UPenn swimmer takin' names and setting records!

[emperus]

The answer is simple for me. If I were to be of athletic age, and wished to become a female, I would be bound by my own moral sensibilities not to participate in competitive athletic sports.

Very true. Competed in sports in High School and I think this is wholly unfair to the woman who trained their whole lives for this.

 

[nickqt]

Female/Male is better considering that genetics is extremely messy.

I mean, except in extremely rare cases, genetics is not messy.

You either have XX or XY.

Not a lot of give and take on that one.

That's a whole 'nuther thread worth discussing. "Travel teams" that aren't affiliated with schools are basically killing youth sports. It's turning into a pay to play and letting the rest of the programs die on the vine at the cost of low income kids getting fucked over and not being able to compete.

Hey, sportsball is great or whatever, but school should be for learnin' and teachers are already ridiculously underpaid and academics typically underfunded.

So, if schools want sportsball, students test and can then join into the XX or XY league, and look at that, I just solved the whole god damn problem/issue/outrage with this entirely created problem.

Next.

 

[woolfe9998]

My position is as follows: Let's look at how to make this as fair as we can by studying the issue and go wherever the evidence leads.

If there is something that can be done to make it more fair, lets do that.

There isn't anything. Taking hormones only accounts for a portion of the male advantage.

There is only one solution. You compete in the category corresponding to the gender you were assigned at birth. If you are ftm, you can dress and appear as a woman and be referred to by commentators and team mates as "she," but you're still competing with men.

 

[EduCat]

I mean, except in extremely rare cases, genetics is not messy.

You either have XX or XY.

Not a lot of give and take on that one.

Hey, sportsball is great or whatever, but school should be for learnin' and teachers are already ridiculously underpaid and academics typically underfunded.

So, if schools want sportsball, students test and can then join into the XX or XY league, and look at that, I just solved the whole god damn problem/issue/outrage with this entirely created problem.

Next.

LoL such a strange response. Many schools often have grade requirements in order to play sports, and you'd be surprised how much you 'learn' from participating in sports up to the collegiate level. There's a good chance that some of these athletes could out wit you, out run you, and out lead you. The fact that you think men competing against women in high level sports is a made up problem is strange.

 

[nickqt]

LoL such a strange response. Many schools often have grade requirements in order to play sports, and you'd be surprised how much you 'learn' from participating in sports up to the collegiate level. There's a good chance that some of these athletes could out wit you, out run you, and out lead you. The fact that you think men competing against women in high level sports is a made up problem is strange.

Work on your reading comprehension and try again.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Great, more nerds that don't understand jack fucking shit about gender, biology, or sports, here to get outraged about sports that they've openly derided (or otherwise only had sexual comments to make) being unfair to people they only view as objects to fuck. If only I could take your concerns about fairness seriously when you clowns won't even give half a shit about reducing the 100 other ways people get unfair advantages in sports.

 

[Brovane]

I heard that swimmer story last week. When they were male he was average. A few years later female and shattering records. It's completely unfair to the other females on the team.

Because of the inherent physical advantages of being born male I don't favor them competing in women's sports

I do have a constructive question, if you take the times of Lia Thomas and move those times to the male swimmers how do they hold up?

The 200 Yard free time that was swam by Thomas wouldn't even crack the top 100 for NCAA male swimmers for this event. However swimming as a woman the time of 1:41 is top in the nation.

 

[vi edit]

First of all, I agree with the majority here that mtf tg's shouldn't be competing in women's sports, especially at high levels. It isn't fair to biologically female athletes.

That aside, some of your analogies are flawed. No one is born predisposed to want a face tattoo. But people are born gay, and some at least seem to be born with a predisposition to identify with the gender to which they were not assigned at birth. So it isn't that simple as being a choice for people in that category. In the old days, people born gay made a choice to live as straight people, but it wasn't really a fair dilemma to impose on them. So it isn't just a matter of personal choice. It's also a question of the tolerance of others.

So people make choices in part based on how others will react. That employers prefer employees without face tattoos is one thing. That they may prefer someone who is straight, or white, or male, or non-TG, is another. Because people are predisposed to belong to those categories and in the case of gays and TG's, their only "choice" is to pretend to be someone they are not.

For sure they aren't great analogs, but then again there really aren't many good ones for this topic.

There are just a lot of situations in life where there are decisions you have to make that are in your own best interest, and there are decisions that have to take into account the interest of others. Choosing to go through reassignment is in your own best interest. Wanting to participate in certain activities after that is a question on how it impacts others. Other people are affected by this. My daughter coming out as gay is one thing. She's now my gay daughter. It's not something that changes my day to day conversations with her, family or other associated people in our lives. Wanting to be classified as non-binary is very different. I have to change an entire dialogue in every day conversation. I have to actively correct my son. Her grandparents. Hell it's almost erasure of her identity *to me*. And this is where I struggle on a lot of these as an individual, and with how society in general perceives it.

These decisions do impact other people around you and I do think it's fair for them to have their own opinions on it. There are still some boundaries to tolerance.

 

[Moonbeam]

Sure, but don't you know the world is all about judging others?

Sure, but don't you know the world is all about judging others?

Not to worry. I won't let you down. I am deeply committed to my judgment that judgmental people are worthless as shit.

 

[interchange]

Not to worry. I won't let you down. I am deeply committed to my judgment that judgmental people are worthless as shit.

Projecting like the rest of us. That's more like it! 😁

 

[Moonbeam]

Projecting like the rest of us. That's more like it! 😁

In this wonderful whack-a-mole world you never ever want to be different. Given the nature of psychological trauma to emotionally wide open children, who, unfortunately for them of course, have not yet erected ego defenses, it's no wonder that religions have declared any deviation from the one true path to lead to damnation. It's just an unfortunate accident of human nature that once one experiences judgmental damnation the recommended path out of it just takes us right back there. The long and the short of it all then, I guess I would say is that if you have a negative view of life and the future it's a sure sign that we were long ago fucked. So keep a sharp eye out for anybody who says it's a lie and there's nothing really wrong with us. Carry a big big mallet and thump him or her on the head.

 

[woolfe9998]

For sure they aren't great analogs, but then again there really aren't many good ones for this topic.

There are just a lot of situations in life where there are decisions you have to make that are in your own best interest, and there are decisions that have to take into account the interest of others. Choosing to go through reassignment is in your own best interest. Wanting to participate in certain activities after that is a question on how it impacts others. Other people are affected by this. My daughter coming out as gay is one thing. She's now my gay daughter. It's not something that changes my day to day conversations with her, family or other associated people in our lives. Wanting to be classified as non-binary is very different. I have to change an entire dialogue in every day conversation. I have to actively correct my son. Her grandparents. Hell it's almost erasure of her identity *to me*. And this is where I struggle on a lot of these as an individual, and with how society in general perceives it.

These decisions do impact other people around you and I do think it's fair for them to have their own opinions on it. There are still some boundaries to tolerance.

It's more than just "what's in your own best interests" when you're talking about something central to your identity.

Doesn't having a gay child also change conversations you may have? You may mention your daughter's "girlfriend" or "wife" instead of "boyfriend" or "husband." Saying those things may subvert the expectations of others, and may trigger intolerance of others.

I suspect how you feel about the hypothetical circumstance of having a TG child is a lot like people felt about having a gay child 50 years ago.

 

[Greenman]

But we know you're simple and unable to deal with nuance so I am sure you're not the best equipped to deal with this issue.

Except there really isn't any nuance. You either have the fundamental physical aspects of a male or a female. Hormones won't dramatically change that. Those attributes give a male or former male a distinct advantage in women's sports. This is why doping and drugs are banned in sports, it's an unfair advantage.

You're welcome to pretend this is all based on some weird trans phobia if that makes you feel better, but I'm right, and sooner or later transsexuals will be banned from women's sports. There isn't any other solution.

 

[Bitek]

...so you're saying that the reason "he became a woman" was to compete in sports with an unfair advantage. Like, "choosing" to now be a woman was spiteful, petty decision on her part?

That's what your post is saying. it's one thing to look at the reality of how fair this might be, but half of you are arguing against this kind of competition from the basis that you see it as someone specifically choosing to "change genders" as a competitive advantage, and nothing more.

slow your roll.

That's what the team mates are suggesting. The bragging is pretty damning, no?

Honestly, how is it fair to them either way, and how can you guarantee the reason isn't cynical? Would you really put it past people not to do this eventually?

This should have been the expected outcome.

We can't be so naive to confuse biological sex versus gender as a social construct.

Did they have some epiphany and decide they identify as a woman? Great. Go do that, but not in that league.

They are still a strapping 20yo 6'3" male body competing physically against biological females. It's absurd. Put them in the class they belong.

If the current binary choices don't work, create a new one thats fair. Just dropping M2F in women's sports is stupid.


Hey I'm Mike Tyson. I took hormone pills, shaved my legs, and identify as a welterweight female, so now I can beat the shit out of women legally and professionally.

 

[pmv]

Everyone should agree to stop pretending that it matters who can swim or run a given distance faster than others can. Then all that effort and training could instead be put into something that's objectively useful and makes the world better in some way. As a bonus, the dilemma this thread is about would cease to be a problem.

 

[railer]

So she finished almost a minute slower than the world record but faster than this specific group of girls? She is not outperforming women in general?

So the fact that an absolutely average male swimmer isn't faster than the fastest women's swimmer in the world makes this seem ok to you? She is absolutely tremendously outperforming women in her immediate peer group. Biology is real.

 

[ch33zw1z]

U had me at dailymail

 

[MomentsofSanity]

So the fact that an absolutely average male swimmer isn't faster than the fastest women's swimmer in the world makes this seem ok to you? She is absolutely tremendously outperforming women in her immediate peer group. Biology is real.

You have reading comprehension issues? Maybe have someone with the ability to understand read it to you.

 

[HomerJS]

The 200 Yard free time that was swam by Thomas wouldn't even crack the top 100 for NCAA male swimmers for this event. However swimming as a woman the time of 1:41 is top in the nation.

Accepting this as true I don't understand why anyone wouldn't consider it a problem.

 

[MichaelMay]

I mean, except in extremely rare cases, genetics is not messy.

You either have XX or XY.

Not a lot of give and take on that one.

Hey, sportsball is great or whatever, but school should be for learnin' and teachers are already ridiculously underpaid and academics typically underfunded.

So, if schools want sportsball, students test and can then join into the XX or XY league, and look at that, I just solved the whole god damn problem/issue/outrage with this entirely created problem.

Next.

Apart from the variations there is AIS in various stages so it's millions of people.

It's going to come up and at that point it's easier to just say "male and female sports" because it's not ambiguous at all, if you are a biological female with XY chromosomes you compete with females.

I agree that it for the most part is silly and where I'm from sports is just gym class as far as the schools are concerned.

 

[brycejones]

Except there really isn't any nuance. You either have the fundamental physical aspects of a male or a female. Hormones won't dramatically change that. Those attributes give a male or former male a distinct advantage in women's sports. This is why doping and drugs are banned in sports, it's an unfair advantage.

You're welcome to pretend this is all based on some weird trans phobia if that makes you feel better, but I'm right, and sooner or later transsexuals will be banned from women's sports. There isn't any other solution.

And your post is bullshit. This conflict is already playing out in women's sports at the global level and it's women accusing other women of having an unfair advantage because of genetic differences causing some women to have greater amounts of testosterone allowing them to be stronger.

To be honest I don't think it should matter at all through high school sports. At the college level I guess some arguments could be made about negative effects. At an elate global competition level the matter is being given to the individual sport governing bodies to figure out how to deal with it and hopefully take advantage of actual research that has been done vs. the knee jerk reactions on display from people like you.

 

[MrSquished]

Accepting this as true I don't understand why anyone wouldn't consider it a problem.

Because one year ago that was his time as a man, and one year later that is his time as a woman. It's just not right. It seems quite self-evident. I have no issue with people wanting to transition - they should be protected under every law everybody else is, but they should not compete in sports one year as a man and the next as a woman.

 

[kitkat22]

Here's a thought. Transitioning is a process and just because some starts hormone therapy it takes time for the effects of hormones to mitigate the physical attributes. I would agree with 2-3 year waiting period before competing. (I am just throwing out a number).

 

[vi edit]

Here's a thought. Transitioning is a process and just because some starts hormone therapy it takes time for the effects of hormones to mitigate the physical attributes. I would agree with 2-3 year waiting period before competing. (I am just throwing out a number).

This is me being physiologically ignorant, but does hormone therapy significantly alter bone structure (not density, but structure)? Specifically males are born with a very different hip layout than women due to us not needing to birth children and that allows us to be much more efficient at some activities like running. Does the transition process alter that body structure?

There's just a lot of little things that add up significant advantages in some realms of athletic competition.

I'm also not opposed to the tearing down of athletic alters as they are now, but that's a larger argument at whole.

 

[kitkat22]

This is me being physiologically ignorant, but does hormone therapy significantly alter bone structure (not density, but structure)? Specifically males are born with a very different hip layout than women due to us not needing to birth children and that allows us to be much more efficient at some activities like running. Does the transition process alter that body structure?

There's just a lot of little things that add up significant advantages in some realms of athletic competition.

I'm also not opposed to the tearing down of athletic alters as they are now, but that's a larger argument at whole.

Before puberty there is actually very little difference between the sexes in terms of bone structure. It isn't til puberty does that change. There is an age when the end plates of the bones fuse and changes cannot be made. If I remember correctly it's about 20-ish. Before that time, cross hormone therapy can alter bone structure but what is there is there. For example, I started HRT at age 30. My bones will not change shape. If I started at 15-16 would be a different story.