Universal health Care (or really insurance)

[Pneumothorax]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

And how are they getting these free treatments? How is it any different than now? People can already come across for free emergency treatment, and yet they aren't overloading the system.

Are you saying that you think illegal immigrants are going to cross the border for a free mammogram or something? Why on earth do you think our system would work like that? Face it, the ability of people to come here for free treatment already exists, and it hasn't resulted in the dire consequences you claim it would. You probably didn't know just how little of our yearly medical expenditures are consumed by illegal immigrants, but now that you know, just admit you were wrong.

There's a difference between free EMERGENCY treatment vs. free anything else. Let's see... Free gastric bypass surgery, free chronic back pain surgery, free varicose vein treatment (normally cosmetic, but "El Doctor, my varicose veins "hurt"), free "pain meds",free acne treatment, free chemotherapy and subsequent surgery, free heart and liver transplants, and the list goes on... I'm pretty sure if you don't have the moolah in most latin american countries and need an organ transplant, you're screwed. But a free liver is available after getting a "Coyote" to help you cross... Knowing our current justice system, we'll try to limit things such as this, but as in my state of california you cannot differentiate between an illegal vs. legal alien in an ER, so once those other things become a "right" for citizens, it will also be a "right" for illegals.

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: quest55720

2% of 2 trillion dollars is a shit load of money. That is the problem with people today it is only such such a percent. That and that number will skyrocket once UHC is out there and they can get free expensive treatment. You are just begging millions of seriously sick people crossing the boarder for billions in free treatments.

Any UHC should be contingent on securing the boarder and denying anything but emergency to illegals. Then once they get that send them back to were they came from.

UHC will not work in this country the goverment can't do anything right. They have screwed up everything they have been in charge of.

And how are they getting these free treatments? How is it any different than now? People can already come across for free emergency treatment, and yet they aren't overloading the system.

Are you saying that you think illegal immigrants are going to cross the border for a free mammogram or something? Why on earth do you think our system would work like that? Face it, the ability of people to come here for free treatment already exists, and it hasn't resulted in the dire consequences you claim it would. You probably didn't know just how little of our yearly medical expenditures are consumed by illegal immigrants, but now that you know, just admit you were wrong.

The democrats will make sure in any UHC bill that treatment can't be denied because of citizenship status. So that person in south America with cancer can cross the boarder get a few million in free treatment on the backs of the tax payers. The democrats have shown they will pander to illegals in hopes of getting them amnesty and a future vote.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I don't know anymore. I do know this, though. If you're worried about your health, the best thing to do is actually to get healthy and the power has always, for most people, resided squarely in their hands. Healthful living is the ticket. Eat properly, workout, don't be an alcoholic, don't be a dumbass. Prevention trumps cure for most people at most points in their lives.

So eating healthy and exercising will get rid of my allergies, back and neck problems, and stomach problems that make me uninsurable or my wife's PCOS which makes her uninsurable?

The ignorance in such absurdity is ASTOUNDING!

Thank you for taking the reading comprehension test. Unfortunately your grade is an F. You can retake it as many times as you like, however!

Your ignorance is astounding.

F for "don't know anymore" and "eat healthy!"

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Amazing that every other major industrialized country on the planet can manage to pull off UHC, but you think that the most powerful nation in the history of the planet can't do it.

And just look at the "quality" of care one gets in those nations from the "free" service...it is so great that people still have to buy premire healthcare to get anything done....

I hope you get sick and then get denied coverage so insurance companies can prop up their earnings. People seem to need to be shown how it affects them before they grow a brain.

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Amazing that every other major industrialized country on the planet can manage to pull off UHC, but you think that the most powerful nation in the history of the planet can't do it.

And just look at the "quality" of care one gets in those nations from the "free" service...it is so great that people still have to buy premire healthcare to get anything done....

I hope you get sick and then get denied coverage so insurance companies can prop up their earnings. People seem to need to be shown how it affects them before they grow a brain.

Ya because governments never deny coverage in UHC countries. There will have to be plenty of rationing of care if we are to cover everyone in this country. Unless you want to crush the middle class and above by raising their taxes by double digits and magically come up with a shit load more health care professionals.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
I hope you get sick and then get denied coverage so insurance companies can prop up their earnings. People seem to need to be shown how it affects them before they grow a brain.

Hmm, that would be a good one...hasn't happened yet, then again I will either pay for coverage or have it provided by my or my wife's company....

But again, nice deflection....

If socialized health care is so wonderful why do people in other nations feel the need to go to better establishments? why are there so many articles about people in Canada comming here for care??

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: quest55720

Ya because governments never deny coverage in UHC countries. There will have to be plenty of rationing of care if we are to cover everyone in this country. Unless you want to crush the middle class and above by raising their taxes by double digits and magically come up with a shit load more health care professionals.

This will only hurt the middle class more, those truly in the elite will always find ways to shelter money...and yes to think that care won't be denied under UHC is a joke, and even if it isn't the care one gets will be the equivalent to buying clothes at walmart or building 19....your going to get bottom of the barrel.

 

[Slew Foot]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: quest55720

Ya because governments never deny coverage in UHC countries. There will have to be plenty of rationing of care if we are to cover everyone in this country. Unless you want to crush the middle class and above by raising their taxes by double digits and magically come up with a shit load more health care professionals.

This will only hurt the middle class more, those truly in the elite will always find ways to shelter money...and yes to think that care won't be denied under UHC is a joke, and even if it isn't the care one gets will be the equivalent to buying clothes at walmart or building 19....your going to get bottom of the barrel.

According to the half of my Anesthesia department that's from Europe/Australia, trying to get health care after the age of 50 in those countries is near immposible.

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: Slew Foot

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: quest55720

Ya because governments never deny coverage in UHC countries. There will have to be plenty of rationing of care if we are to cover everyone in this country. Unless you want to crush the middle class and above by raising their taxes by double digits and magically come up with a shit load more health care professionals.

This will only hurt the middle class more, those truly in the elite will always find ways to shelter money...and yes to think that care won't be denied under UHC is a joke, and even if it isn't the care one gets will be the equivalent to buying clothes at walmart or building 19....your going to get bottom of the barrel.

According to the half of my Anesthesia department that's from Europe/Australia, trying to get health care after the age of 50 in those countries is near immposible.

That can't be true you can not be denied treatment under UHC according to those advocate for it.

It makes sense you do need to ration when you care for everyone. I guess the logic is the money is best spent on young people.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Amazing that every other major industrialized country on the planet can manage to pull off UHC, but you think that the most powerful nation in the history of the planet can't do it.

And just look at the "quality" of care one gets in those nations from the "free" service...it is so great that people still have to buy premire healthcare to get anything done....

Yeap, such poor quality that large numbers of these nations with similar demographics have significantly superior health outcomes to the US despite spending small fractions of what we do, as has been shown here over and over and over again. Someday you will face the simple reality that their systems are far superior to ours.

Well, thats not really fair eskimo. Many countries who have socialized medicine also have healthier lifestyles in general. That plays a HUGE role. You certainly cant give all the credit to medicine.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Zebo
We need to copy to the tee countries where it works e.g. Taiwan

But I have no doubt Americans will screw it up royally due to way our political system is.

They will throw you a bone but make no mistake it will end in a cluster fuck of high expense and low treatment and the top 1% won't be able to carry their checks to the bank, need a fork lift.

No, what we really need is for the public to feed themselves Taiwan style instead of USA style.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
I hope you get sick and then get denied coverage so insurance companies can prop up their earnings. People seem to need to be shown how it affects them before they grow a brain.

Hmm, that would be a good one...hasn't happened yet, then again I will either pay for coverage or have it provided by my or my wife's company....

But again, nice deflection....

If socialized health care is so wonderful why do people in other nations feel the need to go to better establishments? why are there so many articles about people in Canada comming here for care??

Many people CANNOT GET INSURED , PERIOD! My wife, a 26 year old, 5'8, 130 pound girl in perfect health, was diagnosed with PCOS and then got denied insurance by EVERY INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE STATE.

You CANNOT get covered for pre-existing conditions unless you work for specific companies/government.

Why do people come here from Canada? Uhhh, let's use our little brain here... the ultra rich can come here and see the "top" doctors and get the best procedures because money isn't an issue. For 99.999999999% of the rest of the population, they can actually get covered for everything, including pre-existing conditions for a measily 6% tax(I pay 17% of my income just for catastrophic coverage because I can't get regular coverage either).

Seriously, use your brain for once instead of repeating talking points. How about living in reality and observing people around us BESIDES just ourselves!?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Amazing that every other major industrialized country on the planet can manage to pull off UHC, but you think that the most powerful nation in the history of the planet can't do it.

And just look at the "quality" of care one gets in those nations from the "free" service...it is so great that people still have to buy premire healthcare to get anything done....

Yeap, such poor quality that large numbers of these nations with similar demographics have significantly superior health outcomes to the US despite spending small fractions of what we do, as has been shown here over and over and over again. Someday you will face the simple reality that their systems are far superior to ours.

Well, thats not really fair eskimo. Many countries who have socialized medicine also have healthier lifestyles in general. That plays a HUGE role. You certainly cant give all the credit to medicine.

Are you talking about less obesity, smoking, etc? If you are, a study recently came out that indicates those people are actually CHEAPER to treat in terms of lifetime cost than healthier people. Or did you mean something else? Can you provide evidence that a US citizen requires more health care than a European to stay alive the same amount of time?

I think it's pretty clear at this point that the opposition to UHC is mostly ideological in nature.

 

[soccerballtux]

No it won't. Take a look at the VA hospitals if you to see what it's going to be like.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
No it won't. Take a look at the VA hospitals if you to see what it's going to be like.

I recently had to have several issues taken care of at the Balboa VA hospital. Service and quality of care was excellent.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Amazing that every other major industrialized country on the planet can manage to pull off UHC, but you think that the most powerful nation in the history of the planet can't do it.

And just look at the "quality" of care one gets in those nations from the "free" service...it is so great that people still have to buy premire healthcare to get anything done....

Yeap, such poor quality that large numbers of these nations with similar demographics have significantly superior health outcomes to the US despite spending small fractions of what we do, as has been shown here over and over and over again. Someday you will face the simple reality that their systems are far superior to ours.

Well, thats not really fair eskimo. Many countries who have socialized medicine also have healthier lifestyles in general. That plays a HUGE role. You certainly cant give all the credit to medicine.

Are you talking about less obesity, smoking, etc? If you are, a study recently came out that indicates those people are actually CHEAPER to treat in terms of lifetime cost than healthier people. Or did you mean something else? Can you provide evidence that a US citizen requires more health care than a European to stay alive the same amount of time?

I think it's pretty clear at this point that the opposition to UHC is mostly ideological in nature.

Yes, I am. mThe USA has the most obesity and least exercised population on the planet. I would like to see that study you mentioned. I googled and a quick search didnt find anything.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Yes, I am. mThe USA has the most obesity and least exercised population on the planet. I would like to see that study you mentioned. I googled and a quick search didnt find anything.

Here you go.

Long story short, having a healthier population is good, it just doesn't save us any money on health care.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Yes, I am. mThe USA has the most obesity and least exercised population on the planet. I would like to see that study you mentioned. I googled and a quick search didnt find anything.

Here you go.

Long story short, having a healthier population is good, it just doesn't save us any money on health care.

Interesting read. Although I would be interested in REAL costs, not simulated models.

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Yes, I am. mThe USA has the most obesity and least exercised population on the planet. I would like to see that study you mentioned. I googled and a quick search didnt find anything.

Here you go.

Long story short, having a healthier population is good, it just doesn't save us any money on health care.

Interesting read. Although I would be interested in REAL costs, not simulated models.

It is a bunch of crap. Use common sense more and more insurance companies are paying for bariatric procedures. You think they are doing this out of the kindness of their hearts? Hell no they do it to save money in the long run. There was a great episode of the biggest loser where they showed how many meds some of the contestants were on. Once they lost weight they were able to get off those meds. As we all know meds these days are far from cheap. A stay at a cardiac unit is far from cheap after a heart attack caused by obesity. Then all the follow care it adds up pretty damn fast. Anyone who argues that fat people and smokers are cheaper long term needs help. My mother was a smoker and died early but racked up well over a million dollars in medical expenses fighting lung cancer for a few years.

Common sense people please not some bullshit simulation.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Many people CANNOT GET INSURED , PERIOD! My wife, a 26 year old, 5'8, 130 pound girl in perfect health, was diagnosed with PCOS and then got denied insurance by EVERY INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE STATE.

You CANNOT get covered for pre-existing conditions unless you work for specific companies/government.

Why do people come here from Canada? Uhhh, let's use our little brain here... the ultra rich can come here and see the "top" doctors and get the best procedures because money isn't an issue. For 99.999999999% of the rest of the population, they can actually get covered for everything, including pre-existing conditions for a measily 6% tax(I pay 17% of my income just for catastrophic coverage because I can't get regular coverage either).

Seriously, use your brain for once instead of repeating talking points. How about living in reality and observing people around us BESIDES just ourselves!?

How is this different from countries with socialized plans that simply don't treat people that are too old or "not worth it"

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Yeap, such poor quality that large numbers of these nations with similar demographics have significantly superior health outcomes to the US despite spending small fractions of what we do, as has been shown here over and over and over again. Someday you will face the simple reality that their systems are far superior to ours.

If coverage is so wonderful there then why do people come here instead of paying for premire covererage in their own country?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Yeap, such poor quality that large numbers of these nations with similar demographics have significantly superior health outcomes to the US despite spending small fractions of what we do, as has been shown here over and over and over again. Someday you will face the simple reality that their systems are far superior to ours.

If coverage is so wonderful there then why do people come here instead of paying for premire covererage in their own country?

Because if you can afford it the US has the best health care system in the world. Of course the operative phrase is 'if you can afford it'. Our system's failure is not the maximum possible quality of care.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
No it won't. Take a look at the VA hospitals if you to see what it's going to be like.

I recently had to have several issues taken care of at the Balboa VA hospital. Service and quality of care was excellent.

Used to hear lots a good things about that VA.

 

[Slew Foot]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
No it won't. Take a look at the VA hospitals if you to see what it's going to be like.

I recently had to have several issues taken care of at the Balboa VA hospital. Service and quality of care was excellent.

Used to hear lots a good things about that VA.

VAs are vastly different in care. San Francisco is pretty good, though one day of my friends patients died overnight and the nurse didnt figure it out until the morning.

The VA in Long Beach had flies in the patient rooms since the food trays hadnt been collected for a few days, it looked like a third world hellhole.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Many people CANNOT GET INSURED , PERIOD! My wife, a 26 year old, 5'8, 130 pound girl in perfect health, was diagnosed with PCOS and then got denied insurance by EVERY INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE STATE.

You CANNOT get covered for pre-existing conditions unless you work for specific companies/government.

Why do people come here from Canada? Uhhh, let's use our little brain here... the ultra rich can come here and see the "top" doctors and get the best procedures because money isn't an issue. For 99.999999999% of the rest of the population, they can actually get covered for everything, including pre-existing conditions for a measily 6% tax(I pay 17% of my income just for catastrophic coverage because I can't get regular coverage either).

Seriously, use your brain for once instead of repeating talking points. How about living in reality and observing people around us BESIDES just ourselves!?

How is this different from countries with socialized plans that simply don't treat people that are too old or "not worth it"

I'm not old and neither is my wife. We can't get insurance, period. That is the difference. We'd be covered in all socialized countries.

Stop being disingenuous.