Universal health Care (or really insurance)

[bozack]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Why people view the cost of UHC as some additional tax on top of what they are already paying is beyond me. You either pay for it in a lower salary as you do now, or you pay for it in a tax. The costs of health care are everywhere around you, you just don't notice.

This is funny...so you really think should UHC go into effect in the US that companies will start raising salary rates for employees...please. The increased taxes will just be another slap in the face to the middle and upper middle whose companies already give them benefits.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Because if you can afford it the US has the best health care system in the world. Of course the operative phrase is 'if you can afford it'. Our system's failure is not the maximum possible quality of care.

Take away the incentive for the "best" to participate and sure enough you will lose the talent...

Speaking for myself, I would rather pay for top quality than get substandard service for free...

And for those who say that the people motivated by money shouldn't be practicing medicine I would counter with A. while noble it isn't reality..and 2. good med school is expensive and people dedicate alot, thus they are worth it.

My question, when and if this goes through, and providing it is a true UHC, not forced payment like MA....where will people go when all of the good doctors leave the US?

Probably the same place they go in every other country with UHC. Your arguments aren't really based on much, they are just ideological pronouncements and a search to justify a decision you've already made.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Drug costs here are astronomical, and it's hard to say significant savings couldn't be had when the companies spend more on marketing than they do on R+D.

Which country do you think again is a leader in drug discovery and development??

Would I love to see these companies invest more in R&D than they do marketing? sure...but the reality is that given the current climate towards big pharma, and the fact that the likelihood of a blockbuster is virtually nil, and that they all have nothing in their pipelines they have to go with the sure bet...heck Merck just bought Schering, what does that tell you about the industry? R&D is a big gamble and a money pit that rarely pays off...start propping up countries like india and their generic industry and more americans will be out of work and we will fall even further behind in the high tech segment. The good is that this will hurt places like MA and CA since they are heavy with biotech.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Probably the same place they go in every other country with UHC. Your arguments aren't really based on much, they are just ideological pronouncements and a search to justify a decision you've already made.

Pot meet kettle?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Probably the same place they go in every other country with UHC. Your arguments aren't really based on much, they are just ideological pronouncements and a search to justify a decision you've already made.

Pot meet kettle?

Nope. I'm the one that says UHC can work here based on the evidence surrounding us. You say it can't work based on vague pronouncements.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: mooseracing
If you want UHC you can pay to cover other people, I think I already pay enough taxes, for welfare, for housing and company bailouts, etc that I don't need another.

I work my ass off, I pay for my insurance because it is a privelage. Why does everything have to be handouts in this country?

**glances around... goes for a walk around the building*** Yup, I'm paying for other people's insurance already as you can't opt out of health insurance at my employer unless you are covered by a spouse's policy. We all pay into a group plan.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: mooseracing
If you want UHC you can pay to cover other people, I think I already pay enough taxes, for welfare, for housing and company bailouts, etc that I don't need another.

I work my ass off, I pay for my insurance because it is a privelage. Why does everything have to be handouts in this country?

What's funny is that you don't seem to realize you already ARE paying to cover other people, just in the least efficient way possible.

Still a hell of a lot cheaper for me than a new double digit tax to pay for all this. A new double digit tax will kill what is left of the middle class in this country. UHC and its double digit tax would certainly bankrupt me I can not afford it.

Figure out what you and your employer pay for your health insurance coverage and figure it as a percentage of your income. That would go away, to be replaced by a tax. Would you come out ahead?

Personally, I pay 17% of my income for health insurance. So if the tax is less than that, I come out ahead immediately. If I get laid off, I won't pay much in health insurance taxes whereas COBRA would be unaffordable.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Why people view the cost of UHC as some additional tax on top of what they are already paying is beyond me. You either pay for it in a lower salary as you do now, or you pay for it in a tax. The costs of health care are everywhere around you, you just don't notice.

This is funny...so you really think should UHC go into effect in the US that companies will start raising salary rates for employees...please. The increased taxes will just be another slap in the face to the middle and upper middle whose companies already give them benefits.

So let me get this straight, if we lower business taxes and such, we'll see businesses lower prices of goods and increase salaries because they won't have that tax burden, but if we remove the burden that some businesses provide (health insurance), pay won't increase or prices of goods won't decrease? How does that make sense?

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I don't know anymore. I do know this, though. If you're worried about your health, the best thing to do is actually to get healthy and the power has always, for most people, resided squarely in their hands. Healthful living is the ticket. Eat properly, workout, don't be an alcoholic, don't be a dumbass. Prevention trumps cure for most people at most points in their lives.

So eating healthy and exercising will get rid of my allergies, back and neck problems, and stomach problems that make me uninsurable or my wife's PCOS which makes her uninsurable?

The ignorance in such absurdity is ASTOUNDING!

Thank you for taking the reading comprehension test. Unfortunately your grade is an F. You can retake it as many times as you like, however!

No, you fail. You insist that health is primarily in the hands of individuals. Well, people can sometimes be healthIER, but that's not the same thing as being healthy. Many, many medical conditions are not within our control. Genetics and just plain luck plays a major role in health. My cousin got terminal colon cancer at 38. A close friend who jogged six days a week for 25 years, ate healthy, and didn't have any bad habits got cardiomyopathy at 42 and was dead at 45. I know plenty of smokers who are still alive at 85, and know a couple of lifelong non-smokers who got lung cancer and were dead before 60. I know a 40-year-old who has terrible arthritis and can barely get around; I know a woman whose allergies are so debilitating she can't work. I know a woman who got early-onset Alzheimers at 58. I myself eat right, exercise, and don't have any bad habits, yet I need medication to control my blood pressure and cholesterol.

According to you, all of these medical conditions exist because we're not living healthy. Well, mr expert, please tell me what my friend Andy (the 42-year-old who got cardiomyopathy) should have done to prevent his disease, when even to doctors didn't understand what the cause of the condition was? Please tell me what Sofia (the 58-year-old with Alzheimers) could have done to prevent it, when no one in medicine claims to understand the causes of Alzheimers. Please tell me how to lower my cholesterol and blood pressure "naturally", when I eat no salt, work out almost every day, eat at 15%-fat diet, have a BMI of 22, eat lots of fiber, fruits, vegetables, and complex carbohydrates, and don't smoke or drink.

Come on, expert, tell me and these other people how to all live to 100 in perfect health.

The blame game is so easy when you're an ignoramus.

 

[DefDC]

I guess I'll never understand why some Americans can believe UHC is a bad thing, even if it moderately raises taxes. Do they really think we're acting like a first world country when we don't even care if our citizens are healthy? I have a friend who was born with bad kidneys. He worked until he was about 35 and too unhealthy to work any further. He's NEVER been able to get insurance due to pre-existing conditions. He wasn't able to be covered by medicare until his condition deteriorated until he was on dialysis. Oddly enough, if was able to get treatment, he wouldn't need dialysis, he would have gotten healthier. He's had millions of dollars worth of surgeries, all on our dime. He'd like nothing more than to be able to work.

Since some people are afraid of being inconvenienced, or they MIGHT have to suffer a slight tax bump, they are happy to condemn fellow Americans to death. Many of them, like my friend, a slow lingering death.

It's just disgusting.

 

[evident]

Originally posted by: bamacre


The more the gov't does, the more incentive people have to not work. If they can collect welfare, get free health care, free food (stamps), and eventually free housing, then who needs a job?

But don't alot of developed euro countries have UHC though? i dont think everyone will stop working anymore than those who are already lazy anyways.

 

[evident]

i would just like to share a story.... last year around this time my mom got laid off. about a month later she had a ruptured brain aneurysm and had to be in surgery for 5-6 hours. she then needed 1 month of inpatient therapy and then 2 more months of outpatient therapy then multiple checks and cat scans until now. miraculously she fully recovered.

if she was widowed, we would have had to file bankruptcy to cover her ~$1M medical costs. she would have lost everything that she worked for for the last 30 years after immigrating to this country w/ nothing.

to those who oppose UHC, how do you deal with a situation like my mom had- that is , a undiagnosable (unless you are a hypochondriac and get a brain CT scan every month, which would costs $40k per visit) sudden and expensive procedure that happened right after you become uninsured through no fault of your own? thank god my dad put her on his health plan as soon as she got laid off.

i've posted my story before and the only response i got was "she shouldn't of gotten sick" :roll: how do you not get sick from something you can't control?

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: mooseracing
If you want UHC you can pay to cover other people, I think I already pay enough taxes, for welfare, for housing and company bailouts, etc that I don't need another.

I work my ass off, I pay for my insurance because it is a privelage. Why does everything have to be handouts in this country?

Yeah! I don't want my tax money paying for things I might never or rarely use! Nobody would support that!

That's why, of course, if your house catches fire, the firemen who put it out send you a bill. And if you are attacked and mugged in the parking lot, the police need a copayment before they start an investigation. And my kids bring home a monthly bill from public school. And when levies break and cause floods, FEMA and the National Guard all wait until your check clears before they provide clean water and evacuations. :thumbsup:

If you can't see how basic medical care is not only a basic right in any non-third world country, but a benefit to the Nation as a whole - just like a free basic education, police protection and disaster aid - then you're probably just talking out of your ass.

Handouts? Are you dense? News Flash - tax money is *your* money. Do you think that if you get a major illness during the first year of coverage under your "paid insurance," that the company is "giving you a handout" when they pay those medical expenses?

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: evident
i would just like to share a story.... last year around this time my mom got laid off. about a month later she had a ruptured brain aneurysm and had to be in surgery for 5-6 hours. she then needed 1 month of inpatient therapy and then 2 more months of outpatient therapy then multiple checks and cat scans until now. miraculously she fully recovered.

if she was widowed, we would have had to file bankruptcy to cover her ~$1M medical costs. she would have lost everything that she worked for for the last 30 years after immigrating to this country w/ nothing.

to those who oppose UHC, how do you deal with a situation like my mom had- that is , a undiagnosable (unless you are a hypochondriac and get a brain CT scan every month, which would costs $40k per visit) sudden and expensive procedure that happened right after you become uninsured through no fault of your own? thank god my dad put her on his health plan as soon as she got laid off.

i've posted my story before and the only response i got was "she shouldn't of gotten sick" :roll: how do you not get sick from something you can't control?

So your answer is to bankrupt someone else to pay for her medical bills. A double digit tax hike right now would bankrupt me. So basically me and millions of other people would be paying a hell of a lot more for a hell of a lot less coverage.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

I'm not referring to Medicaid in any way. (and interestingly enough Medicare and Medicaid are vastly more efficient than the private sector)

that's because the overhead cost for a broken leg and a heart transplant are of the same order of magnitude, but the cost of the heart transplant is orders of magnitude higher than the broken leg. of course on a percentage basis the broken leg is going to have a higher overhead cost, which would be 'less efficient' using a ridiculous rubric. medicare covers a lot of ridiculously expensive illnesses and surgeries, so a much lower percentage goes to paper pushing.

 

[DefDC]

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: evident
i would just like to share a story.... last year around this time my mom got laid off. about a month later she had a ruptured brain aneurysm and had to be in surgery for 5-6 hours. she then needed 1 month of inpatient therapy and then 2 more months of outpatient therapy then multiple checks and cat scans until now. miraculously she fully recovered.

if she was widowed, we would have had to file bankruptcy to cover her ~$1M medical costs. she would have lost everything that she worked for for the last 30 years after immigrating to this country w/ nothing.

to those who oppose UHC, how do you deal with a situation like my mom had- that is , a undiagnosable (unless you are a hypochondriac and get a brain CT scan every month, which would costs $40k per visit) sudden and expensive procedure that happened right after you become uninsured through no fault of your own? thank god my dad put her on his health plan as soon as she got laid off.

i've posted my story before and the only response i got was "she shouldn't of gotten sick" :roll: how do you not get sick from something you can't control?

So your answer is to bankrupt someone else to pay for her medical bills. A double digit tax hike right now would bankrupt me. So basically me and millions of other people would be paying a hell of a lot more for a hell of a lot less coverage.

And you know for a fact that you'll receive a double digit tax hike? You have no faith in the "Can do" spirit of America? When have American let themselves be resigned to live in a cesspit?

A healthy America is better for you. Healthy, employable Americans buy products, which creates jobs.

Leaving the system the way is HORRIBLY inefficient (possibly more expensive than UHC) and leaves Americans sick and dying. Socialism is, by far, the least of my worries about the direction the country is turning.

Let's let the rich have all the money, remove all gun laws, and obliterate all the unions. Let's live in small cabals ruled by local warlords like the Somalis. Apparently the Republican dream. Jesus, what's wrong with people?

 

[fleshconsumed]

Originally posted by: quest55720
So your answer is to bankrupt someone else to pay for her medical bills. A double digit tax hike right now would bankrupt me. So basically me and millions of other people would be paying a hell of a lot more for a hell of a lot less coverage.

It has been covered before, refer to SammyJr post above. Most of the plans provided by employer are subsidized. This is a form of business taxation because if business wants to attract quality workers it has to provide subsidized health insurance. In UHC scenario you are taxing individuals more, but taxing businesses less. There will a rough couple of years during transition, but in the end it will work itself out through higher salaries which will offset higher taxes. In the end all that matters is how much are you getting for your money, doesn't matter if it's taxed through employer or employee, and US is woefully behind in this respect compared to UHC in Europe.

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: DefDC

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: evident
i would just like to share a story.... last year around this time my mom got laid off. about a month later she had a ruptured brain aneurysm and had to be in surgery for 5-6 hours. she then needed 1 month of inpatient therapy and then 2 more months of outpatient therapy then multiple checks and cat scans until now. miraculously she fully recovered.

if she was widowed, we would have had to file bankruptcy to cover her ~$1M medical costs. she would have lost everything that she worked for for the last 30 years after immigrating to this country w/ nothing.

to those who oppose UHC, how do you deal with a situation like my mom had- that is , a undiagnosable (unless you are a hypochondriac and get a brain CT scan every month, which would costs $40k per visit) sudden and expensive procedure that happened right after you become uninsured through no fault of your own? thank god my dad put her on his health plan as soon as she got laid off.

i've posted my story before and the only response i got was "she shouldn't of gotten sick" :roll: how do you not get sick from something you can't control?

So your answer is to bankrupt someone else to pay for her medical bills. A double digit tax hike right now would bankrupt me. So basically me and millions of other people would be paying a hell of a lot more for a hell of a lot less coverage.

And you know for a fact that you'll receive a double digit tax hike? You have no faith in the "Can do" spirit of America? When have American let themselves be resigned to live in a cesspit?

A healthy America is better for you. Healthy, employable Americans buy products, which creates jobs.

Leaving the system the way is HORRIBLY inefficient (possibly more expensive than UHC) and leaves Americans sick and dying. Socialism is, by far, the least of my worries about the direction the country is turning.

Let's let the rich have all the money, remove all gun laws, and obliterate all the unions. Let's live in small cabals ruled by local warlords like the Somalis. Apparently the Republican dream. Jesus, what's wrong with people?

What good does that do me if I can't afford my bills because I am paying thousands of dollars more in taxes a year.

The system does need to change I have said that many times. We need to get the costs down so more people can afford insurance.

 

[evident]

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: evident
i would just like to share a story.... last year around this time my mom got laid off. about a month later she had a ruptured brain aneurysm and had to be in surgery for 5-6 hours. she then needed 1 month of inpatient therapy and then 2 more months of outpatient therapy then multiple checks and cat scans until now. miraculously she fully recovered.

if she was widowed, we would have had to file bankruptcy to cover her ~$1M medical costs. she would have lost everything that she worked for for the last 30 years after immigrating to this country w/ nothing.

to those who oppose UHC, how do you deal with a situation like my mom had- that is , a undiagnosable (unless you are a hypochondriac and get a brain CT scan every month, which would costs $40k per visit) sudden and expensive procedure that happened right after you become uninsured through no fault of your own? thank god my dad put her on his health plan as soon as she got laid off.

i've posted my story before and the only response i got was "she shouldn't of gotten sick" :roll: how do you not get sick from something you can't control?

So your answer is to bankrupt someone else to pay for her medical bills. A double digit tax hike right now would bankrupt me. So basically me and millions of other people would be paying a hell of a lot more for a hell of a lot less coverage.

but dont we the taxpayer already pay for the uninsured in a backdoor way? like when an uninsured person gets medical attention (homeless, etc). Have you been to other countries and realize how well off we americans have it, yet refuse to help those who are uninsured? would your solution be to let them die?

what's your solution for someone in a situation like my mom, but was uninsured? bankruptcy? if a single person had to declare bankruptcy and didnt have family support, they would be on the streets and even be more parasitic to taxpayers, no?

Originally posted by: quest55720
What good does that do me if I can't afford my bills because I am paying thousands of dollars more in taxes a year.

The system does need to change I have said that many times. We need to get the costs down so more people can afford insurance.

how do we do this? if you buy straight up health insurance and you're older, its gonna run $1k a month, i dont see how many americans can afford this. a cobra for my sister when she got laid off ran about $500 a month, and she's healthy

 

[DefDC]

nm

 

[evident]

Originally posted by: DefDC
Are you going to be paying thousands more a year? You might not. Unless you get your insurance free somehow, the cost is going to continue to skyrocket. You're not whining about the insurance companies taking more of your money, with a 100% chance you'll be paying more soon. Possible a LOT more. And getting less. Possibly a LOT less. If you're healthy now, pray that doesn't change. Hope you keep your job, and you don't start having kidney problems.

Take out the insurance companies. That'll lower the cost. Who needs the middleman? Why do people whine that "I don't want the gov't choosing my doctor", when the HMO tells you who your doctor can be? You're going to be paying more for you health care, FOR CERTAIN. You can choose if you want more or less from it.

i never realized how good me and my family had it with health insurance. it seems like we always had good health coverage compared to other people. i work for a big company now and have great health coverage.

there are also other hardworking ppl out there who have crap coverage plans from their employer, who can't even get preventative checkups or have alot of exclusions. they have no choice in their say either, but they probably pay the same or more than me for their health plan. i really don't understand our health system now,

 

[DefDC]

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: DefDC

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: evident
i would just like to share a story.... last year around this time my mom got laid off. about a month later she had a ruptured brain aneurysm and had to be in surgery for 5-6 hours. she then needed 1 month of inpatient therapy and then 2 more months of outpatient therapy then multiple checks and cat scans until now. miraculously she fully recovered.

if she was widowed, we would have had to file bankruptcy to cover her ~$1M medical costs. she would have lost everything that she worked for for the last 30 years after immigrating to this country w/ nothing.

to those who oppose UHC, how do you deal with a situation like my mom had- that is , a undiagnosable (unless you are a hypochondriac and get a brain CT scan every month, which would costs $40k per visit) sudden and expensive procedure that happened right after you become uninsured through no fault of your own? thank god my dad put her on his health plan as soon as she got laid off.

i've posted my story before and the only response i got was "she shouldn't of gotten sick" :roll: how do you not get sick from something you can't control?

So your answer is to bankrupt someone else to pay for her medical bills. A double digit tax hike right now would bankrupt me. So basically me and millions of other people would be paying a hell of a lot more for a hell of a lot less coverage.

And you know for a fact that you'll receive a double digit tax hike? You have no faith in the "Can do" spirit of America? When have American let themselves be resigned to live in a cesspit?

A healthy America is better for you. Healthy, employable Americans buy products, which creates jobs.

Leaving the system the way is HORRIBLY inefficient (possibly more expensive than UHC) and leaves Americans sick and dying. Socialism is, by far, the least of my worries about the direction the country is turning.

Let's let the rich have all the money, remove all gun laws, and obliterate all the unions. Let's live in small cabals ruled by local warlords like the Somalis. Apparently the Republican dream. Jesus, what's wrong with people?

What good does that do me if I can't afford my bills because I am paying thousands of dollars more in taxes a year.

The system does need to change I have said that many times. We need to get the costs down so more people can afford insurance.

Are you going to be paying thousands more a year? You might not. Unless you get your insurance free somehow, the cost is going to continue to skyrocket. You're not whining about the insurance companies taking more of your money, with a 100% chance you'll be paying more soon. Possible a LOT more. And getting less. Possibly a LOT less. If you're healthy now, pray that doesn't change. Hope you keep your job, and you don't start having kidney problems.

Take out the insurance companies. That'll lower the cost. Who needs the middleman? Why do people whine that "I don't want the gov't choosing my doctor", when the HMO tells you who your doctor can be? You're going to be paying more for you health care, FOR CERTAIN. You can choose if you want more or less from it.

 

[evident]

double post

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: DefDC
Are you going to be paying thousands more a year? You might not. Unless you get your insurance free somehow, the cost is going to continue to skyrocket. You're not whining about the insurance companies taking more of your money, with a 100% chance you'll be paying more soon. Possible a LOT more. And getting less. Possibly a LOT less. If you're healthy now, pray that doesn't change. Hope you keep your job, and you don't start having kidney problems.

Take out the insurance companies. That'll lower the cost. Who needs the middleman? Why do people whine that "I don't want the gov't choosing my doctor", when the HMO tells you who your doctor can be? You're going to be paying more for you health care, FOR CERTAIN. You can choose if you want more or less from it.

I will be just like millions of single middle class people. The poor won't have to pay for it and those evil rich people don't have enough to pay for it. The cost will squarely fall on the middle class. So the middle class will have to pay for our share and several other people who won't have to pay a dime.

Maybe when the government can prove it can run anything right they can have a chance at health care. You seen how the government has pissed away trillions on the public school system? You see how the government is about to bankrupt social security? I am sorry but if this corrupt government takes over health care we will see rationing boards and waiting lists for everything. Add to that the influx of illegals who have serious illness looking for free care will just drain the system even more.

 

[DefDC]

Our system now already costs us fortune and give illegals free health care. What is going to be worse? The millions of people that can get health care and be employable?

Good things that are socialized?
Police
Fire deptartments
Roads
Streetlights
Power grid
space program
libraries
Plenty of stuff...

Don't let Limbaugh do the thinking for you...