upright rows - to be avoided?

[panamega]

Are upright rows really that bad for the shoulders? According to a bunch of articles I could find via google, it very well is (through can't really know how much I can trust them).

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betteru26.htm
http://www.fitstep.com/Advance...ws-a-good-exercise.htm

I have been doing them since a month and a half and can do them just fine without any discomfort or pain in my shoulders or any where on my body for that matter. But if it's really that dangerous and can cause hurt without warning, what can I replace them with? Are shrugs as effective in working the traps? Currently, I do OH presses and db presses/side raises in addition to them.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I'm fairly sure it depends on the range of motion that you use for the upright rows. Impingement occurs, I believe (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong), when the shoulder/arm goes about parallel to the ground. When I've done them, I have always brought the weight up about low-mid chest where my shoulder is not impinged.

And yes, shrugs should be quite efficient in working the traps. It's essentially all trap work, but you'll have to go heavy to hit them hard.

 

[brikis98]

Just about everything I've read, heard and experienced with upright rows suggests you should avoid them. It's possible that with perfect form and a healthy/flexible shoulder to begin with, you won't have any negative effects. However, the pros don't really outweigh the cons: the risk of injury (impingement) is pretty high for most people and there are other options that are superior (and safer) for training the traps/shoulders.

Shrugs are the classic exercise for hitting your traps. Both DB raises and OH presses will use hit your traps and and deltoids, although OH presses let you use far more weight and also incorporate numerous other upper body muscles for balance. Olympic style lifts are also incredibly effective at working the deltoids and traps. The clean, snatch, power clean, power snatch, and high pull all hit the traps very hard. Jump shrugs are an explosive version of shrugs and also an excellent way to hit your traps. The overhead squat uses your traps and shoulders extensively for stabilization. The push press, push jerk, split jerk all work the shoulders and traps.

 

[TallBill]

Edit - I'm a total idiot

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: brikis98
Just about everything I've read, heard and experienced with upright rows suggests you should avoid them. It's possible that with perfect form and a healthy/flexible shoulder to begin with, you won't have any negative effects. However, the pros don't really outweigh the cons: the risk of injury (impingement) is pretty high for most people and there are other options that are superior (and safer) for training the traps/shoulders.

Shrugs are the classic exercise for hitting your traps. Both DB raises and OH presses will use hit your traps and and deltoids, although OH presses let you use far more weight and also incorporate numerous other upper body muscles for balance. Olympic style lifts are also incredibly effective at working the deltoids and traps. The clean, snatch, power clean, power snatch, and high pull all hit the traps very hard. Jump shrugs are an explosive version of shrugs and also an excellent way to hit your traps. The overhead squat uses your traps and shoulders extensively for stabilization. The push press, push jerk, split jerk all work the shoulders and traps.

So lemme ask you - what do you think of Sumo Deadlift High Pulls? It's essentially an upright row included in the movement. Granted, it's a lot of hips rather than all shoulders, but impingement is likely to happen in this motion to some extent as well.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
So lemme ask you - what do you think of Sumo Deadlift High Pulls? It's essentially an upright row included in the movement. Granted, it's a lot of hips rather than all shoulders, but impingement is likely to happen in this motion to some extent as well.

I disagree, totally different.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
So lemme ask you - what do you think of Sumo Deadlift High Pulls? It's essentially an upright row included in the movement. Granted, it's a lot of hips rather than all shoulders, but impingement is likely to happen in this motion to some extent as well.

I disagree, totally different.

Example video.

I'm not gonna agree with you there. There is still a significant load on the shoulder while it is internally rotating, which should therefore result in impingement during the upper range of motion. I agree that there is explosive power originating from the legs and hips, but the exercise clearly involves internal rotation of the shoulder at some point. The load is undoubtedly lesser than if done without the hip drive, but there is still a load.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
So lemme ask you - what do you think of Sumo Deadlift High Pulls? It's essentially an upright row included in the movement. Granted, it's a lot of hips rather than all shoulders, but impingement is likely to happen in this motion to some extent as well.

Although it looks similar, the high pull motion is vastly different than the upright row. In fact, the SDHP is closer to an olympic lift like the power clean than an upright row. Most of the bar's moment is coming from the hip drive (which should feel similar to a clean or kettlebell swing) and the rest is supplied by the traps. Yes, the arms do end up in a position similar to the upright row, but that's mostly because the rising bar pushes them into that position. In other words, there is very little pulling happening with the shoulders and therefore very little actual strain on the rotator cuff.

From personal experience, upright rows give me a sharp pain immediately, even with relatively light weight. Despite that, I can do SDHP with much heavier weight without any discomfort whatsoever.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
So lemme ask you - what do you think of Sumo Deadlift High Pulls? It's essentially an upright row included in the movement. Granted, it's a lot of hips rather than all shoulders, but impingement is likely to happen in this motion to some extent as well.

I disagree, totally different.

Example video.

I'm not gonna agree with you there. There is still a significant load on the shoulder while it is internally rotating, which should therefore result in impingement during the upper range of motion. I agree that there is explosive power originating from the legs and hips, but the exercise clearly involves internal rotation of the shoulder at some point. The load is undoubtedly lesser than if done without the hip drive, but there is still a load.

Bleh, I had something else in mind. I'd do those from the waist. Hands almost touching to hit the traps harder, hands wider to hit the deltoids more.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Example video.

I'm not gonna agree with you there. There is still a significant load on the shoulder while it is internally rotating, which should therefore result in impingement during the upper range of motion. I agree that there is explosive power originating from the legs and hips, but the exercise clearly involves internal rotation of the shoulder at some point. The load is undoubtedly lesser than if done without the hip drive, but there is still a load.

Check out the SDHP from CF's exercise page and watch the slow motion videos of Nicole with the PVC pipe. You can clearly see how the vast majority of the motion is generated by the hips and traps and that there is very little pulling done with the shoulder In the video of the guy, note how pulling early with the arms is labeled as "BAD", as that would actually be more of an upright row. There is a small discussion of the SDHP on the CF messageboards and Steven Low's responses are pretty spot on.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: TallBill
Bleh, I had something else in mind. I'd do those from the waist. Hands almost touching to hit the traps harder, hands wider to hit the deltoids more.

Hang High Pull?

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: TallBill
Bleh, I had something else in mind. I'd do those from the waist. Hands almost touching to hit the traps harder, hands wider to hit the deltoids more.

Hang High Pull?

Yeah, but like I said, you can affect how hard it hits the traps/deltoids based on your hand placement. Just gotta be careful if you go really wide with the hands, you cant raise it quite as high.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Example video.

I'm not gonna agree with you there. There is still a significant load on the shoulder while it is internally rotating, which should therefore result in impingement during the upper range of motion. I agree that there is explosive power originating from the legs and hips, but the exercise clearly involves internal rotation of the shoulder at some point. The load is undoubtedly lesser than if done without the hip drive, but there is still a load.

Check out the SDHP from CF's exercise page and watch the slow motion videos of Nicole with the PVC pipe. You can clearly see how the vast majority of the motion is generated by the hips and traps and that there is very little pulling done with the shoulder In the video of the guy, note how pulling early with the arms is labeled as "BAD", as that would actually be more of an upright row. There is a small discussion of the SDHP on the CF messageboards and Steven Low's responses are pretty spot on.

Ah Stephen Low and your vast knowledge greater than mine. Lol. Still, wanted to get that clarified just in case anybody had similar questions. I've done both and neither really bother me. However, like I said, I don't do the upright rows past parallel with the ground and the SDHP is mainly hip drive. Cool, works for me. SDHP kill me.

 

[conorvansmack]

I don't do upright rows any more, but when I did, I had my hands extremely close and kept my elbows high. I never had any problems and thought it was a nice little exercise.

Done correctly, I think power cleans replace them with lots of extra benefits.

 

[purbeast0]

interesting, i had never heard about this.

i've been doing them for probably 2 years now and do them pretty heavy and have never experienced any pain or weird feeling in my shoulders.

 

[EvilYoda]

I stopped after doing those for a while - they always "hurt" my shoulders. It wasn't too serious, but I knew the pain the next few days was a direct result of the upright rows.

 

[StageLeft]

I wouldn't do them. There are enough people who say they are bad that I have no reason to think of doing them considering there are so many alternative exercises available. Doing them without pain now doesn't mean they are not bad. I used to do behind the head lat pull downs. Never had a problem, but almost everybody thinks they are dangerous on the shoulder. I also stopped doing barbell bench press and stick now to dumbells. I think enough people have shoulder problems as the result of benching long term that it's not worth it to me. It sucks, too, because I used to really like benching!

 

[KoolDrew]

. I think enough people have shoulder problems as the result of benching long term that it's not worth it to me.

Most of the problems associated with bench press and shoulder problems can easily be avoided by using proper form and a balanced routine. Most people don't do either one.