Union Workers at Big Three Automakers Average $73 an Hour

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
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Barney Frank wants to protect the unions who donate and vote Democratic.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/m...ptcy-would-bust-unions

BARNEY FRANK: Bankruptcy would be very disruptive. Bankruptcy is a favorite spectator sport for politicians and experts who don't have to engage in it. You have a whole network of suppliers--small businesses and others--who would get "stiffed," to use the legal term, in a bankruptcy.

There is also an assumption that if you do bankruptcy, you could undo labor contracts. Now the unions to their credit have negotiated some concessions. But you know, we already have too much union-busting and too much income inequality for the average worker in this country for us to now say by the way, if you're a company and you haven't been able to totally get rid of the unions, then go bankrupt and rewrite, write down the contracts.


http://www.cnsnews.com/public/...icle.aspx?RsrcID=39499

(CNSNews.com) ? Economists in Michigan, the long-time home of the auto industry, say they don?t support the proposed multi-billion dollar bailout of Big Three automakers Chrysler, GM and Ford.

One reason why, they say, is the ultra-high labor costs for union workers employed by the Big Three. It costs over $73 per hour on average to employ a union auto worker, according to University of Michigan at Flint economist Mark J. Perry.

?Is it right to tax the average worker making $28.50 to bailout workers whose labor cost is over $73 an hour?? Perry asked.

He explained that in 2006, widely available industry and Labor Department statistics placed the average labor cost for UAW-represented workers at the former DaimlerChrysler at $75.86 per hour. For Ford it was $70.51, he said, and for General Motors it was $73.26.

?That includes the hourly pay, plus the benefits they?re receiving and all the other costs to General Motors, Ford and Chrysler, including legacy costs ? retirement costs, pensions, and so on ? so it?s looking at the total labor costs per hour worked for workers,? Perry said.

For U.S. workers at Toyota, however, the per hour labor cost is around $47.60, around $43 for Honda and around $42 for Nissan, Perry added, for an average of around $44.

?So we?re looking at somewhere around a $29 per hour pay gap between the Big Three and the foreign transplants that are producing cars in the United States,? Perry, chairman of the economics department, told CNSNews.com.

The average union worker at Chrysler, meanwhile, received 150 percent more in compensation than U.S. workers generally.

?Using Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers, the average compensation for manufacturing workers is around $31.50, and the average hourly compensation, including benefits, for the average worker in the U.S. economy is around $28.50,? Perry told CNSNews.com.

If you annualize Chrysler?s labor cost of $75.86 an hour per worker over a 35-hour week, for 50-weeks a year, the yearly compensation comes in at almost $133,000 per worker per year.

?That?s the cost to Chrysler of those workers,? Perry added. ?That?s not necessarily what the worker would receive in a paycheck.?

Perry, meanwhile, said he is not personally in favor of a bailout.

?The question is, where do you stop? Would this just be a downpayment on a continuing bailout that they would need in the future?? he asked.

?Once we?re in for $25 billion, or $50 billion, it?s going to be a lot easier for them to ask for more money later,? he added.

The alternative to a bailout, Perry said, would be bankruptcy.

?We have a bankruptcy law to protect companies that need to go through reorganization for protection from their creditors,? Perry said.

Perry noted that proponents of a bailout cite a study that shows that one job out of every 10 jobs in the U.S. economy is tied to the auto industry.

?If we want this industry to be competitive and survive for the next decade or more, they really have to get their labor costs in line with reality and the global marketplace,? he said.

?Maybe it is time for the production to shift towards companies that have lower labor costs; that are more efficient and more productive. Even if that wasn?t production that took place in Michigan by United Auto Workers, it would still be production that would take place somewhere in the U.S. economy. So we would still have a large number of jobs tied to the auto industry.?

Hart C. Posen, a business school professor at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, said there are many economists who still question the 1979 bailout of Chrysler ? and whether it was the right thing to do for the auto industry. He is one of them.

?There is no evidence that, in the long run, having bailed out Chrysler we?ve done anything good for the Michigan economy,? Posen told CNSNews.com

?My sense is that even with the bailout, one or more of those firms will disappear anyway,? he added. ?There is significant overcapacity in the American automobile industry, and it is typically inevitable when there is significant overcapacity that some of it gets eliminated.?

A bailout directly to automakers will only delay the inevitable, Posen said.

?Historically, one of the strengths of the U.S. economy has been its willingness to let inefficient firms fail and redeploy those resources ? money, but also people ? to new and potentially more successful businesses. I think that has always been one of the distinctive strengths of the U.S. economy.?

Michael LaFaive at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a free-market foundation in Midland, Mich., said all bailouts are bad policy ? at least from an economic standpoint.

?They encourage what should be discouraged ? basically commerce becoming supplicants of the federal government ? or some other level of government. They discourage prudent decision-making on the part of business management and entrepreneurs. After all, if there is someone else there to pick up your mess, why be careful??

Even President Bush, who supports the bailout, seemed to hint that contracts guaranteeing high compensation levels to UAW members are a stumbling block to reaching an agreement.

?The automakers have over time made some decisions based on their needs for their employees, and some of those decisions might have to be reworked, going forward,? White House Press Secretary Dana Perino said Monday.



Hopefully GM and the union run out of cash before January 20 so we can be rid of them and their failed business model.

 
Feb 19, 2001
20,155
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Ok, and healthcare pension benefits are supposed to be completely offloaded by 2010-2011 right? So hopefully this should be a nonissue in the future.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
Okay, going after this as a Republican/Democrat issue is wrong, but doesn't the point still stand as correct? The workers are getting paid absurd amounts.
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
New workers are getting paid under $25 hour including benefits.

I have to say that some of you are so fucking stupid its not even funny.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
New workers are getting paid under $25 hour including benefits.

I have to say that some of you are so fucking stupid its not even funny.

That $73 figure is arrived at by taking the total cost of all past and present workers, including all benefits, and dividing it by the number of CURRENT employees. In other words, workers at the big 3 automakers do NOT "average $73 an hour" in pay or benefits.

In any case, even if it wasn't for the 3rd grade math failure, the thesis of this article (from a completely biased "news" source), I see no argument that the cost is the main reason the automakers are having problems...other than the repeated assertions by conservatives that this "must" be the case.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Of course the democrats are going to help out their union cronies. Next they will pass that law which gets rid of secret ballots when voting for a union.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
New workers are getting paid under $25 hour including benefits.

I have to say that some of you are so fucking stupid its not even funny.

That $73 figure is arrived at by taking the total cost of all past and present workers, including all benefits, and dividing it by the number of CURRENT employees. In other words, workers at the big 3 automakers do NOT "average $73 an hour" in pay or benefits.

In any case, even if it wasn't for the 3rd grade math failure, the thesis of this article (from a completely biased "news" source), I see no argument that the cost is the main reason the automakers are having problems...other than the repeated assertions by conservatives that this "must" be the case.

When current workers force the company to pay for past workers in the form of an oppressive labor union, there's no reason not to count them.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
New workers are getting paid under $25 hour including benefits.

I have to say that some of you are so fucking stupid its not even funny.

That $73 figure is arrived at by taking the total cost of all past and present workers, including all benefits, and dividing it by the number of CURRENT employees. In other words, workers at the big 3 automakers do NOT "average $73 an hour" in pay or benefits.

In any case, even if it wasn't for the 3rd grade math failure, the thesis of this article (from a completely biased "news" source), I see no argument that the cost is the main reason the automakers are having problems...other than the repeated assertions by conservatives that this "must" be the case.

When current workers force the company to pay for past workers in the form of an oppressive labor union, there's no reason not to count them.
It's just not fair is it?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
New workers are getting paid under $25 hour including benefits.

I have to say that some of you are so fucking stupid its not even funny.

That $73 figure is arrived at by taking the total cost of all past and present workers, including all benefits, and dividing it by the number of CURRENT employees. In other words, workers at the big 3 automakers do NOT "average $73 an hour" in pay or benefits.

In any case, even if it wasn't for the 3rd grade math failure, the thesis of this article (from a completely biased "news" source), I see no argument that the cost is the main reason the automakers are having problems...other than the repeated assertions by conservatives that this "must" be the case.

When current workers force the company to pay for past workers in the form of an oppressive labor union, there's no reason not to count them.

I'm pretty sure the company is paying for past workers because they agreed to do so back then. It's called a pension plan, and nobody held a gun to their head any more than they hold a gun to the heads of workers when they want some kind of concession. It's called capitalism, even when it's labor trying to get something out of management rather than the other way around. If the companies feel things are unfair, maybe they should hire different workers. After all, that's the advice when management is screwing labor, right?

In any case, the reason I brought it up is that I wonder what the cost is for companies like Toyota when you take the same factors into consideration. This article was so blatantly biased that I have a feeling that the surprising differences were arrived at by measuring totally different things.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Of course the democrats are going to help out their union cronies. Next they will pass that law which gets rid of secret ballots when voting for a union.

And of course you guys are SOOOO quick to jump to the defense of the poor, defenseless enormous multi-national companies. It MUST be labor that's the problem here, because a corporation has never done anything stupid ever! :roll:
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
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Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm pretty sure the company is paying for past workers because they agreed to do so back then. It's called a pension plan, and nobody held a gun to their head any more than they hold a gun to the heads of workers when they want some kind of concession. It's called capitalism, even when it's labor trying to get something out of management rather than the other way around. If the companies feel things are unfair, maybe they should hire different workers. After all, that's the advice when management is screwing labor, right?

In any case, the reason I brought it up is that I wonder what the cost is for companies like Toyota when you take the same factors into consideration. This article was so blatantly biased that I have a feeling that the surprising differences were arrived at by measuring totally different things.

Sure...except for the fact that the labor union forms a monopoly on labor and thus had the ability to do something similar to holding a gun to their head. It's no different than Microsoft, who we tried to bust in the 90s or any other monopoly.

And yeah, management has done something stupid. They didn't bust the union way back then. Of course, that management is long dead.
 

dartworth

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
15,200
10
81
Originally posted by: winnar111


When current workers force the company to pay for past workers in the form of an oppressive labor union, there's no reason not to count them.

you obviously have no idea what the purpose of a union is...
 

dartworth

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
15,200
10
81
Originally posted by: winnar111


Sure...except for the fact that the labor union forms a monopoly on labor and thus had the ability to do something similar to holding a gun to their head. It's no different than Microsoft, who we tried to bust in the 90s or any other monopoly.

And yeah, management has done something stupid. They didn't bust the union way back then. Of course, that management is long dead.

monopoly? lol

it is called collective bargaining...
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm pretty sure the company is paying for past workers because they agreed to do so back then. It's called a pension plan, and nobody held a gun to their head any more than they hold a gun to the heads of workers when they want some kind of concession. It's called capitalism, even when it's labor trying to get something out of management rather than the other way around. If the companies feel things are unfair, maybe they should hire different workers. After all, that's the advice when management is screwing labor, right?

In any case, the reason I brought it up is that I wonder what the cost is for companies like Toyota when you take the same factors into consideration. This article was so blatantly biased that I have a feeling that the surprising differences were arrived at by measuring totally different things.

Sure...except for the fact that the labor union forms a monopoly on labor and thus had the ability to do something similar to holding a gun to their head. It's no different than Microsoft, who we tried to bust in the 90s or any other monopoly.

And yeah, management has done something stupid. They didn't bust the union way back then. Of course, that management is long dead.

Unions are not a monopoly on labor any more than your employer has a monopoly on employment. Your employer can fire you and feel far less impact than you do when you're fired. Collective bargaining puts workers on the same level, employers can't screw with them without feeling the same kind of pain workers feel. But if GM really wanted to, they could totally dump all their union employees and start from scratch. Of course doing so would hurt them, but no more than getting fired hurts a single employee. And bitch about unions all you like, they arose to combat an obvious problem in how workers were treated that capitalism did nothing to solve.

Now that doesn't mean the unions aren't acting stupidly, but the solution to the problem isn't to remove unions. They aren't bad in principle, in fact they are just as fundamental to capitalism as corporations are (in some areas). Labor is a resource too, and workers have a right to try to maximize their income just like their employer does.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Everyone should go read the piece by Mitt Romney.

The big 3 pay $2000 more per car in employment expenses. That is why their cars feel cheaper, because that have to be cheaper in order to compete.

Giving them another $50 billion is not going to solve this problem.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Everyone should go read the piece by Mitt Romney.

The big 3 pay $2000 more per car in employment expenses. That is why their cars feel cheaper, because that have to be cheaper in order to compete.

Giving them another $50 billion is not going to solve this problem.

It's not like the competition is being made in Guatemala, it's being made in Germany and Japan, two countries not famous for their low cost labor. If what you say is true, that means that Detroit is somehow screwing things up big time. And while it's easy (and politically convenient) for you folks to blame the unions, they don't have the power to screw things up all on their own.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
New workers are getting paid under $25 hour including benefits.

I have to say that some of you are so fucking stupid its not even funny.

That $73 figure is arrived at by taking the total cost of all past and present workers, including all benefits, and dividing it by the number of CURRENT employees. In other words, workers at the big 3 automakers do NOT "average $73 an hour" in pay or benefits.

In any case, even if it wasn't for the 3rd grade math failure, the thesis of this article (from a completely biased "news" source), I see no argument that the cost is the main reason the automakers are having problems...other than the repeated assertions by conservatives that this "must" be the case.

When current workers force the company to pay for past workers in the form of an oppressive labor union, there's no reason not to count them.

My company offers me an excellent pension and retirement benefits with no Union.
 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,204
66
91
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Everyone should go read the piece by Mitt Romney.

The big 3 pay $2000 more per car in employment expenses. That is why their cars feel cheaper, because that have to be cheaper in order to compete.

Giving them another $50 billion is not going to solve this problem.

Define "feel cheaper."

Are you saying that foreign plastic interiors are made of higher quality plastic?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Squisher
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Everyone should go read the piece by Mitt Romney.

The big 3 pay $2000 more per car in employment expenses. That is why their cars feel cheaper, because that have to be cheaper in order to compete.

Giving them another $50 billion is not going to solve this problem.

Define "feel cheaper."

Are you saying that foreign plastic interiors are made of higher quality plastic?



Sit in a new Chevy malibu. Close the door.

Now sit in a new Camry. Close the door.

Tell me which one sounds better closing?


Not to mention the fit and finish tends to be a bit cheaper. However, they have gotten better over the years relative to the competition.
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
4,868
1
0
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
New workers are getting paid under $25 hour including benefits.

I have to say that some of you are so fucking stupid its not even funny.

That $73 figure is arrived at by taking the total cost of all past and present workers, including all benefits, and dividing it by the number of CURRENT employees. In other words, workers at the big 3 automakers do NOT "average $73 an hour" in pay or benefits.

In any case, even if it wasn't for the 3rd grade math failure, the thesis of this article (from a completely biased "news" source), I see no argument that the cost is the main reason the automakers are having problems...other than the repeated assertions by conservatives that this "must" be the case.

When current workers force the company to pay for past workers in the form of an oppressive labor union, there's no reason not to count them.

My company offers me an excellent pension and retirement benefits with no Union.

Many companies do that, now if a competitor undercuts your prices, kiss it goodbye.