Union Workers at Big Three Automakers Average $73 an Hour

[SP33Demon]

This is one of the reasons, but not the main, why they cannot remain competitive.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975


Yep and current Toyota workers when you include their bonus, which i did not see added to the labor cost in these stories, make as much and sometimes more then current GM workers.

"The UAW is losing its edge in pay compared with non-unionized U.S. assembly plant workers for foreign companies, even as Detroit automakers aim for deeper benefit cuts to trim their losses.

In at least one case last year, workers for a foreign automaker for the first time averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members working for domestic automakers, according to an economist for the Center for Automotive Research and figures supplied to the Free Press by auto companies.

In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers"

CEO salary at Toyota - $903,000 (2002)
Ford - $2M base, $4M bonus, $11M stock and options (2007)
GM - $8.3M (2003), $2.2M + $1.68M in stock (2008)--aww, poor baby took a pay cut

American companies always claim that their CEOs need super high salaries "to attract the best & brightest". Yeah, that explains why Toyota is so mismanaged. Maybe we should outsource management to India and keep manufacturing jobs here...that's gotta save a lot of money.

Of course, even these numbers pale in comparison to Wall Street.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
quick, someone figure out how much southern states subsidize toyota and nissan and honda. IIRC they get tons of tax exemptions and crap.

So what if they do?

Sez the socialist who supports gov't subsidies of private corporations and then complains about GM workers being paid $35/hr ...

 

[Mark R]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
It's not like the competition is being made in Guatemala, it's being made in Germany and Japan, two countries not famous for their low cost labor. If what you say is true, that means that Detroit is somehow screwing things up big time. And while it's easy (and politically convenient) for you folks to blame the unions, they don't have the power to screw things up all on their own.

It takes more than twice as many man-hours for GM to build a car, than Toyota or Honda. (35 man-hours vs 15 man-hours).

Most of this is due to poor management and inefficient production methods. However, a significant part is due to union demands, and GM can, and does, achieve dramatic efficiency improvements in some of their overseas plants.

For example, on relatively specialised part of the production line, there may not be sufficient demand for several machine tools to be in use continuously. One of the problems with the UAW contract is that employees must only have a single machine dedicated to their use for that shift. This leads to a singificant number of staff just sitting around for 3 or 4 hours per day because there isn't a requirement for them to be machining something, yet their employment contract prevents them from working in another part of the plant during that time.

Similarly, it's common practice in Japan and overseas for major automotive plants to have parts of the plant leased to key parts suppliers. E.g. the company that supplies the wiring looms has a unit in the same building, and builds to order direct from the main manufacturers order book, delivering the assemblies direct to the production line where they are immediately installed in the vehicle. Again, this is another efficiency measure banned by the UAW, which means parts and assemblies (wiring, dashboard, etc.) have to be ordered in advance, shipped and then kept in stock.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Marlin1975


Yep and current Toyota workers when you include their bonus, which i did not see added to the labor cost in these stories, make as much and sometimes more then current GM workers.

"The UAW is losing its edge in pay compared with non-unionized U.S. assembly plant workers for foreign companies, even as Detroit automakers aim for deeper benefit cuts to trim their losses.

In at least one case last year, workers for a foreign automaker for the first time averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members working for domestic automakers, according to an economist for the Center for Automotive Research and figures supplied to the Free Press by auto companies.

In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers"

CEO salary at Toyota - $903,000 (2002)
Ford - $2M base, $4M bonus, $11M stock and options (2007)
GM - $8.3M (2003), $2.2M + $1.68M in stock (2008)--aww, poor baby took a pay cut

American companies always claim that their CEOs need super high salaries "to attract the best & brightest". Yeah, that explains why Toyota is so mismanaged. Maybe we should outsource management to India and keep manufacturing jobs here...that's gotta save a lot of money.

Of course, even these numbers pale in comparison to Wall Street.

Brilliant! I agree. At least we'd know the Indian President would be smart, hard working, and maybe even creative.

-Robert

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by: bctbct

State lacks money to lure industrial development
Published: June 27, 2002
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Dwindling state money for economic development incentives is keeping Tennessee from luring major industrial projects, according to those trying to do the recruiting.

"We don't even have the cost of admission to the game," said Janet Miller, economic development director for the Nashville Area Chamber of Commerce.

The budget for Tennessee's chief economic development incentive program has been sliced by more than half -- from $16.5 million to $6.5 million, a move officials say prompted companies to bypass the Volunteer state and strike deals with Tennessee's neighbors instead.

In addition, a no-new-taxes budget being considered by the state legislature would cut funding by 42 percent for the Department of Economic and Community Development, which is responsible for luring business to Tennessee.

"We just can't get that aggressive at the state level. Kentucky, Alabama and Mississippi are all able to shoot us out of the water," said Randy Brewer, president of the Lawrenceburg/Lawrence County Chamber of Commerce.

In the past 18 months three large automotive companies that considered building or expanding a plant in Tennessee were drawn to other states offering pricey incentives.

Mississippi gave Nissan North America $295 million in incentives and more than $400 million in additional tax credits two years ago to build its $930 million truck plant in Canton, Miss. It added another $68 million incentive package last week and landed a $500 million expansion project that will increase total employment at the plant to 5,300.

Hyundai Motor Co. received $234 million in incentives from Alabama in April to build a $1 billion plant that will employ 2,000 people near Montgomery, Ala. It beat Kentucky, which offered $123 million in incentives.

Alabama also offered Toyota Motor Co. $29 million in economic incentives in 2001 to build its $220 million engine plant in Huntsville, Ala., instead of Clarksville, Tenn. The facility will employ about 350 people.

"It's frustrating," said George Halford, president and chief executive officer of the Clarksville/Montgomery County Economic Development Council.Halford said Tennessee was unable to match Alabama's plan, despite Clarksville's attractive local package for tax exemptions.

In the past, Tennessee has given tax credits for large projects. But most of its economic incentives come through job training and infrastructure, such as roads and water and sewer lines.

"We lose because other states are willing to go to the well," said ECD Commissioner Tony Grande.

------

On the Net:

Tennessee Department of Economic and Community Development: http://www.state.tn.us/ecd/


Text

FWIW, Tennessee just beat out Alabama for a new VW plant a couple months ago. In Chattanooga I think.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
quick, someone figure out how much southern states subsidize toyota and nissan and honda. IIRC they get tons of tax exemptions and crap.

State lacks money to lure industrial development
Published: June 27, 2002
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Dwindling state money for economic development incentives is keeping Tennessee from luring major industrial projects, according to those trying to do the recruiting.

"We don't even have the cost of admission to the game," said Janet Miller, economic development director for the Nashville Area Chamber of Commerce.

The budget for Tennessee's chief economic development incentive program has been sliced by more than half -- from $16.5 million to $6.5 million, a move officials say prompted companies to bypass the Volunteer state and strike deals with Tennessee's neighbors instead.

In addition, a no-new-taxes budget being considered by the state legislature would cut funding by 42 percent for the Department of Economic and Community Development, which is responsible for luring business to Tennessee.

"We just can't get that aggressive at the state level. Kentucky, Alabama and Mississippi are all able to shoot us out of the water," said Randy Brewer, president of the Lawrenceburg/Lawrence County Chamber of Commerce.

In the past 18 months three large automotive companies that considered building or expanding a plant in Tennessee were drawn to other states offering pricey incentives.

Mississippi gave Nissan North America $295 million in incentives and more than $400 million in additional tax credits two years ago to build its $930 million truck plant in Canton, Miss. It added another $68 million incentive package last week and landed a $500 million expansion project that will increase total employment at the plant to 5,300.

Hyundai Motor Co. received $234 million in incentives from Alabama in April to build a $1 billion plant that will employ 2,000 people near Montgomery, Ala. It beat Kentucky, which offered $123 million in incentives.

Alabama also offered Toyota Motor Co. $29 million in economic incentives in 2001 to build its $220 million engine plant in Huntsville, Ala., instead of Clarksville, Tenn. The facility will employ about 350 people.

"It's frustrating," said George Halford, president and chief executive officer of the Clarksville/Montgomery County Economic Development Council.Halford said Tennessee was unable to match Alabama's plan, despite Clarksville's attractive local package for tax exemptions.

In the past, Tennessee has given tax credits for large projects. But most of its economic incentives come through job training and infrastructure, such as roads and water and sewer lines.

"We lose because other states are willing to go to the well," said ECD Commissioner Tony Grande.

------

On the Net:

Tennessee Department of Economic and Community Development: http://www.state.tn.us/ecd/


Text

No mention of the tax breaks GM recently received to upgrade its Spring Hill, Tennessee manufacturing plant? This is on top of the huge tax incentives that originally brought the plant to Tennessee in the 80's. Tennessee and other southern states don't just court foreign auto plants, they try to attract domestic operations as well. There is just not as many new domestic plants being opened. But as I said... GM still gets the tax breaks especially when GM threatened to close the Tennessee plant if they did not get the incentives to upgrade.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: rudder



No mention of the tax breaks GM recently received to upgrade its Spring Hill, Tennessee manufacturing plant? This is on top of the huge tax incentives that originally brought the plant to Tennessee in the 80's. Tennessee and other southern states don't just court foreign auto plants, they try to attract domestic operations as well. There is just not as many new domestic plants being opened. But as I said... GM still gets the tax breaks especially when GM threatened to close the Tennessee plant if they did not get the incentives to upgrade.

The article was dated from 2002, so anything more recent would have required acutely accurate prognostication.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Marlin1975


Yep and current Toyota workers when you include their bonus, which i did not see added to the labor cost in these stories, make as much and sometimes more then current GM workers.

"The UAW is losing its edge in pay compared with non-unionized U.S. assembly plant workers for foreign companies, even as Detroit automakers aim for deeper benefit cuts to trim their losses.

In at least one case last year, workers for a foreign automaker for the first time averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members working for domestic automakers, according to an economist for the Center for Automotive Research and figures supplied to the Free Press by auto companies.

In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers"

CEO salary at Toyota - $903,000 (2002)
Ford - $2M base, $4M bonus, $11M stock and options (2007)
GM - $8.3M (2003), $2.2M + $1.68M in stock (2008)--aww, poor baby took a pay cut

American companies always claim that their CEOs need super high salaries "to attract the best & brightest". Yeah, that explains why Toyota is so mismanaged. Maybe we should outsource management to India and keep manufacturing jobs here...that's gotta save a lot of money.

Of course, even these numbers pale in comparison to Wall Street.

Brilliant! I agree. At least we'd know the Indian President would be smart, hard working, and maybe even creative.

-Robert

Smart and hard working yes. Creative, no. Creative Indians are few and far between. India is is like Japan 30 years ago, cranking out engineers from their factory universities with a script to follow.

 

[outriding]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
The first thing that needs to be done away with is this Job Bank where all unemployed UAW members receive 96% of their pay for two years after they are laid off.

A better question is why did GM upper management move jobs to somewhere else when the contract with the local UAW stated GM would still provide jobs to UAW members for X amount of years.

(I worked in a place where UAW people would sit for 8 hours a day in the jobs bank and my dad was one of them).

Stupid GM management

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Everyone should go read the piece by Mitt Romney.

The big 3 pay $2000 more per car in employment expenses. That is why their cars feel cheaper, because that have to be cheaper in order to compete.

Giving them another $50 billion is not going to solve this problem.

What I want to know is this:

the UAW cut its work force from 150k people to 60k people.

I want to know how many thousands of dollars from each car go to compensation of Management, overhead for things like a CORPORATE G4 JET etc.

I think the workers made a lot of concessions, but I don't see the concessions that management made. I personally think a CEO of a company who is losing 4-5 billion in cash a MONTH should be paid about 1 million dollars. I am sorry, but the cuts have to go somewhere.

Instead of focusing on the labor costs alone, lets focus on the management costs as well. Are Toyota / Honda etc. paying their management as much as we pay ours?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Everyone should go read the piece by Mitt Romney.

The big 3 pay $2000 more per car in employment expenses. That is why their cars feel cheaper, because that have to be cheaper in order to compete.

Giving them another $50 billion is not going to solve this problem.

What I want to know is this:

the UAW cut its work force from 150k people to 60k people.

I want to know how many thousands of dollars from each car go to compensation of Management, overhead for things like a CORPORATE G4 JET etc.

I think the workers made a lot of concessions, but I don't see the concessions that management made. I personally think a CEO of a company who is losing 4-5 billion in cash a MONTH should be paid about 1 million dollars. I am sorry, but the cuts have to go somewhere.

Instead of focusing on the labor costs alone, lets focus on the management costs as well. Are Toyota / Honda etc. paying their management as much as we pay ours?

I dont believe those concession kick in for a few more years. The G4 jet which apparently is a hot topic and a nice distraction costs pennies on the dollar for these companies. The jet itself provided it was bought outright is about 20-30 million dollars. May cost about 5K\hour to fly it. We are dealing in billions.

The UAW has a general pool of workers that sit idle waiting for work. This is nearly 12,000 employee's. The avg wage for these people is 34\hour. They sit in a room and play cards all day for 34\hour.

So while the world is up in arms about an asset(jet) that costs the company 30 million and has probably since been depreciated. This pool of workers that sits on their ass costs 816 million a year in wages alone. Nevermind the healthcare and pension costs.

Now granted some of these issues will resolve themselves over the coming years. They have so far plagued the big 3 and will continue to do so until things change.

 

[GTKeeper]

As a general notion I just want to say this:


I am sick and tired of all the right wing blowhards here blaming people of the lowest level (basic workers / plant workers) for the fate of the companies that manage them. I don't know if you guys have any real management experience, but in the business I am in, if I have people on a project that I am over paying and they don't do their work, its my ass not theirs. It is my responsibility to structure my projects and to compensate for lazy working people. I can blame them all I want.

I don't how you can not even FAULT the damn management of these companies. I mean they all roll down to DC in their private jets, which shows their true commitment to cost cutting. I mean W T F. People should be outraged on how fat the fat cats have gotten. Ultimately the managers are at fault and they should all be fired. The only people I feel bad for are the millions who will lose their jobs.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
As a general notion I just want to say this:


I am sick and tired of all the right wing blowhards here blaming people of the lowest level (basic workers / plant workers) for the fate of the companies that manage them. I don't know if you guys have any real management experience, but in the business I am in, if I have people on a project that I am over paying and they don't do their work, its my ass not theirs. It is my responsibility to structure my projects and to compensate for lazy working people. I can blame them all I want.

I don't how you can not even FAULT the damn management of these companies. I mean they all roll down to DC in their private jets, which shows their true commitment to cost cutting. I mean W T F. People should be outraged on how fat the fat cats have gotten. Ultimately the managers are at fault and they should all be fired. The only people I feel bad for are the millions who will lose their jobs.

Who is giving management a pass? They should be tossed out on their ear as well. But the biggest cost will be labor. A bigger pool of employee's equals a bigger slice of the pie.

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: GTKeeper

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Everyone should go read the piece by Mitt Romney.

The big 3 pay $2000 more per car in employment expenses. That is why their cars feel cheaper, because that have to be cheaper in order to compete.

Giving them another $50 billion is not going to solve this problem.

What I want to know is this:

the UAW cut its work force from 150k people to 60k people.

I want to know how many thousands of dollars from each car go to compensation of Management, overhead for things like a CORPORATE G4 JET etc.

I think the workers made a lot of concessions, but I don't see the concessions that management made. I personally think a CEO of a company who is losing 4-5 billion in cash a MONTH should be paid about 1 million dollars. I am sorry, but the cuts have to go somewhere.

Instead of focusing on the labor costs alone, lets focus on the management costs as well. Are Toyota / Honda etc. paying their management as much as we pay ours?

I dont believe those concession kick in for a few more years. The G4 jet which apparently is a hot topic and a nice distraction costs pennies on the dollar for these companies. The jet itself provided it was bought outright is about 20-30 million dollars. May cost about 5K\hour to fly it. We are dealing in billions.

The UAW has a general pool of workers that sit idle waiting for work. This is nearly 12,000 employee's. The avg wage for these people is 34\hour. They sit in a room and play cards all day for 34\hour.

So while the world is up in arms about an asset(jet) that costs the company 30 million and has probably since been depreciated. This pool of workers that sits on their ass costs 816 million a year in wages alone. Nevermind the healthcare and pension costs.

Now granted some of these issues will resolve themselves over the coming years. They have so far plagued the big 3 and will continue to do so until things change.

I think the G4 is just PART of the massive overhead of luxury that these companies have a problem with. It reminds me of Bethel Steel who built a damn CROSS SHAPED office building so that it could maximize the number of corner offices for their directors. Needless to say Bethel went under. Yea the G4 doesn't cost much by itself, but what it REPRESENTS goes to the heart of the matter. I.E I haven't done everything in my power to reduce costs at my company, but DAMN I am sure going to ask for 10-12 billion of the 25 billion pie. I mean W T F. I am so pissed off about this its not even funny. If Wagoner and his execs cut their salaries, that gives your company a few more weeks of life (cash wise), but they absolutely DO NOT CARE.

If management was really concerned about their own company / share holders, they would sell off every unused office / building / plant. Stop ordering things like catering, stop flying jets, reduce their own executive pay and bonuses. It always has to start at the top. If they actually did those things maybe the UAW would be more willing to reduce their benefits.

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
As a general notion I just want to say this:


I am sick and tired of all the right wing blowhards here blaming people of the lowest level (basic workers / plant workers) for the fate of the companies that manage them. I don't know if you guys have any real management experience, but in the business I am in, if I have people on a project that I am over paying and they don't do their work, its my ass not theirs. It is my responsibility to structure my projects and to compensate for lazy working people. I can blame them all I want.

I don't how you can not even FAULT the damn management of these companies. I mean they all roll down to DC in their private jets, which shows their true commitment to cost cutting. I mean W T F. People should be outraged on how fat the fat cats have gotten. Ultimately the managers are at fault and they should all be fired. The only people I feel bad for are the millions who will lose their jobs.

Who is giving management a pass? They should be tossed out on their ear as well. But the biggest cost will be labor. A bigger pool of employee's equals a bigger slice of the pie.

This is true, but just because the labor pool is the biggest chunk of the pie, that doesn't mean that it has the MOST room for cost cutting. I would love to see the day when the 3 CEO losers come into congress and say. 'We cut our salaries by 80%, we sold our jets, we reduced total white collar / management pay, but we need more, we need the UAW to reduce their costs, and we need some help from the gov't as well'.

My point is they didnt even TRY. The way I see it, is you try as hard as you can, not this whole piece meal bullshit of 'oh um, lets keep the jet and all the other expensive shit around because its a small chunk of the pie'. WTF kind of mentality is that?

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Mark R

It takes more than twice as many man-hours for GM to build a car, than Toyota or Honda. (35 man-hours vs 15 man-hours).

Most of this is due to poor management and inefficient production methods. However, a significant part is due to union demands, and GM can, and does, achieve dramatic efficiency improvements in some of their overseas plants.

You Fail.

Chrysler was 7.7-percent more efficient than the previous year and Toyota got 1.5-percent less efficient, to tie at 30.37 hours, average, to make a new vehicle in North America.

When Harbour adds up all the man-hours it takes to build a car or truck, including stamping, assembly, engine and transmission manufacture, Hyundai was seventh of seven majors, at 35.1 hours per vehicle in North America. Ford Motor Company was sixth, at 33.88 hours, a 3.7-percent improvement over last year, Nissan was fifth, at an estimated 32.96 hours, or 8.8 percent more time than the previous year, and GM was fourth, at 32.29 hours, a 0.2-percent improvement. Honda was third, at 31.33 hours, a 2.3-percent improvement.

The Jeep Toledo South plant needs just 13.57 employee-hours to assemble a vehicle, a significant margin over the second-place Oshawa, Ontario, Chevy Impala/Monte Carlo plant (15.18 hours) and third-place Oshawa Pontiac Grand Prix/Buick LaCrosse plant (16.17 hours). Belvidere, Illinois, was fourth, needing 17.09 hours to assemble Dodge Caliber/Jeep Compass/Patriot, and GM's CAMI plant in Ontario was fifth. It needs 17.59 hours to assemble a Chevy Equinox, Pontiac Torrent, or Suzuki XL-7.

So much for your BS ....

Toyota, Chrysler have North America's most efficient plants

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
New workers are getting paid under $25 hour including benefits.

I have to say that some of you are so fucking stupid its not even funny.

That $73 figure is arrived at by taking the total cost of all past and present workers, including all benefits, and dividing it by the number of CURRENT employees. In other words, workers at the big 3 automakers do NOT "average $73 an hour" in pay or benefits.

In any case, even if it wasn't for the 3rd grade math failure, the thesis of this article (from a completely biased "news" source), I see no argument that the cost is the main reason the automakers are having problems...other than the repeated assertions by conservatives that this "must" be the case.

When current workers force the company to pay for past workers in the form of an oppressive labor union, there's no reason not to count them.

You are philosophically opposed to unions, regardless of the result. Which is why you continually cite only right wing blogs and spews sources. The math is not only juvenile it says nothing about the obscene amounts of money paid to management. Whine about management pay a bit and you might get a more receptive ear, but probably not.

The problems with the auto industry are mainly it's lack of innovation and leadership by management, a fickle economy, and slightly high wages for workers. But, those workers spend their money in AMERICA and they pay taxes in AMERICA. The plus side for our economy is huge.

Don't diss the workers or the unions. By the way, I love to hear the right wing use the word 'oppressive'.

-Robert

The amount of money that management makes is pretty much chump change in the grand scheme of things compared to the tens of thousands of overpaid union contracts.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
As a general notion I just want to say this:


I am sick and tired of all the right wing blowhards here blaming people of the lowest level (basic workers / plant workers) for the fate of the companies that manage them. I don't know if you guys have any real management experience, but in the business I am in, if I have people on a project that I am over paying and they don't do their work, its my ass not theirs. It is my responsibility to structure my projects and to compensate for lazy working people. I can blame them all I want.

That's where the Union comes in. They control aspects of how you do your job as a manager. You're not free to respond to conditions as required when they are involved.

I don't how you can not even FAULT the damn management of these companies.

We do you fool, that's why we stand against the bailout. Why do you want to reward them with our money?

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

So when Toyota negotiates that?s good. But if workers negotiate its bad? Last I checked most people are not in a union but Toyota is the only one to make Toyotas. So it seems unions do not have a monopoly yet Toyota does on its own cars yet now you change your story from what you said above.

When you negotiate your own employer into the ground? I'll let you use the word good or bad, but it's hardly desirable.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
As a general notion I just want to say this:


I am sick and tired of all the right wing blowhards here blaming people of the lowest level (basic workers / plant workers) for the fate of the companies that manage them. I don't know if you guys have any real management experience, but in the business I am in, if I have people on a project that I am over paying and they don't do their work, its my ass not theirs. It is my responsibility to structure my projects and to compensate for lazy working people. I can blame them all I want.

I don't how you can not even FAULT the damn management of these companies. I mean they all roll down to DC in their private jets, which shows their true commitment to cost cutting. I mean W T F. People should be outraged on how fat the fat cats have gotten. Ultimately the managers are at fault and they should all be fired. The only people I feel bad for are the millions who will lose their jobs.

Who is giving management a pass? They should be tossed out on their ear as well. But the biggest cost will be labor. A bigger pool of employee's equals a bigger slice of the pie.

Exactly. I've not seen anyone give management a total pass.

 

[TheSlamma]

This same thing happened back in Ohio when I grew up there with the steel mills and parts factories. People were making $19 an hour swinging a hammer in the 1970's, meanwhile people with a BS in Microbiology or other 4 year college degrees were making $6.75.. Unions forced these companies to move overseas.

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
As a general notion I just want to say this:


I am sick and tired of all the right wing blowhards here blaming people of the lowest level (basic workers / plant workers) for the fate of the companies that manage them. I don't know if you guys have any real management experience, but in the business I am in, if I have people on a project that I am over paying and they don't do their work, its my ass not theirs. It is my responsibility to structure my projects and to compensate for lazy working people. I can blame them all I want.

That's where the Union comes in. They control aspects of how you do your job as a manager. You're not free to respond to conditions as required when they are involved.

I don't how you can not even FAULT the damn management of these companies.

We do you fool, that's why we stand against the bailout. Why do you want to reward them with our money?

I don't, and these companies need to go into Chapter 11 and re-structure. Thanks for assuming my position though, fool.

To say that the UAW has 'tied the management's hands' its just an excuse. The UAW did not prevent GM from making crappy cars that no one wants to buy.

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
As a general notion I just want to say this:


I am sick and tired of all the right wing blowhards here blaming people of the lowest level (basic workers / plant workers) for the fate of the companies that manage them. I don't know if you guys have any real management experience, but in the business I am in, if I have people on a project that I am over paying and they don't do their work, its my ass not theirs. It is my responsibility to structure my projects and to compensate for lazy working people. I can blame them all I want.

I don't how you can not even FAULT the damn management of these companies. I mean they all roll down to DC in their private jets, which shows their true commitment to cost cutting. I mean W T F. People should be outraged on how fat the fat cats have gotten. Ultimately the managers are at fault and they should all be fired. The only people I feel bad for are the millions who will lose their jobs.

Who is giving management a pass? They should be tossed out on their ear as well. But the biggest cost will be labor. A bigger pool of employee's equals a bigger slice of the pie.

Exactly. I've not seen anyone give management a total pass.

Yes, but your assumption is that its never 100% management's fault. What I am saying is that its 90% the management's fault. The buck stops there, they control the direction of the company. To say that the UAW is solely responsible for the demise of the big 3 is pure fantasy.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
As a general notion I just want to say this:


I am sick and tired of all the right wing blowhards here blaming people of the lowest level (basic workers / plant workers) for the fate of the companies that manage them. I don't know if you guys have any real management experience, but in the business I am in, if I have people on a project that I am over paying and they don't do their work, its my ass not theirs. It is my responsibility to structure my projects and to compensate for lazy working people. I can blame them all I want.

I don't how you can not even FAULT the damn management of these companies. I mean they all roll down to DC in their private jets, which shows their true commitment to cost cutting. I mean W T F. People should be outraged on how fat the fat cats have gotten. Ultimately the managers are at fault and they should all be fired. The only people I feel bad for are the millions who will lose their jobs.

Who is giving management a pass? They should be tossed out on their ear as well. But the biggest cost will be labor. A bigger pool of employee's equals a bigger slice of the pie.

Exactly. I've not seen anyone give management a total pass.

Yes, but your assumption is that its never 100% management's fault. What I am saying is that its 90% the management's fault. The buck stops there, they control the direction of the company. To say that the UAW is solely responsible for the demise of the big 3 is pure fantasy.

you know my assumptions(you likely mean premise)?

You can try to play the fault percentage game if you wish but it doesn't change the facts on the ground. The companies need to file chap 11 if they want to survive(if they really are as bad as they claim they are) and drop the dead weight. Obviously with a restructure, all areas will be trimmed or cut - this includes management.