getting better when your brand of exterminate them all, the guilty, the innocent, it does not seem to matter to you, yet you finally balk at killing 80% of the 31 million Afghan people just to get your way.

And now that you can't get your way, you are open to nothing else, but still remain convinced your way that led to failure is the only way??????????????

JOS, I can only say you are deep deep deep in denial and in so deep that there is no hope for self enlightenment.

I have asked you over 50 times to stop misquoting me, there is a bloody quote function you stupid fuck.

How FUCKING hard is it to find it? Do i need to draw you a bloody picture you retarded piece of sheit?

I've told you again and again and again that when you misrepresent what i say by picking and choosing and changing my words i won't reply to you and you still do it.

And i won't respond to claims made by you that i never said you stupid fuck, this is Cheney tactics, you have learned well from your hero.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Ok, let's talk to them.

Now let me tell you what's not on the table. Oh they might agree to anything on paper, but when it comes to ruling things out, here is what we have to work with.

They will not rule out supporting terrorist activities.
They will rape young girls with a sword if they have a mind to.
They will attack anyone whom they see as opposing their control.
They will brutalize women who do not dress as they command, or who wish to become educated.
They will continue to undermine ANY centralized government.


Now if we agree to let them do all the above they MIGHT not target our forces.

So what's to bargain about again?

Actually, the common tradition is to fire off one round inside of the young girl after the rape, it's common practice and something that usually leaves those of us who find them with little choice.

Other than that, you're pretty much spot on.

 

[Cattlegod]

yeah, we stop so they can build up their forces. great idea.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Whoever decided to do that should be tried for treason and hung.

Well, if the WOT would have ended there and AQ would have been toast along with most of the Taliban then the WOT would have ended.

The WOT is a political game, if it ends, it can't be played further.

I'll name four men who all have a part in it today, GW, Blair, Brown and Obama.

THAT is how deep this rabbit hole goes, at the time, people like Obama and Brown were not schooled in right, nowadays they are and they will do the same fucking things their predecessors did, well except that Blair might be tried for treason in the UK soon.