Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Svnla]

<snip>

He certainly did not turn out to be the all A 12 year old angelical honor student we were led to believe.

From the link that OCNewbie provided earlier

"We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information" <Tracy Martin, the dad>

 

[rchiu]

LOL

Yeah, that's certainly life threatening.....

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Yeah, that's certainly life threatening.....

As you've been told, numerous times, when you're attacked you don't have to (and shouldn't) wait for the precise moment when your injuries have become life-threatening before defending yourself.

You can't call 'time out' one punch before being unconscious before defending yourself.


Stop trying to get everyone else's emotions all riled up.

 

[Icepick]

Originally Posted by SpatiallyAware
The "Teen" who is 6'3 (or 6'0? Has that been confirmed) attacked zimmerman.

I don't care if you're holding rainbows and have mini unicorns in your pocket.. If you jump someone, beat their head into a sidewalk, and then get shot... that's on you.

As it stands right now, zimmerman has done nothing criminal whatsoever. It's not illegal to ask some thug what he's doing in your neighborhood.

Originally Posted by Icepick
You come off as a person who is overcome with emotion and who is filled with hatred. You don't know that Zimmerman was "jumped" and Treyvon was not a "thug." I don't see any evidence of "thuggery" in the reported victim's (Treyvon) actions.

Aside from the fact that I didn't say that was what trayvon did and you're twisting my words...

As we know based only on evidence and facts we know, without any assumptions or conjecture (and yes, trayvon is not here to tell his side, which is unfortunate) zimmerman was jumped, attacked, head beaten on sidewalk, and then shot trayvon in self defense.

I am not saying that is what happened, only that this is the only conclusion based on the evidence we have.

I'm definitely not overcome with emotion or hatred, read my posts throughout this thread. I have called for both sides to look at the facts presented to us with an open mind and without emotion.

In my opinion, trayvon definitely did associate with the thug lifestyle. From the gold grill, to the "thug life 4eva" postings, to the multiple baggies he was found with.

He certainly did not turn out to be the all A 12 year old angelical honor student we were led to believe.

You implied that Treyvon jumped Zimmerman. Then you implied that Treyvon was a thug. Where did I twist your words? Or were you referring to the mini unicorns?

 

[blankslate]

LOL, what? The second guy pretty much AGREES with the outcome of the first guy, are you seriously going to ignore that. Are you seriously that desperate to see Zimmerman go free?

There are people desperate to see Zimmerman go free...

This case along with another tragedy that involved the fatal shooting of a military war veteran under somewhat similar circumstances points to a bad law.

A firearm present and the shooter allowed to claim self-defense even though it was questionable who started the confrontation just highlights the need for this SYG law to be re-examined.

The SYG Law needs to be struck down or rewritten so that cowboys with CCWs permit can't claim self-defense even when they have (or may have) at least partially provoked a confrontation then be pretty much untouchable by prosecutors or police.

Some people become irrational then 2nd Amendment rights are in question. Even though it is arguable that stand your ground is giving civilians more leeway to shoot than police have and with less review.

Or people point to Trayvon Martin's trouble at school and suggest it shows that Trayvon Martin had to have started the fight even though that Mr. Zimmerman has a someone similar cloud around his past.

They ignore the fact that there is no eye-witness who saw the entire confrontation and that while one eye-witness did see a portion of the fight with Trayvon Martin on top it doesn't mean he instigated the confrontation and given the CCTV recording at the police station it certainly doesn't mean that Trayvon Martin was in the process of killing Mr. Zimmerman.

 

[lotus503]

Wow, I'm not a lawyer and my interpretation of the law (776.032) is the same as the prosecutor. Unless some new evidence and/or testimony comes to light this case it will never proceed to trial.

We know we dont have all of the facts. So it's a certainty new evidence is going to come to light that will tilt this case one way or another.

I do think the lack of charges at this point has nothing to do with zimmermans guilt or innocence rather Corey's determination to investigate it properly.

If he is charged with negligent homicide how are you going to feel about that, since it contradicts your opinion on the case?

 

[HomerJS]

In my opinion, trayvon definitely did associate with the thug lifestyle. From the gold grill, to the "thug life 4eva" postings, to the multiple baggies he was found with.

He certainly did not turn out to be the all A 12 year old angelical honor student we were led to believe.

For someone who claims to be interested in the "facts" how does your "opinion" on T's association with a thug lifestyle have any bering on this case?

As for you above assertion, you have zero evidence anyone in T's family ever claim he was 12 at the time of the shooting or he was "perfect" or an "angel"

Criticize the family all you want, if you were in the position of releasing pictures to the public you would pick the best ones. The family has withheld nothing that is relevant to this case.

 

[Icepick]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...cation-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

Uh oh. What if it turns out that it is Treyvon who can be heard screaming for help in the recording? Will that change anyone's attitude in regard to this tragedy? So far we have a forensic consultant and an "expert" who both independently concluded that it is not Zimmerman screaming for help on that recording.

How likely is it that these two are fudging the results? Is it possible that they were both coerced into reporting results that are contrary to Zimmerman's claim?

 

[dali71]

Another neighbor has come forward: http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/neighbor-defends-george-zimmerman-03302012

TAMPA - One of George Zimmerman's neighbors is speaking out, saying looks can be deceiving.

Despite booking video from the Sanford Police Department that many say shows George Zimmerman largely unscathed from his encounter with Trayvon Martin, the neighbor said he saw Zimmerman with obvious injuries.

The neighbor is talking for the first time about what he saw on George Zimmerman's face less than 24-hours after Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

"I saw George. He was banged up. His head had two big bandages, that weren't flat, had a bump on them," the neighbor, who did not want to be identified, said.

He described where the injuries were.

"I seen him have a big bandage on his nose and his nose swollen. On the side, where his eyes were at, it was swollen," he said.

He points out exactly where on a picture.

"I seen the bandage right here, and this side of his nose and this side of his nose was swollen.

The surveillance video was released by Sanford police of Zimmerman when he was brought in for questioning after the shooting. Bruises and bandages aren't visible, but you can see an officer looking at the back of his head.

"Once you get into a fight you don't show bruises that day, it shows the next day," he said.

The neighbor says Zimmerman had to have acted in self-defense.

"I think something happened that night where he had to defend himself," the neighbor said.

He says that the voice heard screaming on the 911 call is that of George Zimmerman.

"I hear his voice every single day, I talk to him every single day," he said.

He says the case has haunted him.

"I've been thinking about it morning noon and night ever since I seen the bandages on him," he said.

He believes Zimmerman was defending his life, and that's why he's defending Zimmerman now. He says he doesn't believe race played a role in what happened.

"I don't think race is involved at all, because I've seen black, African-American folks come to George's house," he said.

The neighbor says he's tired of Zimmerman being portrayed as the bad guy.

"Everyone needs to let the justice system take its course before rushing to judgment," he said.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

We know we dont have all of the facts. So it's a certainty new evidence is going to come to light that will tilt this case one way or another.

I do think the lack of charges at this point has nothing to do with zimmermans guilt or innocence rather Corey's determination to investigate it properly.

If he is charged with negligent homicide how are you going to feel about that, since it contradicts your opinion on the case?

If they have the evidence to charge him with negligent homicide so be it, he will get his day in court instead of being tried in the media or by emotionally charged people that want to piss on the US Constitution and state laws.

 

[OCNewbie]

Keep talking about your imaginary beating. The world sees the police video with no blood, no wound.

Yeah, that's certainly life threatening.....

So are you now admitting there was a beating, or that there are at least what appear to be wounds?

Zimmerman required no EMT treatment. A few minute police treatment is sufficient to take him back to police station for question.

Police Report - Got to last page of report to see below quoted text.

Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and was given first aid by the SFD. While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard him state "I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me.” At no point did I question Zimmerman about the incident that had taken place. Once Zimmerman was cleared by the SFD, he was transported to the Sanford Police Department.

SFD = Sanford Fire Department = EMTs

 

[spidey07]

I think the reason they're releasing this info is to prep people when no charges are filed. The info only strengthens self defense. He can't be charged if it was, only if there is something, anything, that shows it wasn't. The law protects the victim (Zimmerman)

I thought the special prosecutor put a lid on releasing information about the case?

 

[Geosurface]

I just whipped that up. Anyone disagree with it (if all events Z claims happened are true, what I mean is does anyone disagree with the justification level?) Btw this was my first time making such a graph, used a website and the "title" of the overall thing is confusingly redundant with the legend on the left side, sorry for that.

 

[Icepick]

I haven't seen any of us say he deserved to be shot because of his style.

The style and the disciplinary history at school, possible assault on bus driver, etc, does go to show that he might be the sort of guy to assault Zimmerman as Zimmerman claims though.

And being thugged out even if you can't see the gold teeth and tats from a distance, typically people who embrace thug culture to that degree also carry themselves in a thuggish way, there's a thuggish walk. You know what I am referring to, about the thuggish walk and way of carrying one's self. I refuse to believe you don't.

But, his style is playing into the argument of whether George was justified in pursuing him and whether or not Treyvon initiated a physical confrontation with him.

I've seen the "walk" plenty of times. I first noticed it's prevalence back in the late 80's or 90's as I was going through my teens. I see groups of kids strut around with that "walk" in the mall all the time. There's a guy who dresses that way and struts around the office building where I work as well. I'm talking about people completely decked out with the baseball caps on sideways and baggy pants hanging down around the pubic area showing their boxers. Not once in all of these years have I felt compelled to stop them and ask them what they're doing there or had any other reason to think they're suspicious. I guess I'm numb to it since that fashion has been in the periphery most of my life. I accept this as another turn in fashion just like ripped jeans were when I was in school. Hell, I even let one of my friends talk me into buying a pair of ripped jeans off the rack when I was young and naieve (16) and didn't know how foolish I looked to more mature people. (I wore them twice and then decided they were silly.) Thank god I didn't cross paths with Zimmerman or some of the CCW carriers I've conversed with in this thread. Although, since I'm not black I don't know what was really running through his mind when he noticed that Zimmerman was paying attention to him.

For this reason, I refuse to take Treyvon's manner of dress into account of whether he "had it coming." We really need to take this off the table since none of us saw him walk so we don't know if he was swaggering or prancing or skipping up the road. All I've heard about what he was wearing was a grey sweatshirt. He probably wasn't wearing a baseball cap since the hood was up (it was raining.) Was he wearing baggy, low-hanging pants? I don't know.

 

[lotus503]

If they have the evidence to charge him with negligent homicide so be it, he will get his day in court instead of being tried in the media or by emotionally charged people that want to piss on the US Constitution and state laws.

I'm glad you will be ok with it. Because there is just as good of chance they will vs won't.

 

[Svnla]

For someone who claims to be interested in the "facts" how does your "opinion" on T's association with a thug lifestyle have any bering on this case?

As for you above assertion, you have zero evidence anyone in T's family ever claim he was 12 at the time of the shooting or he was "perfect" or an "angel"

Criticize the family all you want, if you were in the position of releasing pictures to the public you would pick the best ones. The family has withheld nothing that is relevant to this case.

True, release the best ones, NOT the ones that when he was in his early teen.

See my previous post and I did raise the question or two of why release the pics of early teen and not the recent ones that he was with his family/the little girl?

The family did not explicit say T was 12/angel/perfect but by release those early teen smiling pics, would that be implicit/paint the portrait differently?

 

[spidey07]

Embracing the thug lifestyle shows its entirely possible, even probable, Martin would attack Zimmerman for "disrespecting" him. It helps paint a clearer picture of why Martin would assault

 

[OCNewbie]

Although, since I'm not black I don't know what was really running through his mind when he noticed that Zimmerman was paying attention to him.

I find this to be a slightly racist comment. What does being black have to do with one's reaction when noticing someone you don't recognize checking you out?

 

[Icepick]

I just whipped that up. Anyone disagree with it (if all events Z claims happened are true, what I mean is does anyone disagree with the justification level?) Btw this was my first time making such a graph, used a website and the "title" of the overall thing is confusingly redundant with the legend on the left side, sorry for that.

LOL

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I'm glad you will be ok with it. Because there is just as good of chance they will vs won't.

I don't think the odds are anywhere close to being equal as the prosecutor must prove that GZ's use of force was unlawful beyond a shadow of a doubt. I think the odds are much closer to 99% chance that there will be no charges filed.

 

[Icepick]

I find this to be a slightly racist comment. What does being black have to do with one's reaction when noticing someone you don't recognize checking you out?

Not racist at all. Unless you've had a chance to walk in someone else's shoes you have little chance of understanding what it's like to be that person. You don't know what they've experienced that causes them to act the way they do.

I grew up as a white kid in a majority white nation. Therefore, I don't know what it's like to be a minority or to be discriminated against. I don't really know what it's like to be an African American in the U.S. I can guess based on observations but, have no real life experience to back it up.

 

[Paul98]

The conclusion of this topic, and in rule of the law. Always carry a gun on you and bullet proof vest. If someone is following you and tries to confront you. Don't try to do anything other than shoot the person in the face and make sure they are dead. As any defense that doesn't cause the other persons death could allow them to also use SYG and kill you.

 

[Infohawk]

The tape has screaming for a fair amount of time. If it's Martin screaming, doesn't that suggest he was losing the fight? Why does Zimmerman need to blow him away then when the police are coming? All the pro-Martin stories don't really paint a story of manslaughter. They all seem to rely on Zimmerman being insanely bloodthirsty. If he was so bloodthirsty, why did he wait for the police to be almost there?

 

[HomerJS]

Embracing the thug lifestyle shows its entirely possible, even probable, Martin would attack Zimmerman for "disrespecting" him. It helps paint a clearer picture of why Martin would assault

Better start suspecting, following, questioning a lot of preppy white kids wearing hoodies and smoking weed. But we know that won't happen.

Also you refuse to accept Z having a background of assult on police and girlfriends make him more probable to encite. Sounds fair to me.

 

[Icepick]

Embracing the thug lifestyle shows its entirely possible, even probable, Martin would attack Zimmerman for "disrespecting" him. It helps paint a clearer picture of why Martin would assault

Zimmerman had past run-ins with the police and a record of violent behavior. This paints a clearer picture of why Zimmerman would lose his temper and assault Martin.