(Updated) Yet another request for someone to talk me down... (E39 M5 related)

[alkemyst]

being you used the phrase 'a hoot' perhaps the 7 series is more your speed 🙂

 

[DarkThinker]

The back seat in the 3-Series is a joke. I bought the S70 after having owned a series of cars with tiny back seats (924S, 944, Mark VIII, Mustang) because I was sick and tired of having to apologise to everyone I gave a ride to. The 5-series has a back seat that can comfortably fit adults, the 3-series does not. The 3-series cars drive well and are a lot of fun (my friend's E46 330i was a hoot), but they're just too small if you plan to ever have normal-sized adults along in the back seat.

ZV

That's exactly why I opted for a spacious CTS, after driving a coupe for 6 long years I just had it I couldn't take it any longer. The only thing coupes have going for them is the little bit nicer looks and maybe a little less weight but that's usually as far as it goes.

Just came back from taking the family on a long yet comfortable trip, thank God I don't drive a coupe any more. I am done apologizing to people as well. It used to be that coupes used to cost significantly less, it used to be that a manual coupe was the best way to save money on a purchase when you didn't need the extra doors. But now a days sometimes it's the other way around for both options there is a premium to pay yet the benefits are never worth it in most cases.

being you used the phrase 'a hoot' perhaps the 7 series is more your speed 🙂

Now that you mentioned it, I have always had a secret craving for an E32 7-series. Even today, years later I still I stare at pictures of E32's. Just look at this awesomeness of design and powa!







Now Sir, that's what I call a BMW 7-series, when you see a V12 bad boy like that 750 in your rear view mirror, you just yield by instinct as resistance would be futile.

I even once spotted on Ebay a rare Manual E32, I spent the rest of the day thinking about how badass a manual 750i would be to drive around 🙂

Hell I should go and pick an el-cheapo E32 and burn the hell out of the tires and once they are done, sell it to a junkyard and then again buy another, rinse and repeat as necessary.

 

[exdeath]

when you see a V12 bad boy like that 750 in your rear view mirror, you just yield by instinct as resistance would be futile.

Tell that to the kid who tried at a merge 2 months ago. 😉 I felt bad after seeing him slow down and roll past me (I had come to my turn and had been sitting in the left turn lane a bit) and he just rubber necked in slow motion with his jaw dragging on the ground. That's when I noticed the V12 emblem on the fender and had to go look it up. Not a bad car at all, I can certainly understand why he was white as a ghost and was not expecting that outcome 🙂

You realize that V12s are chosen for their inherent smoothness, not power, as they typically put out the same power as the V8 version.

 

[DarkThinker]

Tell that to the kid who tried at a merge 2 months ago. 😉 I felt bad after seeing him slow down and roll past me (I had come to my turn) and he just rubber necked in slow motion with his jaw dragging on the ground. That's when I noticed the V12 emblem on the fender and had to go look it up. Not a bad car at all, I can certainly understand why he was white as a ghost and was not expecting that outcome 🙂

Ah come on hehe, don't tell me you are proud you were racing your Mustang against a 750i ! It's a freaking luxury cruiser with a bit of a sting. That's a 1.8 tons car, it's no racer, but still pretty mean.

Hell had I only seen the specs of the car I would say it was a tank 😛

 

[Zenmervolt]

Now Sir, that's what I call a BMW 7-series, when you see a V12 bad boy like that 750 in your rear view mirror, you just yield by instinct as resistance would be futile.

While I love the older V12 7-Series cars, they weren't all that fast. Even the more powerful E38 cars were mid-low 6-second cars and the E32 only managed the low to mid 7-second range. Smooth power though, very, very smooth.

ZV

 

[exdeath]

Ah come on hehe, don't tell me you are proud you were racing your Mustang against a 750i ! It's a freaking luxury cruiser with a bit of a sting. That's a 1.8 tons car, it's no racer, but still pretty mean.

Hell had I only seen the specs of the car I would say it was a tank 😛

Hey now, you're the one who said

when you see a V12 bad boy like that 750 in your rear view mirror, you just yield by instinct as resistance would be futile.

😉

I don't pick on people unless they start it. He chose his poison by revving, lurching, rolling, and punching it at the light, knowing full and well his lane ended in 1500 feet. Obviously the power aspect was important to him 😛 It's like people who brag about how great their car is "in the twisties" and all they do is go out drag racing people with less power at stop lights all night.

But yeah they seem like nice cars. Probably puts many other cars in their place, hence the twilight zone look on his face. I checked out the specs on that V12 and liked what I saw 🙂

My car is a Mustang as much as a M3 is just a shitty bottom barrel 3 series (ie: not by a long shot in both cases unless all you consider is the bare sheet metal and carpet). Most people learn that the hard way hehehe.

And 1.8 tons? 3600 lbs? That's what my car weighs and that's light by today's standards...

 

[alkemyst]

It used to be that coupes used to cost significantly less, it used to be that a manual coupe was the best way to save money on a purchase when you didn't need the extra doors. But now a days sometimes it's the other way around for both options there is a premium to pay yet the benefits are never worth it in most cases.

The fuck what?!? The deal is that coupes are usually where the performance line up in a brand lies. The reason you are seeing more 4 door performance cars is much a reflection of the economy and people not having weekend cars as much...plus having others living at home with their own cars creating a parking situation.

The two door concept was never really about economy except at the bottom level.

 

[alkemyst]

You realize that V12s are chosen for their inherent smoothness, not power, as they typically put out the same power as the V8 version.

That's where almost all laymen fail...they think cylinders = power.

It's really the displacement that decides most of the power limits...the more cylinders you can do it with the smoother the engine will run.

Also sound configurations give much nicer and poorer exhaust tones.

 

[Fenixgoon]

That's where almost all laymen fail...they think cylinders = power.

It's really the displacement that decides most of the power limits...the more cylinders you can do it with the smoother the engine will run.

Also sound configurations give much nicer and poorer exhaust tones.

cylinders can help with power - smaller, lighter cylinders let you rev higher, generally (hp = torque*rpm/5252)

after, all, that's the reason an F1 car can get 800hp out of a very small V8 🙂

 

[alkemyst]

cylinders can help with power - smaller, lighter cylinders let you rev higher, generally (hp = torque*rpm/5252)

after, all, that's the reason an F1 car can get 800hp out of a very small V8 🙂

what about the 4 cylinders before those? Turboed F1 1.5 liter hondas were over 1000HP.

 

[exdeath]

Speaking of $15k and M3s / M5s

http://tucson.craigslist.org/ctd/1636057512.html

Normal price for a lower mileage perfect condition 2003+ is around $25k. $10k difference should take care of any maintenance issues that arise, especially if you're a DIYer and know exactly what you are getting into and still don't care.

 

[exdeath]

cylinders can help with power - smaller, lighter cylinders let you rev higher, generally (hp = torque*rpm/5252)

after, all, that's the reason an F1 car can get 800hp out of a very small V8 🙂

Probably not using other configurations because:

1) 4 cylinders are extremely unbalanced and vibration prone in almost any configuration, esp as displacement increases beyond 2 liters. Though not sure why they wouldn't use a H6 or I6 (see below)

2) For a given optimal bore size (too big=flame propagation issues, too small = valve area reduction and shrouding), the same displacement with less cylinders requires more stroke, which is detrimental to RPM which is necessary to make power in F1 due to an imposed maximum displacement rule. You can pull 2 liters of the air through the head in 1 cycle, or 1 liter of air through the same head in two cycles at twice the RPM, it's the same amount of air in the same amount of time. Doubling the stroke would exceed the displacement rule, doubling the RPM will not.

It's probably that 8 cylinders yields the best bore/stroke ratio per cylinder given the 2.4L displacement goal (or is it just another rule that it has to be a V8?) If it was 3-4 liters, no doubt they would go to a V12 to keep the same ideal bore/stroke.

Many many factors to choosing a configuration for a particular purpose. Give an engineer infinite money and a set of rules and you can build anything you want, to perform however you want

 

[DarkThinker]

That's where almost all laymen fail...they think cylinders = power.

Ermm... no, how you use your displacement is what really affects the outcome, more cylinders = more potential power w.r.t displacement

If you have more displacement and you use it less often, you might as well use less displacement more often for the same output power. Resulting in a lighter engine and a less expensive one as well.

It's really the displacement that decides most of the power limits...the more cylinders you can do it with the smoother the engine will run.

Well, you can't rely on displacement much, case in point Corvette LS7 vs M5 S85:


Chevrolet LS7: Cylinders 8 : Displacement 7.0L : Power Output 505 BHP

BMW S85: Cylinders 10 : Displacement 5.0L : Power Output 507 BHP


It's obvious displacement was the least limiting factor, considering both engines are naturally aspirated.

Also sound configurations give much nicer and poorer exhaust tones.

If you want to tell me the S85 has a poor exhaust note I would say you have a poor sense of hearing. Just stop generalizing is all I ask of you 🙂

 

[exdeath]

S85 = tapped out for all it's worth from the factory. I mean the thing comes with tubular headers from the factory FFS, and it doesn't get less restrictive than separate induction systems, throttles, and airflow meters per bank, or even individual cylinders.

LS7 = power gains with bolt ons (has log style manifold for example) Z06 pushes 500 HP to the *WHEELS* with bolt on mods and a retune.

Engines like the S54 and S85 see next to nothing in gains without forced induction because the factory has already left no stone unturned.

There is no replacement for displacement holds true when observing and respecting the following conditions:

1) when all else is held equal
2) when the head is not the limiting factor

To spin the same point from the other side and not sound like I'm making excuses for the LS7, imagine if the S85 had 2 more liters of displacement to work with.

I know people don't like to compare stock to modded, but I insist. When a factory car is already *modded* to 100% from the factory it's not fair to compare it to car running at less than 100% of it's potential from the factory. What's the difference between modding it yourself or the manufacturer modding it for you and charging you more? Somewhere there is an absolute scale that comes into play. Yeah my little 281 with boost can spank the crap out of a 502 cubic inch muscle car. But forge that 502 and run 18 lbs boost and EFI on it so all else is held equal and it's not even a comparison.

Notice I didn't say anything about 4 valves per cylinder vs 2 valves per cylinder; if the head isn't the limiting factor per #2 above, it doesn't matter.

 

[DarkThinker]

S85 = tapped out for all it's worth from the factory. I mean the thing comes with tubular headers from the factory FFS.

LS7 = power gains with bolt ons (has log style manifold for example)

There is no replacement for displacement holds true when observing and respecting the following conditions:

1) when all else is held equal
2) when the head is not the limiting factor

To spin the same point from the other side and not sound like I'm making excuses for the LS7, imagine if the S85 had 2 more liters of displacement to work with.

Which proves my point, how you use your displacement is practically the real factor.

Either it's with better components, more cylinders, better alloys, supercharging, turbocharging ...you name it. But to put it like alkeymest did where displacement is THE indicator for power is very unrealistic.

 

[exdeath]

Which proves my point, how you use your displacement is practically the real factor.

Either it's with better components, more cylinders, better alloys, supercharging, turbocharging ...you name it. But to put it like alkeymest did where displacement is THE indicator for power is very unrealistic.

Not really. The real point here is that if both were built the same and running to the limit, with the same alloys, same boost, same octane, same you name it, there is nothing you are going to be able to do to "make the best use" out of 5 liters of displacement to match or best someone else who also knows how to use the most of THEIR displacement, which happens to be 2.0L more than yours.

The best you can hope for is that you are making more out of your 5 L than the average someone else is making out of their lazy 7 L and hope you don't run into someone very often who is making the most out of the 7 L as well as you are with your 5 L.

Case in point why is the M3 engine now a 4L V8? If what you say is true, why isn't the new V8 making 70+ more HP than the I6 while staying 3.2L?

Check this out (S65 4.0L V8 vs S54 3.2L I6 engines from the M3):

4.0L / 3.2L = 1.25, 25% increase in displacement
414 HP / 333 HP = 1.243 = 24.3% increase in power (lets say that the .7% difference is negligible frictional loss from +2 more cylinders)

Same materials, same engineering, same RPM potentials (both 8k), same HP/L, etc.

Forced induction doesn't even follow your rules, as you are essentially increasing the displacement of the engine instead of making use of what you have (14.7 psi = doubling the displacement). And there is nothing stopping you from running forced induction on the bigger engine as well.

 

[alkemyst]

Ermm... no, how you use your displacement is what really affects the outcome, more cylinders = more potential power w.r.t displacement

If you have more displacement and you use it less often, you might as well use less displacement more often for the same output power. Resulting in a lighter engine and a less expensive one as well.



Well, you can't rely on displacement much, case in point Corvette LS7 vs M5 S85:


Chevrolet LS7: Cylinders 8 : Displacement 7.0L : Power Output 505 BHP

BMW S85: Cylinders 10 : Displacement 5.0L : Power Output 507 BHP


It's obvious displacement was the least limiting factor, considering both engines are naturally aspirated.



If you want to tell me the S85 has a poor exhaust note I would say you have a poor sense of hearing. Just stop generalizing is all I ask of you 🙂

WTF? I don't think you even understand the argument...

First to your last point, there is no generalization I am doing. I also never mentioned any particular configurations. However, it is well known that certain cylinder configurations make for worse and better sounding exhaust tones. You are now playing fanboi.

Displacement = power /thread. Which was my point and not how many cylinders. However, you can make more power or less for certain tunes/power ranges/uses.

to trump your two engines the F1 Honda 1.5L made over 1000HP with turbocharging. It was a four cylinder.

I think you need to sit down and learn how an engine works (it's an air pump to give you a hint). Ultimately the more air you can pump, the more power you can make.

 

[DarkThinker]

WTF? I don't think you even understand the argument...

First to your last point, there is no generalization I am doing. I also never mentioned any particular configurations. However, it is well known that certain cylinder configurations make for worse and better sounding exhaust tones. You are now playing fanboi.

Tell me you need to be a fanboy to appreciate the note of the V10 in the M5 or the V12 in the 850csi. I never said V8 has a bad note, but just because you think V10 and V12 don't have a good note doesn't make it a fact, it's a personal opinion.

Displacement = power /thread.

Dude, if you want to go /thread on me, at least do it with a true statement.

Displacement = Work , Work = Energy. Energy is NOT Power! Understand the difference and then go /thread as much as you like..

Which was my point and not how many cylinders. However, you can make more power or less for certain tunes/power ranges/uses.
to trump your two engines the F1 Honda 1.5L made over 1000HP with turbocharging. It was a four cylinder.

I am talking about the engines themselves, naturally aspirated. I was clear with my LS7 - S85 comparison both naturally aspirated engines stock, turbos and SC are add-ons not engine components.

I think you need to sit down and learn how an engine works (it's an air pump to give you a hint). Ultimately the more air you can pump, the more power you can make.

I think you need to sit down and learn how to share your opinion with others like an adult for a change.

 

[exdeath]

Personally not a fan of V10s. They don't have the soul leeching burble of a cross plane V8, but they don't have the orgasmic chorus of a V12 either, so they have... nothing really.

Not sure what physics you are using up there...

Air + fuel contains energy to make power; more displacement = more air and fuel in the engine being ignited = more energy being release = more work done in a shorter time = more power. All that matters in the end is air/fuel mass burned per unit time. The only caveat is that the head flows enough to allow the displacement to be utilized, and that's going to be the same whether it's 4L at 16,000 RPM or 8L at 8,000 RPM.

If you made that 8L engine a 12, 16, 20, 24, whatever cylinder engine such that it had the same stroke and bore as that 4L engine so it could rev to 16,000 RPM too, it would have twice the potential power as the 4L engine.

 

[Aimster]

I posted my 2001 BMW X5 on craigslist for cheap and was flooded with people wanting to buy it.

I mean seriously why else would I be selling it? I'm sick and tired of always fixing it. I even said that in the AD but yet people were dying to get it.

Nobody should buy a 10 year old car if it is meant to be a daily driver. Unless they absolutely must, stick with a honda or toyota. Not no BMW.

If you get the M5 I receommend you have 5k savedup for it just in case and another car.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Tell me you need to be a fanboy to appreciate the note of the V10 in the M5 or the V12 in the 850csi. I never said V8 has a bad note, but just because you think V10 and V12 don't have a good note doesn't make it a fact, it's a personal opinion.





Dude, if you want to go /thread on me, at least do it with a true statement.

Displacement = Work , Work = Energy. Energy is NOT Power! Understand the difference and then go /thread as much as you like..



I am talking about the engines themselves, naturally aspirated. I was clear with my LS7 - S85 comparison both naturally aspirated engines stock, turbos and SC are add-ons not engine components.




I think you need to sit down and learn how to share your opinion with others like an adult for a change.

keep in mind the LS7 is physically smaller, lighter, and has more torque than the S85. power output is not the only important factor when designing an engine

 

[Arkaign]

Let us all please un-derail ZV's epic thread. I'm looking forward to the next update 🙂

 

[overst33r]

Personally not a fan of V10s. They don't have the soul leeching burble of a cross plane V8, but they don't have the orgasmic chorus of a V12 either, so they have... nothing really.

I have yet to find a V12 that makes me 😱 like the V10 in the Carrera GT

Also, a viper with an exhaust is 😱 as well.

 

[alkemyst]

Tell me you need to be a fanboy to appreciate the note of the V10 in the M5 or the V12 in the 850csi. I never said V8 has a bad note, but just because you think V10 and V12 don't have a good note doesn't make it a fact, it's a personal opinion.

I never stated V8 was better or V10/12 was bad. WTF are you talking about.

It's known certain configs of cylinders have really good sounding tones and others do not.

Dude, if you want to go /thread on me, at least do it with a true statement.

Displacement = Work , Work = Energy. Energy is NOT Power! Understand the difference and then go /thread as much as you like..

Again you don't understand your own argument because you are comparing with certain models not the extremes. Ultimately displacement = the maximum power potential so again /thread.

You can go say that 'hey here is a 5.9L V8 that only makes 180HP and a 3.4L V6 over here makes 250hp....V6 is definitely better or 3.4L is definitely better'...you'd be wrong overall. You don't see this though.

I am talking about the engines themselves, naturally aspirated. I was clear with my LS7 - S85 comparison both naturally aspirated engines stock, turbos and SC are add-ons not engine components.

I think you need to sit down and learn how to share your opinion with others like an adult for a change.

I am but like a child you are not hearing and seeing reality because you think BMW is better than anything apparently.

You used two engines as an example...they do not show the maximum potential in normally aspirated form. In the case of the LS7 the engineers are getting more work done with less, the S85 everything is tweaked more. I'd be willing to bet the pricing of replacing the engines will show that too.

Take them back to the machine shop and ask them to build them to maximum potential, the greater displacement will win.

I shit you not.

 

[Koing]

The back seat in the 3-Series is a joke. I bought the S70 after having owned a series of cars with tiny back seats (924S, 944, Mark VIII, Mustang) because I was sick and tired of having to apologise to everyone I gave a ride to. The 5-series has a back seat that can comfortably fit adults, the 3-series does not. The 3-series cars drive well and are a lot of fun (my friend's E46 330i was a hoot), but they're just too small if you plan to ever have normal-sized adults along in the back seat.

ZV

US sized adults 😛

I have 2 adults in the back and they are fine. Sure it's not as elegant to get in with 2 doors but imo it looks much better then the 4 door versions. But you sacrifice a lot of usability for it. But f0ck'em. I'm driving it day in day out and it isn't a taxi service.

Adjust your seat and steering wheel accordingly and the back passengers have more room. The steering wheel I can push further towards the dash on the E46 M3.

Koing