Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Geosurface]

There is no basis or reason to speculate that Zimmerman attempted to:

- close the distance with Martin
- initiate direct interactions either verbal or physical with Martin
- had his gun out prior to shooting it
- attempted to detain Martin through words or actions

When the dispatch operator asked him if he was following Martin he said "yes." If the question had instead been "are you chasing him?" I strongly suspect Zimmerman would not have said "Yes" but rather something like "No, I'm just trying to keep him in sight" - there is a very significant and important difference between attempting to keep line of sight by repositioning yourself, after the NEN operator just instructed you twice to "let us know if he does anything else" and CHASING someone with intent to catch up to them.

There is no reason whatsoever to believe it was chasing.

The fact that he acquiesced to the NEN operator's advice that they didn't "need" him to follow, is a good reason to think he ceased doing anything like following from them on out. As in, ceased to move in the direction he believed Martin went. At the very least, if Zimmerman had accelerated to a fast walk or jog (remember, on the call at this time we hear no foot falls, and I have never agreed that we hear him winded... we just don't. We hear the wind hitting the receiver, because now he's out of his car and not in it... we MIGHT hear a slight exertion in his voice... but nothing that would imply to me more than a fast walk)

but if he did accelerate... I think it's safe to say after the NEN operator said that, and he said "okay" to it, that he slowed back to a regular walk. Maybe even stopped in that location for a while. REMEMBER, from the point where he says "he ran" throughout the rest of the call, which lasts another couple of minutes, Zimmerman never again has a direct visual on Martin. He never again knows where Martin is at.

He claims that he walked eastward for an address (maybe also with the hope of seeing Martin down the street leaving the community) and then turned back around westward to return to his car, when Martin reappeared from the south and attacked him. This is corroborated by where his car keys were found, just south of the "T" and on the side closer to his car. I do not believe it is likely that these would have fallen from his pocket based on the physical interactions he describes happening there. I believe he had them in his hand, at the ready, to "bloop bloop" open his car once in range with the radio control unlock on it. This is why they fell there.

Those who don't believe the physical altercation started at the "T" have no explanation for why his car keys would be on the ground there. But it makes perfect sense if he was attacked there with them in his hand in anticipation of arrival at his vehicle.

No witnesses saw his gun drawn, Trayvon didn't yell "He's got a gun!" at any time that anyone heard, including John who it would've made all the sense in the world to yell that to if Trayvon knew about it and perceived himself as the person being attacked in some way...

face it, the media fucked this up in the worst possible way and you are just laboring under an outdated version of the narrative, and I just uploaded the latest patch into your fuckin' brain. BOOM! You're welcome.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

It is legal to attack a man if he is dressed as a zombie version of Muhammad.




No, the neighborhood watch keeping an eye on (aka watching) what a non-resident is doing in the neighborhood is not a valid reason to break the nose of the neighborhood watch, you idiot.

I think this is the main issue with the pro-trayvon side... They seem to feel like someone 'following/disrespecting' them is automatic justification for viciously beating someone's face. I guess this is how it works in high school when you're protected by teachers, but in the real world you're putting your life on the line by doing so.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

He killed someone, and he did not receive any life threatening injuries himself.

The burden of proof is Zimmerman, he followed an ultimately shot a kid.

You can play the what if game all day, but the fact remains that the whole incident would not have happened if Zimmerman hadn't chased Martin.

What exactly do you suppose this armed man intended to do once he caught up to him?
It is reasonable to assume he intended to detain Martin until the cops arrived. You can bet this will be a line of questioning however.

All we know is that it resulted in a physical confrontation. Then he shot an unarmed child.

Here's what the law says about the burden of proof.


http://frederickleatherman.wordpres...ns-for-second-degree-murder-and-self-defense/

You are in an upper level graduate school course so you know this part by heart:


The defendant, George Zimmerman, is presumed innocent and remains innocent unless the jury unanimously finds him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.


The defendant has no burden to produce any evidence or to testify in this case. He has a constitutional right to not testify and the jury may not assume anything regarding his silence.


The State has the burden of proving each element of the crime charged beyond a reasonable doubt.


Since the defendant admits killing Trayvon Martin, but claims he was legally justified to do so in self-defense, the State must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not kill Trayvon Martin in self-defense.

 

[Agent11]

The events leading up to the shooting play a large part as well. And they do not help Zimmerman at all.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The events leading up to the shooting play a large part as well. And they do not help Zimmerman at all.

What events?

One of the state's lead investigators has already testified that they have no evidence that GZ continued to follow TM nor any evidence that shows GZ confronted TM.

 

[Agent11]

Zimmerman got out of his truck and chased him. Thats proof right there.

The police asked zimmerman to wait by the mail boxes, he said' ill call you and tell you where I am' because he was chasing him.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Zimmerman got out of his truck and chased him. Thats proof right there.

Obviously it's not as the lead investigator for the State's attorney testified during the first bond hearing that they have no evidence that GZ continued to follow TM nor any evidence that shows GZ confronted TM.

The police asked zimmerman to wait by the mail boxes, he said' ill call you and tell you where I am' because he was chasing him.

The dispatcher never told GZ to wait by the mailboxes. They asked was he following TM and when GZ answered yes, they told him "We don't need you to do that". There's no proof/evidence that GZ continued to follow much less chase TM.

 

[Agent11]

Obviously it's not as the lead investigator for the State's attorney testified during the first bond hearing that they have no evidence that GZ continued to follow TM nor any evidence that shows GZ confronted TM.



The dispatcher never told GZ to wait by the mailboxes. They asked was he following TM and when GZ answered yes, they told him "We don't need you to do that". There's no proof/evidence that GZ continued to follow much less chase TM.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...e-Zimmerman-911-call-reporting-Trayvon-Martin

Listen to this. Then say oops.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...e-Zimmerman-911-call-reporting-Trayvon-Martin

Listen to this. Then say oops.

Read this and show me where the dispatcher told him to wait by the mailboxes.

http://www.examiner.com/article/george-zimmerman-s-911-call-transcribed

 

[Agent11]

I trust my own ears rather than any transcript thank you very much. They clearly tell him to wait by the mail boxes.

 

[Tom]

No, he didn't significantly change his story/statement. He did back off on the MMA style punches and that GZ was the one screaming.

He firmly stands by the point that TM was on top of GZ possibly throwing punches or restraining GZ. He also stated that GZ was clearly struggling to get free. As far as the screaming he said it made more sense that the person who was on the bottom and was struggling to get free would be the one screaming for help.

None the less he will be a good witness for the defense as he saw more of the altercation than any other witness and the fact another witness backs up his seeing TM on top of GZ.

I noticed that you chose to ignore what druidx posted on the same subject.

all of that makes no difference.

In a trial, if he made statements that contradict each other about one thing, it means EVERYTHING he says is questionable. And in this case, his initial exaggeration, or lie, seems tailored to help Zimmerman. Which raises the question of whether or not the part he is sticking to is also to help Zimmerman, or just to tell the truth.

Seen in that light, it doesn't help Zimmerman.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I trust my own ears rather than any transcript thank you very much.

No problem, it doesn't matter as the there's no evidence that GZ continued to follow after the dispatcher told them "They didn't need him to do that".

 

[Londo_Jowo]

all of that makes no difference.

In a trial, if he made statements that contradict each other about one thing, it means EVERYTHING he says is questionable. And in this case, his initial exaggeration, or lie, seems tailored to help Zimmerman. Which raises the question of whether or not the part he is sticking to is also to help Zimmerman, or just to tell the truth.

Seen in that light, it doesn't help Zimmerman.

So will losing the prosecution key witness not hurt them? The defense can show she was willing to lie to help the case against GZ.

 

[Agent11]

No problem, it doesn't matter as the there's no evidence that GZ continued to follow after the dispatcher told them "They didn't need him to do that".

Right. So Martin ran away hid in a tree and as Zimmerman walked back to his truck Martin pounced on Zimmerman like a panther and proceeded to maul him. At which point Zimmerman was forced to pull his weapon and shoot Martin.

Thats much more plausible.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Right. So Martin ran away hid in a tree and as Zimmerman walked back to his truck Martin pounced on Zimmerman like a panther and proceeded to maul him. At which point Zimmerman was forced to pull his weapon and shoot Martin.

Thats much more plausible.

The evidence/witness statements tends to corroborate this rather than refute it.

 

[OCNewbie]

I trust my own ears rather than any transcript thank you very much. They clearly tell him to wait by the mail boxes.

The dispatcher asked him if he wanted to meet them by the mailboxes, as GZ could not provide an address to the dispatcher for his current location. When GZ said "Actually, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?" this was the dispatcher's response: "Ok. Yeah, that's no problem." The dispatcher didn't seem to have an issue with it. GZ says that this is when he went to look for an address on Retreat View Circle (on the east/far side of the sidewalk T), so when the police called him, he could "tell them where he's at", which would have been a better address than the mailboxes.

 

[airdata]

You're correct. Zimmerman had every right to be where he was without being attacked.

Martin viciously attacks, brutally assaults zimmerman causing multiple blunt force head injuries and broken nose, then mounts while his victim screams for his life ignoring pleas from a witness to STOP but yet continues the beating. Zimmerman's only choice to save his life from a ruthless felony assault and battery (a forcible felony by definition) is to shoot him.

You simply cannot do that, if you put somebody in that great fear of their life you may get lawfully dead.

Do you not realize you hurt your reputation and stance on this topic when you post un verified things as being fact? There's no evidence showing that Trayvon went out of his way to assault Zimmerman. Evidence shows that Zimmerman directly provoked Trayvon by following after him.

You talk as if Trayvon broke into Zimmerman's home and assaulted him. That didn't happen. He also didn't walk up to Zimmerman's car and pull a reginald denny on hi... that's not what happened.

Trayvon would have been home drinking his watermelon iced tea and eating skittles if Zimmerman didn't chase after him w\ the pre concieved notion that he was a fucking punk or that he was one of those assholes that always gets away.


Zimmerman incriminates himself on tape. Everybody has heard it. Zimmerman had malice for Trayvon before he had done ANYTHING that could be considering wrong. Zimmerman chased after him with some belief that he was a good guy and trayvon a bad guy when fact of the matter is that Trayvon was simply walking home from 711.

So please. If you want to be taken seriously, stop saying things like " Trayvon brutally assaulted.. yada yada." without realizing the fact that we have zimmerman recorded on tape referring to trayvon as an asshole and a fucking punk at a time where he'd witnessed him do nothing more than walk on a sidewalk.

That sir is more evidence than Zimmerman has provided to his defense.

 

[OCNewbie]

Right. So Martin ran away hid in a tree and as Zimmerman walked back to his truck Martin pounced on Zimmerman like a panther and proceeded to maul him. At which point Zimmerman was forced to pull his weapon and shoot Martin.

Thats much more plausible.

Nobody is saying that happened. When you reduce a scenario, that is alternative to your belief of what happened, to a parody, of course it's going to sound ridiculous. I think it's ridiculous too.

 

[JKing106]

Give us some more of your "jive" talk Spidey. You were on a hate roll last night, son. It looks like the mods are never going to take action against you, so let it all out. It's amusing, in a weird sort of way, that you think 17 year old black males in 2012 talk like extras from a 1970's Dolemite movie. No wonder you're so terrified of them, you don't know any, judging from the way you think they speak.

P.S. Some of your brothers in the movement got arrested for murder at Fort Stewart. Might wanna keep a lid on the n****r hatin' for while 'til the heat lows over.

 

[Tom]

What events?

One of the state's lead investigators has already testified that they have no evidence that GZ continued to follow TM nor any evidence that shows GZ confronted TM.

That isn't accurate. He testified there's evidence of both.

He also testified there's evidence Zimmerman's statement was not true, but I guess since you don't like that part of his testiomony, you ignore it.

 

[TerryMathews]

Zimmerman incriminates himself on tape. Everybody has heard it. Zimmerman had malice for Trayvon before he had done ANYTHING that could be considering wrong. Zimmerman chased after him with some belief that he was a good guy and trayvon a bad guy when fact of the matter is that Trayvon was simply walking home from 711.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

What crime do you allege we hear on the tape?

 

[spidey07]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

What crime do you allege we hear on the tape?

He called the little 12 year old cherub a name.

 

[Tom]

So will losing the prosecution key witness not hurt them? The defense can show she was willing to lie to help the case against GZ.

First of all, I don't know that she is "the" key witness, or that she'll even be a witness as to facts.

If she does testify, I presume it will be that she was on the phone with Martin, and the length of the call, both most likely easily substantiated by phone records.

And that Martin said he was being followed, also pretty easily substantiated by Zimmerman's own phone call to the police.

What is it you think she would "lie" about ? And how can the defense show what you say about her ? If you think they can use Twitter or Facebook, or even text messages, there's no way to establish those were her words.

 

[spidey07]

Do you not realize you hurt your reputation and stance on this topic when you post un verified things as being fact? There's no evidence showing that Trayvon went out of his way to assault Zimmerman. Evidence shows that Zimmerman directly provoked Trayvon by following after him.

You talk as if Trayvon broke into Zimmerman's home and assaulted him. That didn't happen. He also didn't walk up to Zimmerman's car and pull a reginald denny on hi... that's not what happened.

Trayvon would have been home drinking his watermelon iced tea and eating skittles if Zimmerman didn't chase after him w\ the pre concieved notion that he was a fucking punk or that he was one of those assholes that always gets away.


Zimmerman incriminates himself on tape. Everybody has heard it. Zimmerman had malice for Trayvon before he had done ANYTHING that could be considering wrong. Zimmerman chased after him with some belief that he was a good guy and trayvon a bad guy when fact of the matter is that Trayvon was simply walking home from 711.

So please. If you want to be taken seriously, stop saying things like " Trayvon brutally assaulted.. yada yada." without realizing the fact that we have zimmerman recorded on tape referring to trayvon as an asshole and a fucking punk at a time where he'd witnessed him do nothing more than walk on a sidewalk.

That sir is more evidence than Zimmerman has provided to his defense.

WHAT?

Then HOW did zimmerman get his multiple head injuries including lacerations, abrasions and a broken nose? Do you HONESTLY believe that martin doing that is legal somehow? It's not, it's a felony. A forcible one, which permits zimmerman to legally shoot him.

This all comes down to the team skittles folks believing that the beat down was deserved and lawful. It's insanity. Calling somebody an asshole or punk isn't a crime, never will be.

 

[Tom]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

What crime do you allege we hear on the tape?

expressing anger, or hostile intent, or desire to keep someone from getting away with something, towards a person that is subsequently shot to death, is incriminating.

in a common sense world, it also would raise serious questions about a claim of self-defense.