UK's Altrincham Grammar School for Girls bans calling pupils 'girls'

[[DHT]Osiris]

I guess that distinction confuses me.

Yes, we know. If you understood the distinction, you never would have posted in this thread.

 

[fskimospy]

I would be inclined to take your word for this approach if it weren't for the movement to admit biological men into women's sports. Clearly, there are those who draw no distinction even on biological grounds, which is the entire basis for sex-segregated sports. It seems obvious to me that whereas not all transgenders believe they really are the opposite sex, there's a contingent of them who do.

And those who do are deluded.

Can you point me to specific members of this contingent and tell me how you came to this conclusion?

 

[Vic]

Of course. They already do. Tolerance ends when force becomes involved.

And the laws against homosexuality which existed in the US up until very recently, and which the so-called Religious Right lobby every day to restore, somehow do not constitute force?

 

[Atreus21]

Can you point me to specific members of this contingent and tell me how you came to this conclusion?

Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[fskimospy]

Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That does not show what you claim. Just show me a specific person who claims what you say they do. No inferences, no allusions, just quote them. If there's so many of them this should be easy.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

That does not show what you claim. Just show me a specific person who claims what you say they do. No inferences, no allusions, just quote them. If there's so many of them this should be easy.

Guys, guys, watch, this is where he either changes the subject or ghosts the thread.

 

[Starbuck1975]

As far as I can tell here the two way street of tolerance involves you calling them delusional and them tolerating you calling them delusional.

Would you consider an atheist to be tolerant of your religion if they described you as delusional?

An atheist is free to express that opinion, because religion is a human construct. Some atheists are quite disrespectful in their intolerance of the religious, but I wouldn’t seek to silence them.

Gender is similarly a human construct, and therefore subjective.

You can’t flat earth biology with pronouns. Language establishes recognizable patterns to enable communication. The gender binary assumes a sex binary.

Of course you can claim that inter-sexed people exist, but we can accommodate them as a biological outlier through existing language, as we do for other biological anomalies (extra limbs, missing limbs, conjoined twins, etc.)

I support respecting a person’s identity and how they choose to present themselves.

I do have a problem with the insufferably woke who make this more complicated then it needs to be, or feel compelled to virtue signal their hyper awareness to this discussion.

 

[interchange]

I would be inclined to take your word for this approach if it weren't for the movement to admit biological men into women's sports. Clearly, there are those who draw no distinction even on biological grounds, which is the entire basis for sex-segregated sports. It seems obvious to me that whereas not all transgenders believe they really are the opposite sex, there's a contingent of them who do.

And those who do are deluded.

1. Please provide some references for the movement you describe. My understanding of this issue does not seem to align with what you state.

2. Please provide some references for individuals who believe they are physically of a different sex and not gender so as to quantify the contingent you speak of. I do agree that there are people with such a delusion. As there are many people with non bizarre delusions, e.g. of pregnancy, of wealth, of having an advanced degree, etc.

3. Please tell me of what importance it is to this discussion for those who are not delusional that someone exists with a delusion of opposite sex. For example, even though I know many people are delusional about their own selves RE: pregnancy, wealth, education, it doesn't affect my view of someone who is in reality pregnant, wealthy, or well-educated.

 

[fskimospy]

An atheist is free to express that opinion, because religion is a human construct. Some atheists are quite disrespectful in their intolerance of the religious, but I wouldn’t seek to silence them.

Sure, people can say whatever they want, although 'tolerance' in my experience is usually meant to indicate some level of respect as well. An atheist who calls all religious people delusional has the right to do so but it's not very tolerant of them. Similarly, the assumption that transgender people are delusional is intolerant.

Gender is similarly a human construct, and therefore subjective.

You can’t flat earth biology with pronouns. Language establishes recognizable patterns to enable communication. The gender binary assumes a sex binary.

Numerous cultures have more than two genders. Gender and sex just aren't the same thing and I don't see how recognizing them as two distinctly different things inhibits communication.

Of course you can claim that inter-sexed people exist, but we can accommodate them as a biological outlier through existing language, as we do for other biological anomalies (extra limbs, missing limbs, conjoined twins, etc.)

I support respecting a person’s identity and how they choose to present themselves.

I do have a problem with the insufferably woke who make this more complicated then it needs to be, or feel compelled to virtue signal their hyper awareness to this discussion.

I agree! It is insufferable is when someone will be giving a presentation and starts it with their pronouns or includes them in their email signature, especially when they are the expected pronouns. Some people can and do take the respect and tolerance thing to a very punchable place.

 

[interchange]

I support respecting a person’s identity and how they choose to present themselves.

I do have a problem with the insufferably woke who make this more complicated then it needs to be, or feel compelled to virtue signal their hyper awareness to this discussion.

With these statements I very much agree. What I see is a culture which diminishes the safety of expressing speech differences in regard to beliefs about gender organization and not a problem with the law running afoul of free speech. In this regard, I'm referring to US culture.

 

[Atreus21]

That does not show what you claim. Just show me a specific person who claims what you say they do. No inferences, no allusions, just quote them. If there's so many of them this should be easy.

It doesn't? Did you read it?

It mentions two examples of men competing in womens' sports. There are plenty of other examples.

Terry Miller, Andraya Yearwood, transgender sprinters, finish 1st, 2nd at Connecticut championships

Andraya Yearwood of Cromwell High School recently finished second in the 55-meter dash at the Connecticut state open indoor track championships. The winner, Terry Miller of Bloomfield High, is also transgender and set a girls state indoor record of 6.95 seconds.

www.washingtontimes.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/2goivp

I'm not quite sure what you're asking for here. Proof that men try to compete in women's sports?

 

[fskimospy]

It doesn't? Did you read it?

It mentions two examples of men competing in womens' sports. There are plenty of other examples.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking for here. Proof that men try to compete in women's sports?

That does not prove your point. You've now pinpointed these two men that compete in women's sports. Can you now quote them claiming they believe their biological sex is that of a woman? Direct quotes please.

By the way I'm sure as interchange says there are SOME people in the world that think that, but the number is vanishingly small. It's simply not representative of what transgender people think.

 

[Atreus21]

That does not prove your point. You've now pinpointed these two men that compete in women's sports. Can you now quote them claiming they believe their biological sex is that of a woman? Direct quotes please.

By the way I'm sure as interchange says there are SOME people in the world that think that, but the number is vanishingly small. It's simply not representative of what transgender people think.

The argument I've heard is that transgender people don't believe they are biologically the opposite sex. But the entire basis of sex-segregation of sports is on biological grounds. Therefore it's fair to assume that their identification with women is not strictly mental or psychological, but biological as well. Not all of them, but some of them.

 

[fskimospy]

The argument I've heard is that transgender people don't believe they are biologically the opposite sex. But the entire basis of sex-segregation of sports is on biological grounds. Therefore it's fair to assume that their identification with women is not strictly mental or psychological, but biological as well. Not all of them, but some of them.

It is most certainly not fair to think that, as evidenced by your own links. The requirements for competition in many places are that the person is on hormonal treatments. Clearly if they thought they were the opposite sex such treatments would be unnecessary.

Come on, I've asked for something pretty simple, if it's prevalent like you claim this should be easy to provide.

 

[Atreus21]

It is most certainly not fair to think that, as evidenced by your own links. The requirements for competition in many places are that the person is on hormonal treatments. Clearly if they thought they were the opposite sex such treatments would be unnecessary.

Those requirements are imposed from without, and anyway that's not the point.

If transgender men didn't think their identification extended to biology, why would they seek to compete with biological women in sports?

 

[fskimospy]

Those requirements are imposed from without, and anyway that's not the point.

If transgender men didn't think their identification extended to biology, why would they seek to compete with biological women in sports?

It most certainly is the point. You are claiming they believe something - if they believe it you should be able to find a quote of at least some of them saying as much. This isn't complicated! Can't you find a single, solitary one?

Just one.

 

[Atreus21]

It most certainly is the point. You are claiming they believe something - if they believe it you should be able to find a quote of at least some of them saying as much. This isn't complicated! Can't you find a single, solitary one?

Just one.

Okay, here's what's going to happen. For the sake of getting past your determination to get off-topic, I will go scour the internet looking for some professor somewhere saying that biological sex is a social construct, or that a transgender woman really is a man. Then, you will either (1) claim it doesn't say what I say it says, (2) tell me it's just an outlier or an isolated lunatic, or (3) tell me to explain why they're wrong. Which just gets us further out in the weeds. Do we really have to go through all that instead of just addressing what I actually argued?

Namely: If transgender men didn't think their identification extended to biology, why would they seek to compete with biological women in sports?

 

[fskimospy]

Okay, here's what's going to happen. For the sake of getting past your determination to get off-topic, I will go scour the internet looking for some professor somewhere saying that biological sex is a social construct, or that a transgender woman really is a man. Then, you will either (1) claim it doesn't say what I say it says, (2) tell me it's just an outlier or an isolated lunatic, or (3) tell me to explain why they're wrong. Which just gets us further out in the weeds. Do we really have to go through all that instead of just addressing what I actually argued?

Namely: If transgender men didn't think their identification extended to biology, why would they seek to compete with biological women in sports?

It's not off topic, it's literally the exact topic. YOU ARE CLAIMING SOMEONE BELIEVES SOMETHING - PLEASE PROVIDE DIRECT EVIDENCE THEY BELIEVE THIS.

I'm not saying that there's no one in the world that believes this, I'm saying the number is extremely, extremely small and is in no way representative of what the average transgender person believes. The fact that finding evidence of this is clearly so difficult for you should tell you that your position here is wrong. That was the whole purpose of me asking you to find some quotes, so you would see that it's just not something meaningful numbers of people believe.

 

[Atreus21]

It's not off topic, it's literally the exact topic. YOU ARE CLAIMING SOMEONE BELIEVES SOMETHING - PLEASE PROVIDE DIRECT EVIDENCE THEY BELIEVE THIS.

I did. The fact that they seek to join women's sports.

I'm not saying that there's no one in the world that believes this, I'm saying the number is extremely, extremely small and is in no way representative of what the average transgender person believes. The fact that finding evidence of this is clearly so difficult for you should tell you that your position here is wrong. That was the whole purpose of me asking you to find some quotes, so you would see that it's just not something meaningful numbers of people believe.

It's apparently a big enough issue that GLSEN and GLAAD care about it.

 

[WelshBloke]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/2goivp

I think the bigger issue there is that we shouldn't be paying people to beat the shit out of each other.

 

[fskimospy]

I did. The fact that they seek to join women's sports.

So to be clear you believe that any individual who attempts to compete in women's sports believes they are of the female biological sex? This is demonstrably false.

It's apparently a big enough issue that GLSEN and GLAAD care about it.

If you bothered to read your own links you would see there is absolutely nothing in either of them that indicates they believe transgender students should compete in those sporting events because they are actually of that biological sex. Thank you for further proving my point.

Do you even know any transgender people? It's hard for me to imagine that you do, or at least not well.

 

[interchange]

Okay, here's what's going to happen. For the sake of getting past your determination to get off-topic, I will go scour the internet looking for some professor somewhere saying that biological sex is a social construct, or that a transgender woman really is a man. Then, you will either (1) claim it doesn't say what I say it says, (2) tell me it's just an outlier or an isolated lunatic, or (3) tell me to explain why they're wrong. Which just gets us further out in the weeds. Do we really have to go through all that instead of just addressing what I actually argued?

Namely: If transgender men didn't think their identification extended to biology, why would they seek to compete with biological women in sports?

Do you think that a transgender high school student would face significant barriers unrelated to athletic performance participating in a sport aligning with their biological sex?

I reject your notion that high school sports are about athletic performance and nothing else. Competition is a small minority of what an athlete typical does in their athletics-based activities, and quite a lot of people choose to participate in sports well-knowing they have no hope of ever being good enough to do so professionally.

 

[Atreus21]

So to be clear you believe that any individual who attempts to compete in women's sports believes they are of the female biological sex?

Essentially, yes.

This is demonstrably false.

Demonstrate it then. Do transgendered people disavow a biological component to their gender identity? And if they do, why do they seek surgery to change their bodies to fit those of the other sex?

If you bothered to read your own links you would see there is absolutely nothing in either of them that indicates they believe transgender students should compete in those sporting events because they are actually of that biological sex. Thank you for further proving my point.

So what then is your alternative explanation for their advocacy? Why do you think they say men should be allowed to compete with biological women, instead of requiring them to compete with other men, if not that their identification extends to biology as well?

Do you even know any transgender people? It's hard for me to imagine that you do, or at least not well.

As a matter of fact I don't. They are rare.

 

[fskimospy]

Essentially, yes.

Then you are delusional. This is why I asked you to find a single, solitary person quoted as saying as much. The fact that you clearly cannot should lead you to reconsider your position.

Demonstrate it then. Do transgendered people disavow a biological component to their gender identity? And if they do, why do they seek surgery to change their bodies to fit those of the other sex?

Of course, gender and sex are distinctly different things. I'm not sure how you aren't getting this.

So what then is your alternative explanation for their advocacy? Why do you think they say men should be allowed to compete with biological women, instead of requiring them to compete with other men, if not that their identification extends to biology as well?

That they think gender identity should be the controlling influence, not biological sex. They are pretty clear about this.

As a matter of fact I don't. They are rare.

This fact was readily apparent to me. I'm not sure why you are speaking so strongly about a topic you clearly have no understanding of.

 

[Atreus21]

Then you are delusional. This is why I asked you to find a single, solitary person quoted as saying as much. The fact that you clearly cannot should lead you to reconsider your position.



Of course, gender and sex are distinctly different things. I'm not sure how you aren't getting this.



That they think gender identity should be the controlling influence, not biological sex. They are pretty clear about this.



This fact was readily apparent to me. I'm not sure why you are speaking so strongly about a topic you clearly have no understanding of.

You deftly avoided both questions.