Upgrade to 5850 with weak CPU?

[cbn]

Originally posted by: toyota

Originally posted by: Vertibird
5850 is not going to be a bottleneck if you like 8xAA/16 AF and max detail settings.

If you don't care about detail settings and just want higher frame rates then maybe a CPU upgrade will be more important.

just turning on AA and AF doesnt magically make up for the cpu holding him back.

No it doesn't. The CPU is what is responsible for maxium frame rates.

But turning on AA/AF slows down the GPU processing times a lot.

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: Just learning

Originally posted by: toyota

Originally posted by: Vertibird
5850 is not going to be a bottleneck if you like 8xAA/16 AF and max detail settings.

If you don't care about detail settings and just want higher frame rates then maybe a CPU upgrade will be more important.

just turning on AA and AF doesnt magically make up for the cpu holding him back.

No it doesn't. The CPU is what is responsible for maxium frame rates.

But turning on AA/AF slows down the GPU processing times a lot.

yeah I understand what he was saying. if the cpu isnt fully up to par with the gpu that you are using then you might as well crank the graphics settings.

 

[LCD123]

Originally posted by: woolfe9999
First of all, thanks for all the input. The advice on both sides is very sound, as it's actually a pretty close call or I wouldn't have posted looking for advice.

While I had forgotten that the 1mb version of the 4850 is priced higher, there is actually one for $99 at the Egg. So that option remains in play.

One thing I learned from this is that I was actually penny wise and pound foolish when I bought the 8800 gts 320 instead of shelling out $50 more for the 640 mb version. I based the decision on reviews at the time that were showing a 5-7% performance gap at my native resolution, but didn't realize that a much larger gap would arise with titles that weren't yet out at the time. Accordingly, I have to either buy a newly released board now instead of in a year when I could get more card for the $$, spend some $$ on a stopgap card, or else put up with poor performance in some current titles (GTA4 is a paper weight on my desk ATM.) Whereas the 640 mb version would have probably carried me through to late next year for the rebuild. The obvious lesson: you can never have too much memory on your board and it is worth some extra cash, even at 1680x1050.

Anyway, I am leaning on waiting for about a month until availability on the 5xxx cards improves, then grabbing a 5850 for hopefully $200. The idea there would be to add a second 5850 for probably $100ish in a year when I build the rig. But the 4850 1mb for $99 may yet tempt me while I wait.

Thanks again.

- woolfe

You won't see $200 hd5850s till ATI releases their refresh part mid/late 2010. Youll be waiting at least 3 years before hd5850s drop to $100. Hd4850s can be had for $100 used for the 512mb verson now. Make that $150 for a used 1gb hd4870.

Why not consider a 640mb Geforce? You wanted to buy one of those, you can do that now for cheaper than back then!

As for your CPU, if you are going to upgrade it in a year, why not bump the voltage a bit and enjoy more performance? The CPU isn't gonna die that fast! If you are on stock cooling, buy a proper heatsink for $20.

Don't waste nearly $300 on the hd5850, save that for next year when they drop to $200. Youll have more money for other upgrades and you won't be as bottlenecked.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

I wouldn't really call that a weak CPU. It performs probably just as good as a Phenom X2 @ 3.6-4ghz in benchmarks, so you probably aren't going to be missing much.

Unless the game really uses a quad/tri-core effectively, your dual core overclocked it still mighty fast to feed the 5850.

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx
I wouldn't really call that a weak CPU. It performs probably just as good as a Phenom X2 @ 3.6-4ghz in benchmarks, so you probably aren't going to be missing much.

Unless the game really uses a quad/tri-core effectively, your dual core overclocked it still mighty fast to feed the 5850.

how do you figure that? his E6750 oced to 2.9 would be like an E8xxx at 2.7 or so which would most certainly be way slower than a Phenom 2 X2 at 3.6-4.0 ghz.

 

[woolfe9999]

Originally posted by: LCD123

Originally posted by: woolfe9999
First of all, thanks for all the input. The advice on both sides is very sound, as it's actually a pretty close call or I wouldn't have posted looking for advice.

While I had forgotten that the 1mb version of the 4850 is priced higher, there is actually one for $99 at the Egg. So that option remains in play.

One thing I learned from this is that I was actually penny wise and pound foolish when I bought the 8800 gts 320 instead of shelling out $50 more for the 640 mb version. I based the decision on reviews at the time that were showing a 5-7% performance gap at my native resolution, but didn't realize that a much larger gap would arise with titles that weren't yet out at the time. Accordingly, I have to either buy a newly released board now instead of in a year when I could get more card for the $$, spend some $$ on a stopgap card, or else put up with poor performance in some current titles (GTA4 is a paper weight on my desk ATM.) Whereas the 640 mb version would have probably carried me through to late next year for the rebuild. The obvious lesson: you can never have too much memory on your board and it is worth some extra cash, even at 1680x1050.

Anyway, I am leaning on waiting for about a month until availability on the 5xxx cards improves, then grabbing a 5850 for hopefully $200. The idea there would be to add a second 5850 for probably $100ish in a year when I build the rig. But the 4850 1mb for $99 may yet tempt me while I wait.

Thanks again.

- woolfe

You won't see $200 hd5850s till ATI releases their refresh part mid/late 2010. Youll be waiting at least 3 years before hd5850s drop to $100. Hd4850s can be had for $100 used for the 512mb verson now. Make that $150 for a used 1gb hd4870.

Why not consider a 640mb Geforce? You wanted to buy one of those, you can do that now for cheaper than back then!

As for your CPU, if you are going to upgrade it in a year, why not bump the voltage a bit and enjoy more performance? The CPU isn't gonna die that fast! If you are on stock cooling, buy a proper heatsink for $20.

Don't waste nearly $300 on the hd5850, save that for next year when they drop to $200. Youll have more money for other upgrades and you won't be as bottlenecked.

Are you sure of those projections on price declination of the 5850? They seem pessimistic to me. The card is available for $260 now, not $300 (USD). The street price has to go down when availability improves simply because of competition at the retail and board maker level, even without competition from the green team. And the MSRP of the AMD line will certainly fall when GT300 is released, presumably in early 2010. Three years for a $100 5850? It took only one year for the 4850 to get that low, from a starting MSRP only a little lower.

- Dave

 

[woolfe9999]

Originally posted by: toyota

Originally posted by: woolfe9999
First of all, thanks for all the input. The advice on both sides is very sound, as it's actually a pretty close call or I wouldn't have posted looking for advice.

While I had forgotten that the 1mb version of the 4850 is priced higher, there is actually one for $99 at the Egg. So that option remains in play.

One thing I learned from this is that I was actually penny wise and pound foolish when I bought the 8800 gts 320 instead of shelling out $50 more for the 640 mb version. I based the decision on reviews at the time that were showing a 5-7% performance gap at my native resolution, but didn't realize that a much larger gap would arise with titles that weren't yet out at the time. Accordingly, I have to either buy a newly released board now instead of in a year when I could get more card for the $$, spend some $$ on a stopgap card, or else put up with poor performance in some current titles (GTA4 is a paper weight on my desk ATM.) Whereas the 640 mb version would have probably carried me through to late next year for the rebuild. The obvious lesson: you can never have too much memory on your board and it is worth some extra cash, even at 1680x1050.

Anyway, I am leaning on waiting for about a month until availability on the 5xxx cards improves, then grabbing a 5850 for hopefully $200. The idea there would be to add a second 5850 for probably $100ish in a year when I build the rig. But the 4850 1mb for $99 may yet tempt me while I wait.

Thanks again.

- woolfe

well thats because the 8800gts 320mb came out at a really by time. we were right on the edge of 512mb starting to be the minimum needed for a higher card. at 1680 a 4850 512mb will handle anything at playable settings aside from gta4(from what I hear). for that level of card at your res going with the 4850 1gb model would be wasteful for the price difference.

As I said above, the 1mb version of the 4850 can be had for $99 after rebate right now, so there isn't really that much price differential. In fact, if I'm only looking at Newegg, the cheapest 512 mb version is just $3 cheaper. While the difference between 512 and 1 mb may only be significant for GTA4 right now, it could make a difference in titles released over the next year, before I would upgrade to a new board in late 2010.

- woolfe

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: woolfe9999

As I said above, the 1mb version of the 4850 can be had for $99 after rebate right now, so there isn't really that much price differential. In fact, if I'm only looking at Newegg, the cheapest 512 mb version is just $3 cheaper. While the difference between 512 and 1 mb may only be significant for GTA4 right now, it could make a difference in titles released over the next year, before I would upgrade to a new board in late 2010.

- woolfe

my bad. I misread what you said. I thought you said IF they actually had a 4850 1gb for $99 it would be an option. yeah if you do decide on the 4850 then of course get the 1gb since its only a few bucks more.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
either that or they use their common sense and see that a game with decent graphics requires a LOT more horsepower than another game with similar graphics.

I would be curious to see that same website evaluate an e6750 @ 3.4 with a 5850 on the same settings.

Does gtaIV automatically shift commands to the cpu, does it only do so when the gpu is struggling, etc?

Yeah well. that game is really cpu dependent. GPU power has very little to do with it except how much vram it has.

I still played high settings with my system just fine. Dropping to teens in heavy scenes still not bad at all considering the nature of the game.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

Originally posted by: toyota

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx
I wouldn't really call that a weak CPU. It performs probably just as good as a Phenom X2 @ 3.6-4ghz in benchmarks, so you probably aren't going to be missing much.

Unless the game really uses a quad/tri-core effectively, your dual core overclocked it still mighty fast to feed the 5850.

how do you figure that? his E6750 oced to 2.9 would be like an E8xxx at 2.7 or so which would most certainly be way slower than a Phenom 2 X2 at 3.6-4.0 ghz.

In benchmarks, the Core2 series still comes out way ahead of the Phenom/Athlon CPUs. It's just facts. If the GPU can effectively utilize 100% of the production of the CPU (which the 5850 can) then the Core2 will come out far faster per clock.

If we were talking about an underpowered GPU (G80/G92, 4850 and below) that can't fully utilize a modern CPU then it wouldn't matter what CPU we're thinking about choosing as he'd be GPU bottlenecked. In gaming the difference is only about a 10-20% (at absolute most) difference in performance/clock when comparing a decent Core2 to a PhenomX2. In general computing, the Phenom X2/X4 still takes a huge beating at times from the very basic Core2 duo/quads.

(ref. how even sometimes the Q6600/Q8200 meets or beats out a Phenom X4 940 3Ghz in many benchmarks.)

Also, despite the faster stock FSB and an extra 2MB of L2 on an E8xxx CPU, an E6xxx is not very far behind. +/- 5%. It is even shown with a quad core that going from 4MB of L2 to 6MB (ref. Q8400/Q9400) of L2 in heavy CPU tasks doesn't show a tangible difference. So using that comparison with a dual makes it even more clear.

A 6750 @ 2.9ghz is a goodm atch for a 5850 for now, but when he really decides to play modern and near future games he might want to consider an upgrade. Getting a Q9550 right now would be his best bet to stave off an upgrade for a year or two.

This is personal opinion, and not flame-bait. I am not anti-amd whatsoever, but it conceived from my constant lurking, reading and purchasing decisions.

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx

Originally posted by: toyota

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx
I wouldn't really call that a weak CPU. It performs probably just as good as a Phenom X2 @ 3.6-4ghz in benchmarks, so you probably aren't going to be missing much.

Unless the game really uses a quad/tri-core effectively, your dual core overclocked it still mighty fast to feed the 5850.

how do you figure that? his E6750 oced to 2.9 would be like an E8xxx at 2.7 or so which would most certainly be way slower than a Phenom 2 X2 at 3.6-4.0 ghz.

In benchmarks, the Core2 series still comes out way ahead of the Phenom/Athlon CPUs. It's just facts. If the GPU can effectively utilize 100% of the production of the CPU (which the 5850 can) then the Core2 will come out far faster per clock.

If we were talking about an underpowered GPU (G80/G92, 4850 and below) that can't fully utilize a modern CPU then it wouldn't matter what CPU we're thinking about choosing as he'd be GPU bottlenecked. In gaming the difference is only about a 10-20% (at absolute most) difference in performance/clock when comparing a decent Core2 to a PhenomX2. In general computing, the Phenom X2/X4 still takes a huge beating at times from the very basic Core2 duo/quads.

(ref. how even sometimes the Q6600/Q8200 meets or beats out a Phenom X4 940 3Ghz in many benchmarks.)

Also, despite the faster stock FSB and an extra 2MB of L2 on an E8xxx CPU, an E6xxx is not very far behind. +/- 5%. It is even shown with a quad core that going from 4MB of L2 to 6MB (ref. Q8400/Q9400) of L2 in heavy CPU tasks doesn't show a tangible difference. So using that comparison with a dual makes it even more clear.

A 6750 @ 2.9ghz is a goodm atch for a 5850 for now, but when he really decides to play modern and near future games he might want to consider an upgrade. Getting a Q9550 right now would be his best bet to stave off an upgrade for a year or two.

This is personal opinion, and not flame-bait. I am not anti-amd whatsoever, but it conceived from my constant lurking, reading and purchasing decisions.

you really need to check the reviews again because a Phenom 2 X2 at 3.6 to 4.0 will easily beat his E6750 at 2.9. the Phenom 2 cpus are not much slower clock for clock than the current Core 2 cpus. basically his E6750 at 2.9 would be about the same as a Phenom 2 X2 at 3.0-3.1.

see here where the 3.1 Phenom 2 X2 550 ranges from dead even to easily beating the 2.93 E7500 Core 2 duo. http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...lon-ii-x2_9.html#sect0

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx
If we were talking about an underpowered GPU (G80/G92, 4850 and below) that can't fully utilize a modern CPU then it wouldn't matter what CPU we're thinking about choosing as he'd be GPU bottlenecked. In gaming the difference is only about a 10-20% (at absolute most) difference in performance/clock when comparing a decent Core2 to a PhenomX2. In general computing, the Phenom X2/X4 still takes a huge beating at times from the very basic Core2 duo/quads.

I don't quite agree with your assessment here. 4850 and below are still CPU limited to a degree. It just depends on what resolution and settings applied.

 

[Tullphan]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
naw, everybody knows that 5770 will be good for solitaire. well, at least until solitaire 2010 arrives.

Hopefully, they'll start selling solitaire 2010 during the Christmas season. I figure since car manufacturers put the new models out in late summer/early fall, then solitaire 2010 should be out next month?
If so, i'm all over that!

:laugh:

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx
In benchmarks, the Core2 series still comes out way ahead of the Phenom/Athlon CPUs. It's just facts. If the GPU can effectively utilize 100% of the production of the CPU (which the 5850 can) then the Core2 will come out far faster per clock.

If we were talking about an underpowered GPU (G80/G92, 4850 and below) that can't fully utilize a modern CPU then it wouldn't matter what CPU we're thinking about choosing as he'd be GPU bottlenecked. In gaming the difference is only about a 10-20% (at absolute most) difference in performance/clock when comparing a decent Core2 to a PhenomX2. In general computing, the Phenom X2/X4 still takes a huge beating at times from the very basic Core2 duo/quads.

(ref. how even sometimes the Q6600/Q8200 meets or beats out a Phenom X4 940 3Ghz in many benchmarks.)

Also, despite the faster stock FSB and an extra 2MB of L2 on an E8xxx CPU, an E6xxx is not very far behind. +/- 5%. It is even shown with a quad core that going from 4MB of L2 to 6MB (ref. Q8400/Q9400) of L2 in heavy CPU tasks doesn't show a tangible difference. So using that comparison with a dual makes it even more clear.

A 6750 @ 2.9ghz is a goodm atch for a 5850 for now, but when he really decides to play modern and near future games he might want to consider an upgrade. Getting a Q9550 right now would be his best bet to stave off an upgrade for a year or two.

This is personal opinion, and not flame-bait. I am not anti-amd whatsoever, but it conceived from my constant lurking, reading and purchasing decisions.

You should investigate further, because in games, the Phenom X2 can sometimes even rival the Core i7 in some games (Not in CPU hungry games like GTA4).

The Phenom X2 may be slighly slower in a per clock basis compared to the Core 2 architecture, but its integrated memory controller its efficient cache hierarchy is quite great for gaming, even though the Core 2 has more raw power, its FSB approach is the limiting factor to reach its full potential in some scenarios, plus some other bottlenecks like the underutilization of the Core 2 front end.

 

[cbn]

I wouldn't get the 4850 1GB unless you got a deal on a used one.

5750 1GB is already selling for a discount.