Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[classy]

This is no different than you calling 911 over someone who is bleeding and not breathing and asking if you need to give them mouth to mouth resuscitation.

They will tell you that you "don't need to do that", as liability-wise that's what they do to protect the department. It is ultimately up to you if you want to be a good citizen, and 'dispatch' will not TELL you to do this.


Clearly you are the type to where it's best to not get involved... Let the thug steal, let the person die, since it's not legally required to help anyone in need of assistance. Just stay in the basement corner, that's the safest way for everybody except the person in need.

All your hypotheticals is not going to change the fact 911 gave him the advice not to follow, but he did anyway.

 

[LTC8K6]

Tm 5'11 158
Zimm 5'10 200

You might want to rethink your argument. But you won't since facts don't seem to stop most of you Zimmrons anyhow.

Zimmerman sure has grown since 2/26.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

All your hypotheticals is not going to change the fact 911 gave him the advice not to follow, but he did anyway.

And all of your personal feelings won't change the fact that zimmerman wasn't required to any way to follow the advice, nor is there any evidence that he didn't follow the advice.

 

[LTC8K6]

All your hypotheticals is not going to change the fact 911 gave him the advice not to follow, but he did anyway.

I think it's crystal clear that GZ did not follow TM very far if at all.

TM has just run out of sight from GZ. GZ cannot even see TM at the time the dispatcher says he doesn't need to follow TM. TM has run off and it's a few seconds before GZ gets out of his truck. TM is nowhere in sight. GZ starts to run and see where TM went, but stops quickly and says "Okay" to the dispatcher. GZ then walks along to see if he can see where TM went, or catch sight of TM.

 

[PokerGuy]

Not hilarious, just reasonable. He should have taken his *ss whooping and gone home w\ his tail between his legs.

Yeah, because when someone is beating you, including beating your head on the concrete, you can rest assured that they won't seriously injure or kill you. Clearly the best answer is not to defend yourself by any means needed, you should just let the assailant continue.

What a stupid line of reasoning.

 

[PokerGuy]

All your hypotheticals is not going to change the fact 911 gave him the advice not to follow, but he did anyway.

This is not difficult to understand: he had no obligation to.

 

[Pens1566]

There is tons of evidence which shows trayvon's character. I mean, he was in the middle of a 14 day out of school suspension. Within weeks before this incident he was caught with thousands of dollars in jewelry along with burglary tools. He has a history of being violent online, recording the school's street fights, and on and on and on.. His parents had to send him away because he was getting into too much trouble down in miami.

No jury of all 12 is going to think this little thug was just 100% skipping down the sidewalk with skittles and tea, particularly with these graphic pictures of zimmerman's wounds.

I fully expect that by the time this case concludes you will have stretched your "facts" to Martin having been expelled from school, that the jewelry included the hope diamond, and that he raped and murdered the bus driver. Please don't disappoint us.

 

[EagleKeeper]

OH OH OH...

Because he'd already called the police. At that point he had no business doing anything else other than either A) going about HIS business. Or B) Waiting for police to arrive.

Since when is it no longer his business? Observe and report; that is what he attempted to do.

Either of your options would have resulted in the Police not find Zimmerman's suspicious kid. Who knows how long they would take to arrive.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Rofl right..

If it makes you feel better, my issues with making trayvon out to be a thug were directly related to the "100% trayvon did no wrongers" insistent he was a perfect angel.

For the last 3 months that side has done nothing but try to make this little hoodlum out to be a saint. They have consistently refused to look at any applicable negative evidence and misinterpreted the things they would accept as fact. They have consisntly attempted to make it out as though his thuggsih activities have no bearing on the case.


Now with the gas station videos and pics of zimmerman's severe wounds it's blatantly clear that trayvon was a little thug punk and I don't feel the need to make it so obvious.


He's a little thug, a thief, and a criminal, and now there's enough evidence to make that ponderously clear.

Particularly when, as you have, people fabricate negative things about Mr. Martin out of thin air and/or based on little or no evidence.

I don't think you know what "ponderous" means.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Nothing is 100% fool proof, but dispatch's instructions in this instance was 100% correct. If the advice had been heeded, none of this would have happened.

20/20 hindsight.

Once has to look at the facts as they were available at the time.

Not the information that became available was a result of other investigations

 

[soundforbjt]

Even trayvon's family said he was 6'2-6'3. The only place that says 5'11 is the coroner's report which likely a typo.

It's extremely obvious from his family and school pics, and the gas station video, that trayvon was at least 6'1 6'2.

Still spreading BS. The coroners report is the truth. 5'11". Sorry that doesn't work for your large, scary, thug profile so you have to speculate a typo? So was the typo that TM was 6'11" or 5'1"? Doubtful he got both numbers wrong.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Still spreading BS. The coroners report is the truth. 5'11". Sorry that doesn't work for your large, scary, thug profile so you have to speculate a typo? So was the typo that TM was 6'11" or 5'1"? Doubtful he got both numbers wrong.

The ME report actually reports his height as 71 inches. It would seem strange to have inadvertently typed that rather than, say, 75 inches, but in SA's world, all "evidence" which points to Mr. Martin as a hulking "thug" is credible and can be accepted at face value (and even expanded upon through conjecture), whereas anything that tends to cast any doubt about that proposition is categorically false.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Particularly when, as you have, people fabricate negative things about Mr. Martin out of thin air and/or based on little or no evidence.

I don't think you know what "ponderous" means.

Your bias shows in how you continually try to act like trayvon was an angel while ignoring all the people who have flat-out thrown zimmerman under the bus with no evidence or facts.

Since week one you have been here to try and paint these very serious and current problems that trayvon was going through as if they're nothing. I have not fabricated a thing, as evidence and more details have come out I have stopped saying them as fact (such as trayvon's neck tattoos and etc). My opinion, which is based on fact, is that trayvon was a little punk thug. It's pretty much impossible to logically argue that he was anything else.



These negative choices are decisions that trayvon made. He chose to deal drugs to his fellow high schoolers, he chose to follow culture which promotes violence (thug life 4eva and all of his other online social trash). I'm not going to go over it all again with you, I think it's fairly well proven that trayvon was a little criminal thug who was in the process of starting his life of crime.


Good or bad is not my problem, I interpret his actions logically and without emotion. Trayvon's choices but him squarely in his own grave, and I think it's disgusting how you want to pass that blame on to someone else.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

The ME report actually reports his height as 71 inches. It would seem strange to have inadvertently typed that rather than, say, 75 inches, but in SA's world, all "evidence" which points to Mr. Martin as a hulking "thug" is credible and can be accepted at face value (and even expanded upon through conjecture), whereas anything that tends to cast any doubt about that proposition is categorically false.

Like I asked the last time you sleuths tried to crack the case based on his height... So what?

Who cares if trayvon was 5'11, 5'2, 6'6, it doesn't matter in the least. He attacked zimmerman, beat him within minutes of his life, literally held his life in his heads as he repeatedly bashed his skull on the ground... The injuries absolutely prove that zimmerman didn't assault trayvon in any way, nor did he 'forcefully' detain him.


What is the point of you guys continually pointing out the 5'11 vs 6'3....?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Your bias shows in how you continually try to act like trayvon was an angel while ignoring all the people who have flat-out thrown zimmerman under the bus with no evidence or facts.

Since week one you have been here to try and paint these very serious and current problems that trayvon was going through as if they're nothing. I have not fabricated a thing, as evidence and more details have come out I have stopped saying them as fact (such as trayvon's neck tattoos and etc). My opinion, which is based on fact, is that trayvon was a little punk thug. It's pretty much impossible to logically argue that he was anything else.



These negative choices are decisions that trayvon made. He chose to deal drugs to his fellow high schoolers, he chose to follow culture which promotes violence (thug life 4eva and all of his other online social trash). I'm not going to go over it all again with you, I think it's fairly well proven that trayvon was a little criminal thug who was in the process of starting his life of crime.


Good or bad is not my problem, I interpret his actions logically and without emotion. Trayvon's choices but him squarely in his own grave, and I think it's disgusting how you want to pass that blame on to someone else.

I have never "tried to act like [Mr. Martin] was an angel." I have merely attempted to fend off your character assassination because I think it's cruel, gratuitous and disrespectful, and pointed out your fabrications because, well, they're fabrications, and if nobody questions the "thousands of dollars worth of jewelry" that you have completely made up, it becomes a "fact" that is accepted by all, and thus shifts the discussion based on a false premise. I have said repeatedly that I think the evidence against Mr. Zimmerman is probably insufficient to secure a conviction, but I don't need to fabricate "evidence" against Mr. Martin to reach that conclusion.

I do not agree - not one bit - that there is clear evidence to establish that Mr. Martin was a "thug" or that his own lifestyle choices had one iota to do with his death. NONE of the "evidence" you are relying on will be admissible at trial, any more than Mr. Zimmerman's own history of alleged violence will be admissible. In both cases, that is because the evidence is equivocal and of questionable relevance to any disputed fact.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Like I asked the last time you sleuths tried to crack the case based on his height... So what?

Who cares if trayvon was 5'11, 5'2, 6'6, it doesn't matter in the least. He attacked zimmerman, beat him within minutes of his life, literally held his life in his heads as he repeatedly bashed his skull on the ground... The injuries absolutely prove that zimmerman didn't assault trayvon in any way, nor did he 'forcefully' detain him.


What is the point of you guys continually pointing out the 5'11 vs 6'3....?

To me it's largely relevant as an illustration of the lengths you will go to to bolster your own version of events and ignore alternative explanations. It is the pro-Zimmerman voices (including yours) who have made a big deal about Mr. Martin's height, not those defending Mr. Martin.


(weird, redundant spacing to put you at ease)


You hyperbolic description of the event is . . . hyperbolic. Such a drama queen!

 

[soundforbjt]

Like I asked the last time you sleuths tried to crack the case based on his height... So what?

Who cares if trayvon was 5'11, 5'2, 6'6, it doesn't matter in the least. He attacked zimmerman, beat him within minutes of his life, literally held his life in his heads as he repeatedly bashed his skull on the ground... The injuries absolutely prove that zimmerman didn't assault trayvon in any way, nor did he 'forcefully' detain him.


What is the point of you guys continually pointing out the 5'11 vs 6'3....?

So bad they rushed him to the hospital for observation and stitches? Nope. Not even a butterfly bandage. Bleeding so profusely that his clothes were drenched in his own blood? Nope. Not a easily visible spot.

 

[Geosurface]

Changing testimonies

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent


I think the the truth is slowly coming together.

So we're getting closer to the truth the further we get from the actual events? Is that how peoples' memories typically work in your experience, classy? They improve with time? They improve the more media attention a case gets?

Let's face it, if this situation was reversed and Trayvon had survived, but the witnesses were slowly changing their story to be less sure about GZ on top of TM... less sure GZ was beating TM up... you would be saying exactly the opposite and we both know it. You'd be saying the logical thing, that their memories were being tainted by media coverage and passage of time.

You need look no further than Mary Cutcher's journey of self-discovery during this whole case for one of the best examples of media tainting someone's perceptions you're ever likely to find. Here is a woman who initially refused to speak with police, when she did she said she'd seen nothing, she was adamant that there was no physical fight going on, no calls for "help", no words spoken and that what she had heard was a "little boy whining" shortly after which, the 911 tapes were released, which completely blew most or all of that out of the water.

When people start to get a whiff of that media attention... those interview fees... and maybe the feeling that they can play an important part in justice for a cute lil' boy gunned down just for being black... wow, I could be like, right up there with MLK! Yea, Mary Cutcher... up in lights, nice ring to it. There were a lot of incentives, some noble, some not, for her to do what she did. A pure desire to represent the facts of the situation, with no embellishment or conjecture, was nowhere on that list and not even on her radar.

The witness John has remained consistent on the fact that Trayvon was on top of GZ... he started to back down on his certainty about who was screaming and whether MMA style blows were being landed, for I believe a couple of reasons. One reason is legitimate, he probably actually couldn't see things all that clearly in terms of mouths moving, or what exactly arms were doing. The less legit reason for him to back down on what he said, a bit, is the media coverage. When you saw something somewhat unclearly, and then you're fed a steady diet of pictures of Trayvon when he's 12, and big fat GZ from 2005 in what looks like (but wasn't) prison orange... and you're hearing from all the news networks that this was racial profiling, Trayvon was hunted down like a dog in the street, etc... and even the president is sympathizing with Trayvon... you're going to start to doubt yourself. You're going to feel an enormous pressure to not be the one guy out there whose testimony is saying the exact opposite of what everyone seems to have decided.

It's a fucked up, media circus all around. It's a travesty of justice or truth. But even in the face of all this, he never wavered about who was on top, and who was on bottom. Between that, and the information we now have about GZ's injuries, and TM's injuries (or lack thereof, besides knuckle would from inflicting GZ's injuries) any reasonable person should at this point be pretty clear on who was beating up whom, and who was screaming.

There are only a couple of reasons for a person to deny these obvious conclusions. One is falling prey to that same media narrative and not wanting to let go of it. Another is siding with the black person in any controversial situation regardless of any facts or other considerations. This was most dramatically demonstrated by the OJ trial and reaction to the verdict. I can't know for certain whether you are doing this in this case, siding with Trayvon at all costs because of sharing a skin color with him... but I've got to say it looks a hell of a lot like it. Then again, maybe not, there are plenty of white people who are just as stubbornly clinging to this narrative, so who knows.

One thing I do know is, if the devil appeared and asked me to bet my left leg that it was GZ screaming, and my right leg that Trayvon was taller than 5'11", I'd walk out of here just fine.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

I have never "tried to act like [Mr. Martin] was an angel." I have merely attempted to fend off your character assassination because I think it's cruel, gratuitous and disrespectful, and pointed out your fabrications because, well, they're fabrications. I have said repeatedly that I think the evidence against Mr. Zimmerman is probably insufficient to secure a conviction, but I don't need to fabricate "evidence" against Mr. Martin to reach that conclusion.

I do not agree - not one bit - that there is clear evidence to establish that Mr. Martin was a "thug" or that his own lifestyle choices had one iota to do with his death. NONE of the "evidence" you are relying on will be admissible at trial, any more than Mr. Zimmerman's own history of alleged violence will be admissible. In both cases, that is because the evidence is equivocal and of questionable relevance to any disputed fact.

Yet you have NO problem with the 'character assassination' of an innocent man who was out to help his community and ended up getting viciously attacked by a little punk hoodlum.

You have NO problem ignoring all of the people who continually falsified information in an attempt to make zimmerman out to be a hulking racist who picked trayvon purely due to race and 'cold blood murdered him'.


You are, for some reason, very clearly biased and 'wanting' for trayvon to have had done no wrong. You did not step up to defend zimmerman in any way, up until about a week ago when you finally admitted that there is not enough evidence to convict him.

So, of course you don't like that trayvon was a thug. Of course you 'feel' like it is character assasination. Perhaps trayvon shouldn't have had possesion of thousands of dollars in jewelry and burglary equipment, and painted himself via his online persona to be a little thug. Those are his choices, and I will continue to judge him based on how he portrayed himself and acted which is of a little punk thug, a criminal and thief.


The bottom line is that there's no exact definition of a thug or criminal, but he certainly fits my definition of one.

Clearly you are ok with someone going through all of these issues and still be a pure innocent little angel. Personally, I can't stand thieves and people who deal in stolen property, who attack innocent people, who have a propensity for violence and are proud of "thug life 4eva".


My opinion is that trayvon was a little thug, and him being painted as a pure and innocent little angel will result in me brutally pointing him out for exactly what he is based on the choices he made.

 

[emperus]

LOL at you even trying to act like anything you post is in any way factual.


Look at the gaping head wounds, the finger and thumb marks on zimmerman's face where trayvon quite literally held his life in his hands as he repeatedly bashed his skull against the cement.

The fact is, zimmerman did good by not getting into a fist fight with trayvon.


Once you're out of high school these arguments about physical size really don't matter much. The bottom line is that if you brutally assault someone they don't have to 'fist fight' with you, they can and should shoot you.


It's hilarious how you guys spin this as if zimmerman really should've duked it out with trayvon for awhile before 'truly' defending himself.

1.) Show me where you got the thumb marks on his face were from TM holding his head and bashing his head. I just want to see what doctor or forensic sccientist who laims the marks are consistant with what you are saying.

2.) I am out of highschool and being so at my age and responsibilites, I don't relish fighting or even putting myself in a situation where I would have to fight. So, if I were Zimm I would have stayed in my car, and if for some odd reason I lost my mind I would leave my card with my gun in hand at the ready if I were to chase/follow a suspected criminal. And I'm far from a punk. And we already know Zimm was a coward.

 

[emperus]

You know as I was typing ta response, I recalled a situation that happened years back.

I was in front of my apartement trying to fix a fuse problem in my car, so had the master fused pulled. I lived in a great neighborhood so left the keys in the ignition as I went upstairs to get something from my apartment. I happened to pass a window and saw a young kid roughly Trayvon's age attempting to get in my car. I flew down the stairs as the kid was attempting to start it up but couldn't since the fuse was out. I grabbed him with one hand and called the police on my cellphone with the other as he pleaded not to.

When the police arrived I asked them to not press charges blah blah blah. Anyhow, the cop looked over at him, and said "look at that guy, you're lucky he called me."


The moral of this story is that back then I was 5'11 225 pounds with about 5% body fat. I probbaly benched (set of 10, 4 sets) 225. So, I was a big guy who thought I could handle pretty much anybody. I believe much like Zimm felt that night with his gun. So, yes, I do believe Zimm tried to stop TM, since he suspected TM was a kid, he was armed and culd restrain him, much like I did years back. My case was different as the kid knew he was doing something wrong and TM probably thought Zimm was out to do him physical harm.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Yet you have NO problem with the 'character assassination' of an innocent man who was out to help his community and ended up getting viciously attacked by a little punk hoodlum.

You have NO problem ignoring all of the people who continually falsified information in an attempt to make zimmerman out to be a hulking racist who picked trayvon purely due to race and 'cold blood murdered him'.


You are, for some reason, very clearly biased and 'wanting' for trayvon to have had done no wrong. You did not step up to defend zimmerman in any way, up until about a week ago when you finally admitted that there is not enough evidence to convict him.

So, of course you don't like that trayvon was a thug. Of course you 'feel' like it is character assasination. Perhaps trayvon shouldn't have had possesion of thousands of dollars in jewelry and burglary equipment, and painted himself via his online persona to be a little thug. Those are his choices, and I will continue to judge him based on how he portrayed himself and acted which is of a little punk thug, a criminal and thief.


The bottom line is that there's no exact definition of a thug or criminal, but he certainly fits my definition of one.

Clearly you are ok with someone going through all of these issues and still be a pure innocent little angel. Personally, I can't stand thieves and people who deal in stolen property, who attack innocent people, who have a propensity for violence and are proud of "thug life 4eva".


My opinion is that trayvon was a little thug, and him being painted as a pure and innocent little angel will result in me brutally pointing him out for exactly what he is based on the choices he made.

Keep on repeating this lie and I will keep on pointing out that you're a liar.

The thing is this, for me:

I don't believe Mr. Zimmerman acted out of any racial animus. I have been saying that from the beginning here, and you will find no posts in which I have called him a "hulking racist" or anything similar. I do think he acted overzealously, and that his desire to act as law enforcement in this situation led to the death of a teenager. I have a problem with that. Generally speaking, when one person causes the death of another, I think there need to be consequences.

I think it's appropriate that this case be tried. The trial process is a fact-finding one, and at this point I don't think there is sufficient, clear evidence to discern one way or the other what happened. I am reticent about just accepting Mr. Zimmerman's version of events as true, if only because we have no opportunity to hear from the other person involved.

I think Mr. Zimmerman has enough defenders - you and a host of other people of various intellectual capacities are acting in that stead. You are perhaps the most unyielding in your willingness to fabricate "evidence" against Mr. Martin, and to call him a "thug," but in any case you have many cohorts here taking up defense of Mr. Zimmerman.

When it comes to Trayvon Martin, what I see is a kid with a lot of growing up to do, and who should have had that opportunity. I don't think he was an angel, nor do I think he was a thug. Based on what we have seen of his parents, his brother and his friends, I would suspect he was a bright kid who would have come through it all OK.

I think it's disgusting that your feelings about this case have led you down the path of tearing apart Mr. Martin's character and fabricating irrelevant and inadmissible "evidence" about him in order to bolster your view that Mr. Zimmerman is innocent. I don't know what you're like in your day-to-day existence, but on this topic you have shown yourself as both callous and dishonest.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

TM committing assault and battery against GZ is what ultimately resulted in his death not the fact GZ exited his car nor the fact he was legally carrying concealed.

 

[waggy]

only people bringing it up are those correcting you when you keep saying he was 6'3.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

You know as I was typing ta response, I recalled a situation that happened years back.

I was in front of my apartement trying to fix a fuse problem in my car, so had the master fused pulled. I lived in a great neighborhood so left the keys in the ignition as I went upstairs to get something from my apartment. I happened to pass a window and saw a young kid roughly Trayvon's age attempting to get in my car. I flew down the stairs as the kid was attempting to start it up but couldn't since the fuse was out. I grabbed him with one hand and called the police on my cellphone with the other as he pleaded not to.

When the police arrived I asked them to not press charges blah blah blah. Anyhow, the cop looked over at him, and said "look at that guy, you're lucky he called me."


The moral of this story is that back then I was 5'11 225 pounds with about 5% body fat. I probbaly benched (set of 10, 4 sets) 225. So, I was a big guy who thought I could handle pretty much anybody. I believe much like Zimm felt that night with his gun. So, yes, I do believe Zimm tried to stop TM, since he suspected TM was a kid, he was armed and culd restrain him, much like I did years back. My case was different as the kid knew he was doing something wrong and TM probably thought Zimm was out to do him physical harm.

Wow so you're ok with you forcefully detaining someone who possibly just thought your car was theirs, yet you have major issues with zimmerman keeping an eye on trayvon from a distance.


In your made-up story you did far worse than zimmerman did.