UK's Altrincham Grammar School for Girls bans calling pupils 'girls'

[ElFenix]

sex isn't binary. moose out front shoulda told ya.

 

[Starbuck1975]

This is irrelevant to the fact that gender is something entirely different than sex and when conservatives pretend not to understand that they can’t expect the rest of us to pretend along with them.

Words have meaning.

But I’ve demonstrated that while they are different terms, they undeniably correlate.

Hence my example of the word “mother”.

As a noun, it means parentage
As a verb, it means giving birth

A trans woman can be a mother, but can’t mother a child

Words have meaning

 

[fskimospy]

But I’ve demonstrated that while they are different terms, they undeniably correlate.

Hence my example of the word “mother”.

As a noun, it means parentage
As a verb, it means giving birth

A trans woman can be a mother, but can’t mother a child

Words have meaning

This is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Starbuck1975]

How many creative? How many intelligent? Monogamous? Polyamorous? How many bald? With scars on their skin?

Why the need to place people in boxes?

Whether something can be ascertained from the fossil record seems to me quite a poor way to judge its validity as a construct.

Just because we cannot measure the divine with science seems like quite a poor way to judge God’s validity as a construct.

But validity is socially defined. Even our words which are intended to mean something explicitly concrete and physical have significant shortcomings when looked at through a fine lens. We make approximations because we have to but because they are also useful. For things which are poorly concrete, language is destined to be inadequate. Even for concrete things which arise little conflict internally for a basic understanding such as, say "cancer", are impossible to precisely define. What makes some changes in a cell grouping cancer and another pre-cancerous? And "cancer" connotes a category of extreme complexity, each individual case being truly unique, but still we subdivide as much as possible because doing so allows us to do way better than random at treating the illness. Even the idea of life and death contain a line that is extremely difficult for which to define a boundary.

So true with biological "sex". There is quite a range of genetic and physiologic presentations including many which are not easily classified in a binary way.

For gender, even the most socially progressive terminology being promoted involves extremely rudimentary categorizations. But they are much more useful than nothing, and there is a point where trying to be more specific makes things horribly impractical.

But I think you see the basic principles at play. I believe I understand what you are arguing should be. But I don't understand why you believe that. Finding fault in an alternative does not do it for me. There is, by definition, no language that may be used without serious fault here. Definitely a rigid classification based on biology leads to far fewer miscategorizations, yet it also means a large part of experience goes entirely uncategorized. I don't understand why we should do that to such a degree.

I fully embrace the idea of gender fluidity. But gender expression cannot overcome the boundaries and evolutionary function of sex for some scenarios.

 

[Starbuck1975]

This is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

Punt

 

[pmv]

Personally I don't care about the meta-physics and language. Most of the time there's no great need to care what gender someone is - gendered pronouns and such-like are just a historical accident.

Most English-speakers think it's a bit weird that so many Romance languages give even inanimate objects a gender - much of the time it's no more necessary to genderise words for humans.

Surely, in the end, it really comes down to a clash of interests over a finite number of real, practical, problems? E.g. public toilets, changing rooms, domestic-violence-refuges, and prisons.

I say solve the first by just providing a lot more toilets. If doing so needs more space, take it from the petrosexuals (i.e. remove car parking spaces)!

People just need to find solutions to the other problems. That might be tricky, but it doesn't help to get so worked up about terminology.

 

[Lanyap]

I came out as demisexual today. I’m now part of LGBTQ+. I think.

 

[Commodus]

I came out as demisexual today. I’m now part of LGBTQ+. I think.

I'd say it counts. Also, congrats on sharing it -- I'm sure it's not easy, especially since it probably involves explaining the terminology whenever you mention it.

 

[interchange]

Why the need to place people in boxes?

I'm certain you can figure that out. Without categorization, we have no framework to understand our environment and others who interact with us. It's impossible to be exact in our descriptions, but even if we were it obviously faces barriers with practicality.

Just because we cannot measure the divine with science seems like quite a poor way to judge God’s validity as a construct.

Ok? I'm not sure really what you mean to communicate in this statement as to our prior discussion.

I fully embrace the idea of gender fluidity. But gender expression cannot overcome the boundaries and evolutionary function of sex for some scenarios.

Is anyone here suggesting otherwise? I'm pretty sure what people are arguing against is a rigid insistence on a biology-only concept of gender. Saying that this does not fit reality doesn't in converse suggest that biology is of no relevance when a person's gender roles do not align with what is typically associated with their biological sex within a particular society.

Certainly there are progressive advocates who seek to deny any relevance of biology, but they also are wrong, and I have no issues pointing out my disagreement with that stance. It bothers me how, similar to race, this is an issue where feeling safe to express yourself without being categorized into a worthless holdout of antiquated beliefs functions as a huge impediment to a more unified and nuanced collective understanding.

I think any more realistic understanding also realizes that a ton of conflicts are going to be naturally created by trying to live in the real space between pure biology and pure gender fluidity disconnected from biology. Case in point, athletic competition. There's no true right answer there.