Question Upgrade CPU & MB now or wait for fall refreshes?

[2blzd]

PC: x99 w/ i7 6800k (6c) @ 4ghz + 32GB DDR4-3200 + 3090 FE
Monitor: 38" 3840x1600p @ 144hz

Gaming habits are inconsistent, but I still want the top or near the top single thread performance. I edit video and create content for a living using the Adobe Suite, so multi-core is very important.

Upgraded GPU to 3090 FE in beginning of Feb. Was planning on waiting for ADL-S to upgrade the rest of the system but now have doubts. I'd be down for a 5900X but availability is an issue and don't want to go out of my way to have to obtain one.

Doubts for waiting

1) DDR5 will have a price premium and be really expensive and possibly scarce at launch. After going through that with the 3000 RTX cards, I don't want to play that game again.
2) Realizing I'd have a 3090 in use for 10+ months on a 6 year old platform with 6 cores..ie leaving performance on the table for that long of a time period... Doesn't sit well.
3) I don't NEED to upgrade to the best of the best, something I've learned over the years, which is hard to admit. (and if you're wondering about the 3090, it wasn't my first choice, I bought what I could get ) I just need more cores than I currently have.


Tentative ideas:

1) Snag an i9 10850k for $319 and z490 motherboard for $300 or less @ Micro Center (they have $20 off combo so $600), reuse my DDR4-3200, cooler, psu and case. Revisit ADL-S and possibly Zen 3+ Warhol after they launch and decide for a "full upgrade" then.

2) buy certified Intel refurb i9 6950X (10c) off ebay for $260. Drop in, change nothing else and wait for fall releases.

3) Do nothing and wait.


Thoughts?

 

[B-Riz]

In general, I agree with this completely. There are exceptions and I think the OP may be one of them. I'm also in that camp (sort of). Most people who "do work" on their computer aren't sitting around waiting on large, CPU hungry operations to complete. For those who do work like that, then Ryzen is the only choice. It just is. It completely mauls anything Intel has to offer. We know how bad it is for Intel here, and it's ugly. But for those like the OP who've been getting by fine on an older 6 core, then a cheaper stop-gap 10 core is a good move and is already more than enough power likely.
I do work on my PC also, but it's drafting and design work and it doesn't give a crap what kind of CPU you have (within reason). So, I find it hard to justify spending so much more on a Ryzen chip when a 10850K is in the $300 range or 10700K is $250. Once the 10th gen is gone and it's between Alder Lake and the next Ryzen chips, they will both be expensive anyway, so at that point you just go with the best one. If a 12700K is $400 and a new Ryzen is $450 and the Ryzen is faster, at that point I just get the Ryzen. This is the same reason people have purchased enough R5 3600's to form a literal mountain if you put them all in one place, despite Intel being much faster for gaming and everything else than that particular chip. Price matters for most people.

It's not just price that matters, it is the value of the product (and why I am feeling negative about Intel right now, poor value). A Ryzen 5 3600 is a great entry chip into the modern AM4 platform, a nice board can be bought with it for future Zen2 and Zen3 upgrades if the user so desires, while Intel is a buy and flip later in this case, as it is a cheaper but dead platform.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

No one in this discussion is wrong or right, we just have different perspectives. OP is not making a bad choice, I just think it is an inferior one, because of my life's experience. Time is money, and spend money to make money (within reason), were 2 principles that never failed me in my biz life.

About the 3600: It's not only bang for buck that makes it so popular. It is certainly not the only reason I have 2 systems running on them. For me, the fact you can use it in 3 generations of boards, replace it with something significantly better later, or swap for the best desktop APUs, factored in heavily. Price was important, but versatility, and serious upgradability, were equally important. Something Intel has been lagging behind on for too long now. They are getting with the program finally, but it took getting punched in the mouth to do it.

 

[2blzd]

Responses in bold.

No one in this discussion is wrong or right, we just have different perspectives. OP is not making a bad choice, I just think it is an inferior one, because of my life's experience. Time is money, and spend money to make money (within reason), were 2 principles that never failed me in my biz life.

About the 3600: It's not only bang for buck that makes it so popular. It is certainly not the only reason I have 2 systems running on them. For me, the fact you can use it in 3 generations of boards, replace it with something significantly better later, or swap for the best desktop APUs, factored in heavily. Price was important, but versatility, and serious upgradability, were equally important. Something Intel has been lagging behind on for too long now. They are getting with the program finally, but it took getting punched in the mouth to do it.

100%. And believe me when I say this, I'm glad you're replying with your opinions and experiences, and being firm with them... this is what I need to hear. It's challenged me to take off the blinders and take a step back from my own perspective that Ive settled in.

I just hope you understand where I'm coming from when I say this, I have to be real with myself. Taking a look at my own personal history as always wanting to get the best of the best and not necessarily always needing it. Time is always money, that is not debatable. To put it bluntly I'm just not busy enough to where spending more money to make money makes sense (right now). You are right in that statement, I just dont think it applies to me currently.

I think I've resolved to spend a little money now to get the ball rolling and as I get busy again and can justify it, will without a doubt go big.

I appreciate you all taking the time to respond and give your perspectives and opinions. Its so refreshing after using reddit for the last few years...I forgot what real conversations were like

Edit: @DAPUNISHER Admittedly Ive never been good at spending money to make money because of my frugal (cheap) nature. It's always been a weakness of mine in business. I tend to rent a lot of camera gear because I'm afraid to commit to an expensive ever changing landscape. Although I am buying a new drone this month, I wanted to ask if you had any tips in this regard? Is it just like peeling off a band aid? just gotta do it and hope for the best? (spending to make).

 

[coercitiv]

I have yet to understand how we're counting every dollar for a value purchase in the CPU of a system equipped with one of the most expensive consumer GPUs ever made.

 

[2blzd]

I have yet to understand how we're counting every dollar for a value purchase in the CPU of a system equipped with one of the most expensive consumer GPUs ever made.

Haha totally. I tried to explain that away in my OP as something out of the ordinary due to market conditions. I was trying for a 3080 and ended up with a 3090 because that's all that was available to get. I feel like a lot of people were in that situation. I'd never dream of spending $1600 on a videocard..it just kind of happened and looking back it was a great decision (because of market circumstances). I was able to sell my 1070 GTX for $475 after owning it for 6 years.

 

[blckgrffn]

Haha totally. I tried to explain that away in my OP as something out of the ordinary due to market conditions. I was trying for a 3080 and ended up with a 3090 because that's all that was available to get. I feel like a lot of people were in that situation. I'd never dream of spending $1600 on a videocard..it just kind of happened and looking back it was a great decision (because of market circumstances). I was able to sell my 1070 GTX for $475 after owning it for 6 years.

Honestly, I think that will age better (performance/value/availability wise) at that price than the CPUs you are considering. If you were really in for ~$1300 out of pocket after selling your 1070 and you have a 3090 you look like a genius in my book. That's like 3060 money right now

 

[2blzd]

Honestly, I think that will age better (performance/value/availability wise) at that price than the CPUs you are considering. If you were really in for ~$1300 out of pocket after selling your 1070 and you have a 3090 you look like a genius in my book. That's like 3060 money right now

So I thought you were joking but decided to search ebay for 3060 ti's.. $1200+ You gotta be f'n kidding! @_@

 

[Muadib]

So I thought you were joking but decided to search ebay for 3060 ti's.. $1200+ You gotta be f'n kidding! @_@

It's been like that for most of this year. It's the reason I have a 3090FE now. I got it at MSRP, and that was a bargain I couldn't turn down.

 

[2blzd]

It's been like that for most of this year. It's the reason I have a 3090FE now. I got it at MSRP, and that was a bargain I couldn't turn down.

Last I looked was in Feb, I thought $1200 range was 3070 territory...jesus! I got my 3090 FE for msrp off a Best Buy drop on 1/22. 12 Months 0% interest helped make the decision easy.

 

[Muadib]

Last I looked was in Feb, I thought $1200 range was 3070 territory...jesus! I got my 3090 FE for msrp off a Best Buy drop on 1/22. 12 Months 0% interest helped make the decision easy.

I think I got mine two weeks before you got yours. I wanted to get another for a relative, but could not. He wants a 3080ti now, but I told him not to hold his breath.

 

[moonbogg]

I think I got mine two weeks before you got yours. I wanted to get another for a relative, but could not. He wants a 3080ti now, but I told him not to hold his breath.

We'll evolve back into fish before you find an in-stock 3080Ti.

 

[nerp]

Interesting thread. For the record, I went from a i7-6700k and got a z490 (TUF Gaming z490 Plus with i219-v, not i225, thank god) paired with an i5-10400 last summer. The board was $149 and the CPU was $170 at the time. I was blown away by the improvement. I have since swapped in an i9-10900f I paid $309 for and removed all power limits so I'm basically close to K chip at stock performance. It really is a beast and I think you'd be happy with the 10850k combo you're looking at. You'd essentially be looking at the same clocks and power usage that I'm getting with this setup. I'm impressed by the Ryzen chips but like you, I wanted something to give me a bump now for a reasonable price and to pair with my 3070 (I paid $649 in Jan for it somehow), wanted a 3080 but realize now I'm in a very good sweet spot. I WAS considering sliding the i5 over to a side rig and build a complete Ryzen system but similar market forces you're seeing, plus DDR5 and PCIe5 literally right around the corner. . .I decided to 1. be just 'set' for now and for some time and avoid a total new build. 2. not even THINK about building again until 2023 or 2024. By then we will know where Intel/AMD stand.

Couple thoughts:

I think PCIe4 for gamers and people who don't have very serious storage needs is going to be a skipover generation. PCIe3 to 4 is going to be short and the jump, for almost everyone, isn't even really noticeable or worth the storage price premium. PCIe5 is going to be the real leap and will probably have similar longevity to 3. We'll looked back at 4 as the in-between gen and I'm happy to skip it.

DDR5 is going to be absolutely necessary for any top end build when it comes out. I do not want to be that guy sinking money into a 5900x build when DDR5 is out next year. I'd rather skip PCIe4 and move to the 5s all at once.

Unless you absolutely need PCIe Gen 4 storage, don't rule out z490 boards. z590 boards are more expensive than their z490 equivalents, sometimes ridiculously so. You're not going to run DDR-3200 or 3600 any faster on z590. You don't gain much else other than RKL support. Shrug. AND -- this can be critical, some of the 3-slot z590 and other even 2-slot 500 series boards won't even let you use a PCIe 3 nvme in one of the nvme slots. A few are 4 only. Well, that means I'd have to buy another freaking new SSD and I don't need that. That's me, might not be an issue for you.

b560 and even h570 boards don't have the ram speed limitations that b460, h470 boards have, yes. But read the fine print for each board and you realize you only get the faster ram speeds, XMP with 11th gen chips. With a 10th gen chip, you're essentially buying a $50 to $100 more expensive b460 with zero advantage and one non-functional m.2 slot. Not only do some of these boards only support pcie4 ssds in some slots, some of them _only_ support pcie4 ssds in those slots, period. And --- this was eye opening. They WON'T run pcie 3 ssds even with 10th gen chips installed. So it's Rocket Lake only to have that m.2 slot active. That means a 10th gen chip in b560 is STILL limited to 2933mhz RAM and has one useless m.2 slot. Yikes!

One thing that _really_ worked out for me was going with a low-cost z490 board, the best value 10th gen i5 then jumping on the ridiculous price for the i9 just recently. I ended up avoiding the entire market pressure situation somehow.

When I originally got my z490 and i5-10400, there were no 5600x, 5800x, 5900x on the market. 3000 series nvidia GPUs were "around the corner" and everyone expected them to be available like normal times. The motherboard situation was different, too, so there was no promise of getting a cheap ryzen 3600 system and plopping in a 5900x this year. Nobody knew how things would shake out. I realized the i5-10400 with power limits removed, fast ram and z490 was the best bang/buck at the time and it remained that way all year. Now here we are with a disappointing RKL launch, great zen 3 stuff, pandemic and semiconductor shortage, jaked up motherboard prices on the intel side, 10/11th gen compatibility tedium, uncertainty about ADL, new DDR and PCIe standards coming and frankly, I'm glad I'm just done with an i9, tons of fast ram, a good gpu and no more thinking about this for a few years. I'm letting the market shake out and it's fun to watch.

Meanwhile I've been having fun digging out my old Lian Li PC-Q08 itx case from 2010 and making some modifications for a silent side rig around the i5. Always need another excuse to turn upgraded-out parts into new systems.

 

[VirtualLarry]

b560 and even h570 boards don't have the ram speed limitations that b460, h470 boards have, yes. But read the fine print for each board and you realize you only get the faster ram speeds, XMP with 11th gen chips.

NOT true. I was able to get DDR4-3200 running in an ASRock B560-HDV with a Pentium Gold G6400 10th-gen CPU. (CPU-Z memory clock of 1600mhz.)

Whether this is due to "Intel spec" or "ASRock bios shenanigans", I cannot say.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

NOT true. I was able to get DDR4-3200 running in an ASRock B560-HDV with a Pentium Gold G6400 10th-gen CPU. (CPU-Z memory clock of 1600mhz.)

Whether this is due to "Intel spec" or "ASRock bios shenanigans", I cannot say.

Can confirm: the ASRock B560M-HDV, i5 10400, and DDR4 3200, work perfectly together. I did not remove all the power limits, though I increased them for improved performance. It is rock solid stable, and an old Hyper 212 from the parts bin is easily keeping it cool and quiet. <- see what I did there?

 

[nerp]

Then that's news to me. I checked a few boards myself and the tech specs indicated that 11th gen only supported DDR4-3200 and 10th was limited to 2933. I'll look closer and make sure I didn't misread. But this was a red flag when I was doing research and I was pretty sure that some of the boards did have this limitation. I am not sure if I was looking at XMP or not, though.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Then that's news to me. I checked a few boards myself and the tech specs indicated that 11th gen only supported DDR4-3200 and 10th was limited to 2933. I'll look closer and make sure I didn't misread. But this was a red flag when I was doing research and I was pretty sure that some of the boards did have this limitation. I am not sure if I was looking at XMP or not, though.

Give me a minute brother, I should have a 3D mark score, with all of the power limits at their stock minimums, I can share, that shows the pertinent info. BRB.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Here it is - https://www.3dmark.com/fs/25341884

Pay no mind to the Vega56, it is running a stock bios, as I am not pushing it hard, due to what it would cost to replace if it failed.

Oh, and you are not wrong. Every review I have seen covers the Intel bullet points, and the ram speed you stated is one of them.

I am going to see if it will handle 3600MHz stable, I will post if it does.

 

[Muadib]

We'll evolve back into fish before you find an in-stock 3080Ti.

Challenge accepted!! Now we have to see if the rumors of the 3080Ti coming out next month are true. I have my doubts too because Nvidia can't keep anything in stock, so why kill 3090 sales? Time will tell though.

 

[moonbogg]

If mining crashes, I wonder if the massive influx of used 3000 series cards flooding the market could actually hurt Nvidia's 4000 series sales. If it happens, it will basically be an entire generation's worth of GPUs suddenly hitting ebay because they are almost all being used for mining. An entire generation of cards being used for mining instead of gaming. That's crazy.

 

[VirtualLarry]

That's crazy.

That's Capitalism.

That's AMERICA!


...Mine it like you stole it!!! (out of Gamers' hands...)

 

[blckgrffn]

If mining crashes, I wonder if the massive influx of used 3000 series cards flooding the market could actually hurt Nvidia's 4000 series sales. If it happens, it will basically be an entire generation's worth of GPUs suddenly hitting ebay because they are almost all being used for mining. An entire generation of cards being used for mining instead of gaming. That's crazy.

This has to be keeping some folks up at night. It will damage the coming years sales of GPUs for all parties. AMD, nvidia and even Intel could face the fact that we are awash in 3060+ parts (not to mention all the RDNA v1 AND all the pascal/turing cards that will come smashing back to market) and what they need to deliver in terms of price and performance to compete with themselves is darn near disastrous. They could be seeing a year or two of consumption all coming in as fast as they can mint cards. A huge landmine.

Couple that with the fact that modern mining with optimized software and power profiles actually doesn't seem to fry cards quite like the first wave of BTC mining seemed to really smash cards after a while, the glut of supply hitting the pent up demand could be truly epic.

Remember $300 2070 Supers? $450 2080 Tis? Just when there was MSRP availability of Ampere in that brief window of time it seemed like we were going to have a crazy uplift in performance for gamers in all price tiers. Then boom, the dream died.

The boom and bust cycles of this mining GPU market aren't great.

It's likely better for everyone that ETH mining on GPUs becomes a bit less of an every man thing and there is a somewhat slow settling out of the market vs a huge panic dump from all the folks who have 10-100 miners right now thinking they were going to get the $1k per card value when they decided to cash out seeing ebay prices melt all at once. That's the kind of dump that could really hurt us all in the long term.

 

[2blzd]

Interesting thread.

Yea I agree and understand with a lot of what you're saying. Though, my z590 board cost as much as any of the z490 boards I was looking at , so I went with one, Aorus Elite AX for $219. I was intially looking at z490 boards until I saw the price difference was negligible at the level I was looking at. It has 3x NVME slots, 1x4.0 + 2x3.0 so I will be fine in that regard, as I have a samsung 960 pro and I plan on buying a SK hynix p31 gold this week. I will go all in on high end storage (4.0/5.0 maybe?) for ADL-S or RPL-S.


I told myself I wouldn't but now I'm looking at new cases....haha. 6 year old CM Storm Scout 2...Its fine but I could use a modern case.



Haven't opened the 10850k or the mobo yet, as I dont have the noctua bracket I need or the thermal paste I want. So I'm going to give myself 48 hours while those ship from AMZ to kinda look for a 5900x.

I found one locally for $50 over MSRP but am going to pass because AMD.com doesnt honor warranty from non original purchaser. I don't want to buy from a private seller tbh anyway.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The boom and bust cycles of this mining GPU market aren't great.

It's likely better for everyone that ETH mining on GPUs becomes a bit less of an every man thing and there is a somewhat slow settling out of the market vs a huge panic dump from all the folks who have 10-100 miners right now thinking they were going to get the $1k per card value when they decided to cash out seeing ebay prices melt all at once. That's the kind of dump that could really hurt us all in the long term.

Sounds like, fun fun fun all around, when the GPU bubble bursts.

Edit: Sadly, the tariffs and supply-chain / component shortages and subsequent MSRP increases (2x!), means that we may never go back to "old GPU pricing", even if the mining GPU bubble pops! That's something to think about, too.

 

[moonbogg]

Sounds like, fun fun fun all around, when the GPU bubble bursts.

Edit: Sadly, the tariffs and supply-chain / component shortages and subsequent MSRP increases (2x!), means that we may never go back to "old GPU pricing", even if the mining GPU bubble pops! That's something to think about, too.

They can charge as much as they want, but once the high-paying mining customers are gone, those GPUs simply won't sell as well, regardless of any justification for the price increases they give. Tariffs, supply shortages, whatever. It won't matter without miners to buy everything up at high prices, because most gamers aren't paying 2X traditional pricing for gaming cards. If gamers are the majority of the customer base, then prices will have to return to normal or they will be selling much lower numbers.
Maybe there's enough gamers willing to spend $1500 on a Ti, $1000 on an X80, and $600 on a X60 class. Maybe we'll find out.

 

[VirtualLarry]

They can charge as much as they want, but once the high-paying mining customers are gone, those GPUs simply won't sell as well, regardless of any justification for the price increases they give. Tariffs, supply shortages, whatever. It won't matter without miners to buy everything up at high prices, because most gamers aren't paying 2X traditional pricing for gaming cards. If gamers are the majority of the customer base, then prices will have to return to normal or they will be selling much lower numbers.
Maybe there's enough gamers willing to spend $1500 on a Ti, $1000 on an X80, and $600 on a X60 class. Maybe we'll find out.

I disagree. With all of the money-printing and "Free money" flowing around the world, there will be more dollars (or whatever local currency) chasing GPUs, thus their prices won't have to fall back to prior levels. Any "gamer" that isn't willing to pay the new price for GPUs, isn't really a very worthy "gamer" anymore, IMHO. Best that they buy a 5-year old console and stay there.