Upgrade to 5850 with weak CPU?

[woolfe9999]

I currently have an 8800GTS 320, and an e6750 (Conroe) CPU. I run at 1680X1050.

The setup has been fine for a couple years, but with recent games I am starting to have serious problems, not due to a lack of raw power on the part of the GPU, but rather due to its low memory. For example, with GTA4 I am locked out of even setting the game at my native resolution, and when I use consol commands to set it at 1680, the game runs like crap even with all detail settings turned low. And with Champions Online, I cannot set the game above medium texture quality without it severely stuttering and locking up, whereas a friend of mine has a 7900GS (512mb) and doesn't have this problem.

As upgrading my CPU/mainboard/RAM is a $500+ proposition and will not be in the budget until late next year when I will be looking at Sandy Bridge, I am going to keep the current CPU until then. It is OCed as high as it goes without a voltage bump, and that is as far as I want to go.

So my question is, given the CPU and the resolution I am running at, will the CPU limitation severely limit the framerate bump in going from 8800GTS-->5850? Without the CPU limitation, I am thinking it should be about 150% performance improvement, but if the CPU limitation is going to make it more like 20% or something, I think I'll solve the memory problem by grabbing a 4850 instead for like $90, as a stopgap, and upgrade the video card again in a year when I upgrade everything else.

So how much will the CPU limit the expected performance gain here?

- woolfe

 

[happy medium]

What is your cpu overclock at?

If it's around 3ghz your bump from 8800gts 320 should be more than double with a 5850.

 

[woolfe9999]

2950mhz if memory serves. Locks up at stock voltage any higher than that. Sounds like it's close enough from what you're saying though.

- woolfe

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: woolfe9999
2950mhz if memory serves. Locks up at stock voltage any higher than that. Sounds like it's close enough from what you're saying though.

- woolfe

since you are planning on upgrading some time next year then why not go with one of the super cheap 4850 cards like you were thinking? a 4850 is still a great card especially for 90 bucks and you will lose very little money when you sell it later too. it will be a nice boost over the 8800gts 320mb for sure plus you could easily sale the that old 8800gts. also 9-12 months when you go to build that new pc the 5850 and 5870 will probably be much cheaper.

 

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: woolfe9999
2950mhz if memory serves. Locks up at stock voltage any higher than that. Sounds like it's close enough from what you're saying though.

- woolfe

2950 is just fine. You can play most if not all games at high settings @ 1650x1050 with a good framerate with a 5850.

 

[Vertibird]

Originally posted by: woolfe9999
I think I'll solve the memory problem by grabbing a 4850 instead for like $90, as a stopgap, and upgrade the video card again in a year when I upgrade everything else.

Those $90 cards only have 512 Mb memory. This is probably fine for most games @ 1680 x1050.

Does GTA IV require more than that?

 

[happy medium]

Yea if you want a stopgap card get a 4870 1gb for 145$ shipped.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814150436

Gta4 begs for 1gb. yes Vertibird

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: happy medium

Originally posted by: woolfe9999
2950mhz if memory serves. Locks up at stock voltage any higher than that. Sounds like it's close enough from what you're saying though.

- woolfe

2950 is just fine. You can play most if not all games at high settings @ 1650x1050 with a good framerate with a 5850.

of course his cpu will play everything just fine(except gta4)but a 5850 is a pretty good bit stronger than a gtx285 so at just 1680x1050 that cpu will certainly hold it back a bit. his cpu clock for clock is slower than newer Core 2 cpus so his 2.95 would be probably like an Exxx lowered to 2.7 or so and for such a strong card that will be a little lacking for sure. he only has an 8800gts 320mb now so even a 4850 for 90 bucks would be a good jump. I would probably get that or a 4870 and then in about a year when building a new pc make the jump to a DX11 card. Nvidia will have all their cards out by then so prices and choices will be better. also we will actually see what card can handle the DX11 games the best by then.

 

[happy medium]

Well I disagree, just because it's a dual core cpu does not mean GTA4 won't run well. The general feeling I get from people is that it runs better with a quad core.

In any event, his fps will more then double from the upgrade to a 5850 and I think thats what he's looking for.

When he builds his new system that 5850 will still be a strong gpu, which will transfer to his new system nicely.

one of the few times I disagree with you Toyota?

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: happy medium
Well I disagree, just because it's a dual core cpu does not mean GTA4 won't run well. The general feeling I get from people is that it runs better with a quad core.

In any event, his fps will more then double from the upgrade to a 5850 and I think thats what he's looking for.

When he builds his new system that 5850 will still be a strong gpu, which will transfer to his new system nicely.

one of the few times I disagree with you Toyota?

you need to look at cpu benchmarks for gta4. http://www.pcgameshardware.com...PU-benchmarks/Reviews/ it will probably be playable but it will be stuck in the upper 20fps range at best according to this. I dont own the game but I hear quite a bit of comments about how the cpu is very important and that even fast dual cores will really hold back performance.

also he said he wont be building a new pc for maybe a year. by then we will already have refreshes and completely different prices. stop gap solution makes more sense especially since his current gpu is pretty slow. i would suggest the 5770 if it was about 20-30 bucks cheaper but unfortunately its not. a 4850 or 4870 512 would be a very nice jump over his current setup and will hold him over for nearly year.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: toyota

Originally posted by: woolfe9999
2950mhz if memory serves. Locks up at stock voltage any higher than that. Sounds like it's close enough from what you're saying though.

- woolfe

since you are planning on upgrading some time next year then why not go with one of the super cheap 4850 cards like you were thinking? a 4850 is still a great card especially for 90 bucks and you will lose very little money when you sell it later too. it will be a nice boost over the 8800gts 320mb for sure plus you could easily sale the that old 8800gts. also 6-9 months when you go to build that new pc the 5850 and 5870 will probably be much cheaper.

dude, you are seriously the most budget minded person I've seen here in years. you tried to high pressure one guy into picking 5770 over 5850, now you're pushing 4850 on somebody who hasn't asked for it...

@OP, your cpu will be fine for a 5850. you will see a huge performance bump, plus you won't have to go through the hassle of selling a card and buying a new one next year. Also, unless you get a 4850 1 gb (more expensive by quite a bit than the $90 512mb card that toyota mentioned) then you will probably run into memory starvation issues soon all over again. get the 5850.

edit: looking at those numbers that toyota linked, you might have to play with your in-game settings a bit. also, I would HIGHLY recommend that you go ahead and bump the voltage up and get a decent OC on that cpu. an e6750 is easy to get to 3.4 with very reasonable voltages and almost all will go to 3.6+ if pushed enough. I spent a lot of time playing with my old e6750, pm me if you need details. I did a LOT of research first as well, and I can say with a very high level of confidence that you won't hurt that cpu with small voltage bumps. What mobo are you using? I still remember my settings and in fact still have my ip35 pro mobo (just with an x3350 in it now).

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995

Originally posted by: toyota

Originally posted by: woolfe9999
2950mhz if memory serves. Locks up at stock voltage any higher than that. Sounds like it's close enough from what you're saying though.

- woolfe

since you are planning on upgrading some time next year then why not go with one of the super cheap 4850 cards like you were thinking? a 4850 is still a great card especially for 90 bucks and you will lose very little money when you sell it later too. it will be a nice boost over the 8800gts 320mb for sure plus you could easily sale the that old 8800gts. also 6-9 months when you go to build that new pc the 5850 and 5870 will probably be much cheaper.

dude, you are seriously the most budget minded person I've seen here in years. you tried to high pressure one guy into picking 5770 over 5850, now you're pushing 4850 on somebody who hasn't asked for it...

@OP, your cpu will be fine for a 5850. you will see a huge performance bump, plus you won't have to go through the hassle of selling a card and buying a new one next year. Also, unless you get a 4850 1 gb (more expensive by quite a bit than the $90 512mb card that toyota mentioned) then you will probably run into memory starvation issues soon all over again. get the 5850.

instead of jumping on me perhaps you should READ his op. he mentions going with the $90 4850. the guy I was suggesting the 5770 to was at 1440x900 so that is different than this case. also as I have already just mentioned the 5770 is too pricey compared to 4850 and 4870 so its a little hard to actually recommended that now.

 

[bryanW1995]

he mentioned going with the 4850 if he only saw a 20% performance improvement by going to 5850. I think that it is reasonable to assume that he will get much closer to the 150% number than the 20% number, don't you? Especially if he clocks his cpu up another 10-15%, his system should still be gtg in another 18mos and perhaps even longer.

I mentioned the frugality aspect because if anybody on this forum mentions anything with an option, you recommend the cheaper option. If anybody mentions a more expensive purchase with no cheaper option, (say 5850 or 5870) you find a reason to mention 5770 or something cheaper. I bring it up because you might not even notice that you're doing it, but some people actually buy things that they want with price as a factor instead of picking a budget and then trying to fit something decent into it.

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
he mentioned going with the 4850 if he only saw a 20% performance improvement by going to 5850. I think that it is reasonable to assume that he will get much closer to the 150% number than the 20% number, don't you? Especially if he clocks his cpu up another 10-15%, his system should still be gtg in another 18mos and perhaps even longer.

I mentioned the frugality aspect because if anybody on this forum mentions anything with an option, you recommend the cheaper option. If anybody mentions a more expensive purchase with no cheaper option, (say 5850 or 5870) you find a reason to mention 5770 or something cheaper. I bring it up because you might not even notice that you're doing it, but some people actually buy things that they want with price as a factor instead of picking a budget and then trying to fit something decent into it.

I do usually suggest a card that is best bang for buck based on the rest of their system and what they are upgrading from. IMO a 4850 or 4870 would be a nice big upgrade for him for 1680x1050 at less than half the price of the 5850. a 5770 just isnt worth the price and I think the 5850 would be a little wasteful for his system and resolution. if he wants the 5850 then he could certainly get it. he asked for advice so that is what i am giving. he mentions building a whole new system in about a year and I personally think a 4850 or 4870 will serve him well at 1680 and will certainly be better than his current 8800gts 320mb. not everybody will agree and that is fine.

 

[happy medium]

I think that review is ridiculous . If you went buy that review, only core i7 users would get a good gameplay. They have the settings maxed which will affect the cpu as well as the gpu. I don't think they would make a game that only 10% of computer users can play at 30fps?

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: happy medium
I think that review is ridiculous . If you went buy that review, only core i7 users would get a good gameplay. They have the settings maxed which will affect the cpu as well as the gpu. I don't think they would make a game that only 10% of computer users can play at 30fps?

well I didnt write it but clearly many people have complained about cpu performance so surely you dont think the article is a lie. also I doubt you need over 25-30 fps in that game for it to be acceptable. i am sure most decent cpus will get by but clearly you do need an i7 in GTA4 for best experience.

 

[bryanW1995]

I've never played gtaIV, but isn't it a VERY poorly done console port? Also, isn't 50% a lot more than most people use? Why not just use crysis all very high with 4x/16x?

 

[edplayer]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
dude, you are seriously the most budget minded person I've seen here in years.

good thing you have people like him posting in this forum because if there weren't any you would get posts like this:


Hay guys! What gpu should I get? I mostly play solitaire and internet/aim.

You should get a 5850 or 5870. 5850 is probably fine but it is safer to get the 5870 in case you want 8XAA and want to keep a steady 60fps and it will make it futureproof.

 

[bryanW1995]

naw, everybody knows that 5770 will be good for solitaire. well, at least until solitaire 2010 arrives.

 

[edplayer]

Originally posted by: happy medium
Yea if you want a stopgap card get a 4870 1gb for 145$ shipped.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814150436

If he is going to spend $145, might as well spend a little more and get a 5770 or 4790.

Originally posted by: toyota
you need to look at cpu benchmarks for gta4. http://www.pcgameshardware.com...PU-benchmarks/Reviews/ it will probably be playable but it will be stuck in the upper 20fps range at best according to this. I dont own the game but I hear quite a bit of comments about how the cpu is very important and that even fast dual cores will really hold back performance.

benchmarks only show you a little. That one shows you what to expect with max details and 50% view. You can just accept that as your only choice or adjust the settings to improve frame rates. Look online and you will find some guides on how to adjust GTA4 so it plays well with a dual core.

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
I've never played gtaIV, but isn't it a VERY poorly done console port?

I don't think anyone here knows. They never had a programmer who has actually looked at that code explain to them what is going on. They just hear something over many times and assume it to be true just because they read it a lot.

 

[bryanW1995]

either that or they use their common sense and see that a game with decent graphics requires a LOT more horsepower than another game with similar graphics.

I would be curious to see that same website evaluate an e6750 @ 3.4 with a 5850 on the same settings.

Does gtaIV automatically shift commands to the cpu, does it only do so when the gpu is struggling, etc?

 

[Vertibird]

5850 is not going to be a bottleneck if you like 8xAA/16 AF and max detail settings.

If you don't care about detail settings and just want higher frame rates then maybe a CPU upgrade will be more important.

 

[woolfe9999]

First of all, thanks for all the input. The advice on both sides is very sound, as it's actually a pretty close call or I wouldn't have posted looking for advice.

While I had forgotten that the 1mb version of the 4850 is priced higher, there is actually one for $99 at the Egg. So that option remains in play.

One thing I learned from this is that I was actually penny wise and pound foolish when I bought the 8800 gts 320 instead of shelling out $50 more for the 640 mb version. I based the decision on reviews at the time that were showing a 5-7% performance gap at my native resolution, but didn't realize that a much larger gap would arise with titles that weren't yet out at the time. Accordingly, I have to either buy a newly released board now instead of in a year when I could get more card for the $$, spend some $$ on a stopgap card, or else put up with poor performance in some current titles (GTA4 is a paper weight on my desk ATM.) Whereas the 640 mb version would have probably carried me through to late next year for the rebuild. The obvious lesson: you can never have too much memory on your board and it is worth some extra cash, even at 1680x1050.

Anyway, I am leaning on waiting for about a month until availability on the 5xxx cards improves, then grabbing a 5850 for hopefully $200. The idea there would be to add a second 5850 for probably $100ish in a year when I build the rig. But the 4850 1mb for $99 may yet tempt me while I wait.

Thanks again.

- woolfe

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: Vertibird
5850 is not going to be a bottleneck if you like 8xAA/16 AF and max detail settings.

If you don't care about detail settings and just want higher frame rates then maybe a CPU upgrade will be more important.

just turning on AA and AF doesnt magically make up for the cpu holding him back(if it is). sure it wont really take a hit but that doesnt change the fact that at playable settings a faster cpu would certainly help when using a card as fast as the 5850 at just 1680x1050. there is nothing besides gta4 that would not be perfectly playable but it would still be a noticeable amount of performance that would not get realized compared to running a faster cpu. a few weeks ago how many people would have suggested a gtx285 for 1680? well the 5850 is pretty good bit faster and with his cpu being the equivalent of an E8xxx at 2.7 or so I would say that it certainly a noticeable bottleneck in many newer games. it totally depends on the game but in more cpu intensive games it would certainly could be 20-25% or more that would not get utilized. if that doesnt bother him then by all means its his 260 bucks to spend.

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: woolfe9999
First of all, thanks for all the input. The advice on both sides is very sound, as it's actually a pretty close call or I wouldn't have posted looking for advice.

While I had forgotten that the 1mb version of the 4850 is priced higher, there is actually one for $99 at the Egg. So that option remains in play.

One thing I learned from this is that I was actually penny wise and pound foolish when I bought the 8800 gts 320 instead of shelling out $50 more for the 640 mb version. I based the decision on reviews at the time that were showing a 5-7% performance gap at my native resolution, but didn't realize that a much larger gap would arise with titles that weren't yet out at the time. Accordingly, I have to either buy a newly released board now instead of in a year when I could get more card for the $$, spend some $$ on a stopgap card, or else put up with poor performance in some current titles (GTA4 is a paper weight on my desk ATM.) Whereas the 640 mb version would have probably carried me through to late next year for the rebuild. The obvious lesson: you can never have too much memory on your board and it is worth some extra cash, even at 1680x1050.

Anyway, I am leaning on waiting for about a month until availability on the 5xxx cards improves, then grabbing a 5850 for hopefully $200. The idea there would be to add a second 5850 for probably $100ish in a year when I build the rig. But the 4850 1mb for $99 may yet tempt me while I wait.

Thanks again.

- woolfe

well thats because the 8800gts 320mb came out at a really by time. we were right on the edge of 512mb starting to be the minimum needed for a higher card. at 1680 a 4850 512mb will handle anything at playable settings aside from gta4(from what I hear). for that level of card at your res going with the 4850 1gb model would be wasteful for the price difference. now a 4870 could push a few higher settings in Far Cry 2 that would make having 512mb more useful but even the 4870 512mb is still an okay choice for just 1680.

going with the 5850 isnt a bad idea but just realize you are going to way off any of the benchmarks you see for that fast of a card with your cpu at just 1680. your cpu isnt slow by any means but it is still noticeably below the performance of an overclocked i7 which every review will use. at just 1680x1050 this will certainly make a difference especially in more cpu intensive and/or muti threaded games.

I personally would just jump on the $90 4850 and enjoy that nice boost over your 8800gts 320mb for now. then when you build that new pc in about a year just go for the fastest card you can afford since obviously your whole pc will be up to snuff. thats just how I do things but I can understand if you want to go ahead and get the 5850 too.