Unemployment Rate Falls

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Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
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Well, every 2008 vs 2009 (total and intermodal) comparison I see indicates we're down compared to last year; charts & graphs.

At each data point on the graph, we're lower than last year. The '08 and '09 lines seem to indicate a similar pattern. I.e., traffic looks like it will fall off big time by the end of the year. I'm not sure how you can project those (typical) seasonal rises out into the future and conclude we'll be back to black numbers (year-to-year increases in traffic).

Fern

Obviously with 10 % unemployment, we are still down from last year. I'm not looking for miracles, just positive leading indicators that a recovery is underway. I wouldn't anticipate a large drop (normal) in carloadings in the last quarter, due the weak dollar allowing for favorable conditions to export raw materials.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,442
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People lopped off the unemployment roll are people who have stopped looking for work. We have to remember the unemployment rate is a barometer of the employment market. If you arent looking for a job, you arent part of that market. THat is why we can still have net job losses but the rate drops.

I'd like to know who those people are, that no longer need to put food on the table.
 

wiretap

Senior member
Sep 28, 2006
642
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I'd like to know who those people are, that no longer need to put food on the table.
You need to look into how the unemployement statistics work. While you'd like to know who those people are, they're becoming more and more prevalent. Look here in Michigan for example. Jobs just don't exist.. they simply don't exist. My mother works at a public high school, and she tells me a good percentage of parents are sending their kids to school without food or money to buy food because they're struggling to even work part time here and there just to pay for a low income apartment to remain with a shelter over their head. That has never happened before in our community. Before, it was maybe a handful.. now it is in the dozens, well up over 100 just at our high school.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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November's U-6 is reported at 17.2% - still horrible, but a slight decrease (although within the range of possible later adjustment, of course.) I think the reason we saw a loss of 11,000 new non-farm jobs but a net decrease in the rate could be as much the ever-increasing number of people eligible for work as people dropping off the rolls of the unemployed and under-employed.

This is mildly good news, although like Rudder I think a lot of these jobs are temporarily funded stimulus jobs. Still, any halt in the speed of our demise is a good thing. Cap-n-trade appears to be dead for the next couple of years, and health care ought to be decided sometime within the next three months. Assuming Obama shuts the hell up about his desire to totally revisit our systems of taxation and regulation - and his recent behavior seems to indicate he will - and nothing else big looms up to scare businesses, I think we may see some actual job gains within the next three months.

Wiretap, Michigan is fundamentally broken, sorry. I'm not sure you're going to see much improvement there anytime soon. For Michigan this started much earlier and is pretty much another Great Depression.
 
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wiretap

Senior member
Sep 28, 2006
642
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Wiretap, Michigan is fundamentally broken, sorry. I'm not sure you're going to see much improvement there anytime soon. For Michigan this started much earlier and is pretty much another Great Depression.
The entire country's economy is fundamentally broken. It begins with the federal reserve and works all the way down to bankers and derivatives. There is honestly no coming out of the debt we owe. At this point, we are just printing money.

Over 12 trillion in national debt.
Over 16 trillion in personal debt.
Over 2 trillion in monopoly money creation.
Over 106 trillion in unfunded liabilities.
Over 625 trillion in derivatives.

Yeah.... Good luck. No other country in the history of the world has come out of something like that.. let alone anything a fraction of that size. Oh, and did I mention we're still spending and wanting to increase unfunded liabilities trillions further?
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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This is pretty much unquestionably good news. The rate of job losses has fallen by 95% since the beginning of the year and it's even possible that when these numbers are revised we will see a small amount of job growth. For the situation to change this much in such a short time during what many economists considered the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression is a fabulous thing.

Come on people, you can be happy for better economic news even if it makes the Democrats look good.

People unwaveringly and blindly dedicated small gov't/conservative dogma don't seem to want to understand or acknowledge the trend of economics over the past 75-100 years and why gov't intervention has become more prominent with time both in the U.S. and abroad. And they certainly don't want to recognize its clear success (the current jobs report being undeniable success).

Eventually it'll all be pretty obvious, but it'll take another generation.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
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Way to back up your credibility with racial slurs :thumbsdown:

I'm sorry you failed English and dont understand the play on words and would rather show your ignorance by screaming RACISM.

Typical and expected.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
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Oh how I wish we saw locations on posters. I just want to know where the most inbreds are located. Which of the hick states...

These hicks out here probably have a stronger grasp of the English language than you, which is why we know "Obungo" isnt a racist reference.

Sorry your libtard education let ya down. Keep screaming racist though, every time that card is played it loses a bit of credibility.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Your're a fucking genius :eek:

Sonofabitch. I occasionally use the word "uppity" but mostly in reference to white females. Do I get a pass on that based on a technicality or what?

Man, someone really needs to start an weekly email with all the updated "slurs" and the rules that go along with their use. Just the other day I learned that white kids are allowed to use a modified version of the "N" word now (if it ends with an A then your ok, if it ends with an er then its a slur).
 

wiretap

Senior member
Sep 28, 2006
642
0
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heh, it's sad when someone doesn't have an argument, so they have to resort to calling people racists because they don't agree with a certain political ideology.

Those who voice for tolerance the loudest are themselves the most intolerant.

Apparently some people still haven't moved past using race to exploit, divide and conquer. Put the race baiting away.. we don't care what color skin someone has. We care what their intentions and actions are.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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November's U-6 is reported at 17.2%
-snip-

October's U6 was 17.5%, I cannot see it getting lower. Looks to me like it should go up, in fact.

Do you have a link to that figure? I haven't been able to find the Nov U6, and didn't think it had been released yet.

Fern
 

SacrosanctFiend

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
4,269
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There are 6 categories of unemployment - U1 through U6.

U6 was about 17.% for october, it's probably higher now.

The 10% is U3; if you've been unemployed for too long they don't count you as unemployed for U3 purposes. That's what's happened, a larger number of people no longer qualify as 'unemployed' because they've been unemployed too long (and not because they are now employed), so they are counted as a negative adjustment and they exceed the number of those new to unemplyment - so the unemployment rate goes down even though we've lost jobs.

Because we lost so many jobs earlier (and they are contiually being adjusted out of the numbners because of lenghty unemployment), we'd have to have massive lay-offs just to keep the unemployment rate unchanged. I.e., the unemployment rate is likely goin to steadily 'improve' even if we add absolutely no jobs. Welcome to government math!

Fern

The point is, in addition to lower unemployment numbers, payroll loss was essentially nil. In fact, payroll loss hasn't been this low since December 2007. Not to mention that the average workweek in manufacturing is starting to increase.

Oh, and the U-6 rate decreased from 17.5 to 17.2. You really have no idea what you are talking about.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
14
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These hicks out here probably have a stronger grasp of the English language than you, which is why we know "Obungo" isnt a racist reference.

Sorry your libtard education let ya down. Keep screaming racist though, every time that card is played it loses a bit of credibility.

Why don't you give President Obama the respect he deserves and call him by his proper name?
 

Special K

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2000
7,098
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It's an improvement, but as others have said the fact that U3 fell from 10.2% to 10% even though we experienced a net loss of jobs in November only means that more unemployed people have been dropped from the statistic.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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http://blogs.marketwatch.com/fundmastery/2009/12/04/unemployment-good-bad-ugly-news/

The not so good

Though the unemployment rate went down, the reduction was essentially a statistical change rather than a real improvement. It seems a number of people stopped looking for work and that — paradoxically — is why the unemployment rate went down. If you are unemployed, but not out looking for work, you are not counted as unemployed.


The ugly

Here is where things got ugly. The BLS report continues:

The number of long-term unemployed (those jobless for 27 weeks and over) rose by 293,000 to 5.9 million. The percentage of unemployed persons jobless for 27 weeks or more increased by 2.7 percentage points to 38.3 percent.

That’s not good. There are 5.9 million people who have been unemployed for 27 weeks or more. And, that number went up by 293,000 people in November.


The good news was the revisions made to Sept & Oct. Of course, losing a small number is better than a large number, but we're still losing. And the bulk of the gains, off-setting losses elsewhere, were in temp. workers.

Fern
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Now is this cause people got some jobs or because their unemployment benefits ran out and they can't make their claims anymore?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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The entire country's economy is fundamentally broken. It begins with the federal reserve and works all the way down to bankers and derivatives. There is honestly no coming out of the debt we owe. At this point, we are just printing money.

Over 12 trillion in national debt.
Over 16 trillion in personal debt.
Over 2 trillion in monopoly money creation.
Over 106 trillion in unfunded liabilities.
Over 625 trillion in derivatives.

Yeah.... Good luck. No other country in the history of the world has come out of something like that.. let alone anything a fraction of that size. Oh, and did I mention we're still spending and wanting to increase unfunded liabilities trillions further?
It certainly is possible that we'll find ourselves unable to escape from our debt. The only possible way out is to grow the economy, but the Fed, being private bankers, will use interest rates to hold growth down to levels that don't endanger (via inflation) the bankers' returns on long-range loans. Turning over interest rates to Congress on the other hand will just mean manipulation for political gain, leading to more severe crashes like this one. At current rates you are correct - we have zero hope of growing the economy fast enough to keep up with government spending increases, let alone actually paying off our debt. I can envision a worldwide crash into depression, probably leading to one world currency and virtual serfdom for most of us.

Some things we could do:
1. Revert to a reserve-backed currency (gold, silver, or both.)
2. Ban derivative and money market trading. Stock trading is necessary to finance corporate growth, those are not.
3. Establish relatively severe tax penalties for short term stock transactions to discourage day trading and gaming the system by driving short-term prices up and down.
4. Restore the regulations separating mortgage banks and other financial institutions that the Republicans knocked down.
5. Restore common-sense goals for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that the Democrats knocked down.
6. Pass a Constitutional Amendment giving the president a line-item veto for spending bills.
7. Pass a Constitutional Amendment requiring a balanced budget, with later adjustments made up out of the next year's budget and the only exemption being a war specifically declared by Congress (also incidentally ending these idiotic discussions about whether or not something is a war.) Maybe even establish a supplemental tax just for declared wars so that a president and Congress wanting to go to war has to fund it directly, thereby raising the bar.
8. Eliminate unions' right to strike - all such disputes to be taken up by a federal arbiter without disturbing productivity.
9. Establish a base 10% import tariff on all imported goods. The USA is by far a net importer, not a net exporter. For rogue countries or those with what we consider unfair wages (considering their overall economic conditions) or unacceptable environmental policies, slap on a surcharge import tariff.
10. Establish one retail level sales tax like the Fair Tax as the federal government's sole means of taxation, prebating each household's sales taxes at the poverty level each month (or perhaps at a higher rate; maybe 150% of poverty. But set it in stone so that politicians can no longer buy votes by promising to take from one group and give to another.) Everyone sees exactly what the tax rate is, US manufacturers have a competitive advantage within the USA, foreign competitors have an increased incentive to build products for the US market within the USA, and everyone can see the economic results of raising or lowering the tax rate. Also, this would encourage savings because they would be untaxed. How many of us are tired of the federal government taking a fourth to half of our income off the top and then chiding us for not saving enough?
11. Move programs like food stamps to the state level. $30,000 is a livable wage for a family of four in rural Tennessee without government help; it's starvation in New York City. Also, the results of each state's governance, tax rates and methods, and programs would be readily apparent, so voters (and other states) could learn and act accordingly. Let the federal government reserve dollars for federal concerns (e.g. interstates, rail projects, defense) and for helping a few critically injured states like Michigan at a time.
12. Set up federal "Manhattan projects" such as establishing recycling centers, or thermal depolymerization oil and/or energy plants, refueling/recharging stations for electric or hydrogen vehicles, biological hydrogen production, etc. as national referenda. Debate them endlessly pro and con, let the proponents propose the required level of funding (as a percent increase and duration of the sales tax), and let the public select which ones to fund and where to do a pilot project. If the pilot project succeeds, repeat it on a national level.
13. Greatly increase DOE reward projects like that for a function and affordable 900 lumen, 9W, 100 lumen/watt LED A-lamp light bulb (to replace 60W incandescents.) For example, why not a similar contest for a factory-built, site-assembled 1,200 square foot, 3 BR/2B home that uses 50% of the energy of standard stick-built, code-compliant homes and sells for 75% of the cost? Make the goal attractive enough that industry and consumers will adopt it, make the prizes large enough to offset substantial amounts of R&D and perhaps apply to the first three or four technologies meeting the goal.
14. Regulate maximum credit card (and similar) rates to prime plus four percent or similar. This would force credit card companies to issue cards to only the most financially stable people and force most of us to live within our means.
15. Ban all federal guarantees, backing, and financing of mortgages other than fixed rate 10, 15, 20, and 30 year mortgages. If you want a five year interest-only note with a balloon payment, you and your lender are on your on.

Lots of practical things can be done - this is twenty minutes of thinking and typing after all - but we are going to change our paradigm one way or another. And a great deal of the world generates large parts of its profits in the USA, so if we go down, so does much of the world.

Incidentally I knew this was coming back in '04 or '05. A friend sold thirteen rental houses just a couple months before the bottom fell out; a lot of people could see this coming. I happened to watch or hear Glenn Beck, which I seldom do (mainly because of scheduling and time), and he explained exactly how the unrealistic demands the Democrats placed (and the Republicans left) on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had created a huge boom in demand in selling houses to people who fundamentally could not afford them. He explained how this (and lax oversite of the GSEs) was also leading to rampant fraud in home appraising, and in mortgage lending companies, to meet this government-driven need. He explained how this made the mortgage companies making these loans extremely profitable and how the GSEs were transferring the risk to the federal government, how the sudden explosion of profits led to these companies going public to cash in, how these new stocks were so hot that numerous funds were buying & holding them (thus creating instruments whose value was derivative of the bubble stocks), and how this was inevitably going to crash. And he explained how and roughly when this was all going to crash (as it did), how these mortgage companies would suddenly lose the vast majority of their value, how the derivatives would lose ALL of their value, and how this was going to take down the housing and finance markets.

Glenn Beck is hardly the brightest guy (as he often says) nor the most influential; the same guys that explained this to him were no doubt explaining it to many, many other people. Yet we removed regulations set in place after the Great Depression specifically to prevent such a crash from once again taking down multiple financial sectors, and we did nothing (nor have we yet) to fix these fundamental underlying problems. This isn't rocket science; we can fix our economy long term, if we can but find the will.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
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8. Eliminate unions' right to strike - all such disputes to be taken up by a federal arbiter without disturbing productivity.
Maybe with Unions that work for public entities but not for Unions that work for private ones. The private companies have an alternative, they can fire them and replace them with non Union workers if the Union workers go on strike.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
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The entire country's economy is fundamentally broken. It begins with the federal reserve and works all the way down to bankers and derivatives. There is honestly no coming out of the debt we owe. At this point, we are just printing money.

Over 12 trillion in national debt.
Over 16 trillion in personal debt.
Over 2 trillion in monopoly money creation.
Over 106 trillion in unfunded liabilities.
Over 625 trillion in derivatives.

Yeah.... Good luck. No other country in the history of the world has come out of something like that.. let alone anything a fraction of that size. Oh, and did I mention we're still spending and wanting to increase unfunded liabilities trillions further?

Honest question... What were those numbers in 2008, 2007, 2006, etc? I'm not saying the situation isn't bad, I just find the timing of modern day 'fiscal conservatives' very convenient now that a D is in office.
 

wiretap

Senior member
Sep 28, 2006
642
0
71
werepossum,
Right on the money. Global currency is what I fear most.. it has already been unveiled and is in the pipes ready to go. It has pretty much been failure by design -- removing certain (good) regulations and replacing them with bad regulations which lead to further collapse. The global elite bankers, especially the ones running the Fed, want more and more power. They've certainly been getting it. When global currency comes, they'll be the central supplier of everyone's currency. They will dictate how economies rise and fall, what the lending rates are, what the interest rates are, what is insured and what isn't.. etc. We'll basically have lost our sovereignty. The best thing we can do is revert back to a tangible standard such as gold and start true reform of monetary policy and a true free market system which does not drive our assets and money to international shores. But, it's too late in the game and those who run the show remain in charge from administration to administration. It's truly depressing what has happened to the country.