Ugh, Christian intervention @ my house tonight! Live!

[IronWing]

What denomination is this? Sounds like some private church that needs to make sure their donation supply keeps coming in.

You haven't narrowed it down much as you've just described every preacher from the time the first lazy ass Cro-magnon discovered gullibility.






Sidenote: Cromagnon gets changed to Cromwellian by the Firefox spell checker!

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Would you have had a problem with them coming over if they were from the local gym and seeing why a member of their weightlifting club had not been coming much ?

Because it is religion you feel the need to bash it and make fun of it because it doesn't share your views ? I hope you are never put in a position of authority over anyone else where anyone not sharing your views is belittled.

I am understanding more and more why there is an increase in bullying in youths.

This...would never happen!
And if it did it would be a cult rather than a gym!

 

[TheVrolok]

Aggregate data? Western culture is increasingly secularizing. I thought you 100% agreed on that point?

I absolutely agree that the Western world is secularizing; what I'm arguing with is your point that it seems to be impossible for someone to be voluntarily religious.

Again, do you deny the concept of indoctrination?

Not at all, of course it happens. I'm simply saying it's not the ONLY way someone can be religious. What you're essentially saying is that if someone is brought up with religion in their life, and then decide to keep it, it was not a voluntary choice whatsoever - in some cases that may be, while in others, it is not.

 

[AreaCode707]

No offense, but that's not really a negative experience compared to what others have dealt with. Try being sent to a camp to be cured for instance. No not all youth groups are that way (in fact obviously the majority are not), but considering the many instances of religion being used to take advantage of children, acting like there's no reason to bash is preposterous. The sad thing is the negative religious behavior happens often enough to be a stereotype.

It can be outright impossible to live and let live with religious people as they go out of their way to push it onto others. How can you expect people to let live when they try to refute evolution or comment on science (which by the way isn't saying anything about religion or god) based solely on their beliefs and force it into schools or government. Not only that, but have Fred Phelps protest a loved one's funeral and then get back to me on letting live.

Non-nested quotes make this harder but I was responding to someone who'd had an experience on approximately the same level I described. If I was responding to someone with experiences you'd described, I would have written quite differently.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

Of course they do some good, but I'm not going to sing its praises because there's a lot of gray area there (sure they donate billions, while having leaders in gilded halls and much more wealth than they give out.

Have you looked at the average salaries of people that work full-time in Christian ministry. It's really, really, really low.

The idea that serving in Christian ministry is a money grab is completely ridiculous.

As far as "indoctrination", as a parent I have the right to educate my children in the way I deem appropriate.

When the time comes when the state wants to take away my parental rights, it will be time to move.

And don't bring up red herring extremes like withholding medical treatment or some such thing.

 

[alkemyst]

Do you live in a commune or something? How many youths are there?

 

[preslove]

I absolutely agree that the Western world is secularizing; what I'm arguing with is your point that it seems to be impossible for someone to be voluntarily religious.



Not at all, of course it happens. I'm simply saying it's not the ONLY way someone can be religious. What you're essentially saying is that if someone is brought up with religion in their life, and then decide to keep it, it was not a voluntary choice whatsoever - in some cases that may be, while in others, it is not.

I've never said that it's the ONLY way. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that it is the PREDOMINANT way people become religious.

 

[Malak]

This...would never happen!
And if it did it would be a cult rather than a gym!

It would never happen because the gym doesn't care about you, only your money. Thus proving a point about the church not doing it for the money.

 

[preslove]

Are you saying 5 year olds in sunday school have a religion? Statistically I can tell you that even 15 year olds rarely do. They might put Christian on their facebook, but that doesn't mean they actually care or take it seriously. There's a huge difference between someone that claims a religion, and someone that is religious. That is why polls fail big time.

YAWN. No true Scotsman fallacy?

I consider people who identify as christians to be christians, and consider the idiotic, but inevitable, christian practice of christians saying that huge swaths of the christian population "are not really christians" to be a pathetic.

Christianity would not be here today if it did not indoctrinate each new generation when they're children. All religions survive past 2 or 3 generations by doing this. Any religious institution that didn't would wither away and disappear.

 

[Malak]

I've never said that it's the ONLY way. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that it is the PREDOMINANT way people become religious.

But you have no actual evidence, only speculation. You assume and believe that nobody would be religious voluntarily.

The logical reality is that everyone is religious voluntarily. Your issue is that you don't understand why, you don't find religion rational, you give people the benefit of the doubt that they are rational, so believe that the only way they can be religious is through some irrational means outside of their control. Once you understand that this simply is not the case, you are left only with your question of why.

 

[sourceninja]

It would never happen because the gym doesn't care about you, only your money. Thus proving a point about the church not doing it for the money.

When I stop training in cult like bullshit martial arts, each and everyone one of them has called me to ask if I was ok and try to guilt trip me back.

 

[Malak]

YAWN. No true Scotsman fallacy?

I consider people who identify as christians to be christians, and consider the idiotic, but inevitable, christian practice of christians saying that huge swaths of the christian population "are not really christians" to be a pathetic.

Christianity would not be here today if it did not indoctrinate each new generation when they're children.

That fallacy is a copout for people that refuse to accept that a duck calling itself a dog is still a duck and not a dog.

 

[Malak]

When I stop training in cult like bullshit martial arts, each and everyone one of them has called me to ask if I was ok and try to guilt trip me back.

Obviously they care about you.

 

[Cookie]

Obviously they care about you.

LOL.

They care about you not being there to pay them MORE MONEY!

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

That fallacy is a copout for people that refuse to accept that a duck calling itself a dog is still a duck and not a dog.

The fact remains, however, that you are not the Grand Arbiter of who is or is not a True™ Christian. To purport such authority is disingenuous.

 

[preslove]

But you have no actual evidence, only speculation. You assume and believe that nobody would be religious voluntarily.

I just EXPLICITLY just said that I DO NOT believe that "nobody would be religious voluntarily"

If you insist on misrepresenting what I say, then go fuck yourself.

The logical reality is that everyone is religious voluntarily. Your issue is that you don't understand why, you don't find religion rational, you give people the benefit of the doubt that they are rational, so believe that the only way they can be religious is through some irrational means outside of their control. Once you understand that this simply is not the case, you are left only with your question of why.

First off, look who is making a claim with NO EVIDENCE, now? Hypocrite.

I understand quite a bit about religioun, and feel that I have had a type of religious (more spiritual) experience. I know that DOGMA has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the experience of the Divine. Instead, it is just a requirement for religious institutions.

BTW. Faith and the spiritual, by definition, is irrational. Getting rid of thought is the only way to actually experience the divine/god/spirit or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Malak]

I just EXPLICITLY just said that I DO NOT believe that "nobody would be religious voluntarily"

If you insist on misrepresenting what I say, then go fuck yourself.

Based on how you present yourself, I am speculating that you change the wording only to hide what you really feel so as to avoid being called out on it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you don't even realize it.

First off, look who is making a claim with NO EVIDENCE, now? Hypocrite.

Which claim did I make with no evidence, the first or the second? The first is obviously true, so I'm assuming you are referring to my claim about you? Tell me I'm wrong instead of insulting me and I might have accepted it. You seem to only prove my point with your emotional outbursts that avoid the subject. Again, maybe I'm wrong, maybe you just don't realize it.

I understand quite a bit about religioun, and feel that I have had a type of religious (more spiritual) experience. I know that DOGMA has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the experience of the Divine. Instead, it is just a requirement for religious institutions.

I think quite a few in this thread have had a "religious" experience, good of you to note the difference with spiritual. There can also be a difference between dogma and expressed beliefs, like creeds. Jesus, along with others in the Old and New Testament, expressed disgust with dogma.

BTW. Faith and the spiritual, by definition, is irrational. Getting rid of thought is the only way to actually experience the divine/god/spirit or whatever you want to call it.

Care to expand, I didn't quite follow you there.

 

[Malak]

The fact remains, however, that you are not the Grand Arbiter of who is or is not a True™ Christian. To purport such authority is disingenuous.

What if I am? Who's to say I'm not? This train of thought you created leads no where. While popular media may be lazy enough to assume anyone calling themselves Christian are therefore Christian, any serious discussion has to accept that is not true. It is actually fairly easy to see where people are clearly not Christian, when they practice things that contradict what their supposed beliefs are. Of course people make mistakes, that doesn't make them not a Christian. When people perpetuate things that are clearly against what defines Christian belief, that calls into question their standing.

 

[preslove]

Based on how you present yourself, I am speculating that you change the wording only to hide what you really feel so as to avoid being called out on it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you don't even realize it.

Maybe you're too stupid to understand nuance, but I have not once said that people NEVER voluntarily choose their religion. I have said that it is rare. Rare |= never.

Which claim did I make with no evidence, the first or the second? The first is obviously true, so I'm assuming you are referring to my claim about you? Tell me I'm wrong instead of insulting me and I might have accepted it. You seem to only prove my point with your emotional outbursts that avoid the subject. Again, maybe I'm wrong, maybe you just don't realize it.

It was the first, moran. You said that my claim about about religious identity was not based evidence, then you just made the opposite claim, WITHOUT PROVIDING ANY EVIDENCE. That makes you a hypocrite.

I think quite a few in this thread have had a "religious" experience, good of you to note the difference with spiritual. There can also be a difference between dogma and expressed beliefs, like creeds. Jesus, along with others in the Old and New Testament, expressed disgust with dogma.

Unfortunately, Jesus wrote not one word of the bible. All the dogma came after he died. Oh, and all the countless murders in pursuit of dogma, and in his name.

Care to expand, I didn't quite follow you there.

Of course you don't follow. The suppression of christian mysticism is one of the great tragedies in the countless tragedies of christian history.

Wise men have always pointed at the stars and moon. People like you have always only seen their fingers.

 

[preslove]

What if I am? Who's to say I'm not?

What are your credentials? Do you speak Greek, Latin, and/or Hebrew? Have you taken any theological courses?

Jesus. I'm pretty certain I know more about the history of your religion than you do.

Go through this course, and realize just how much variance there is within christian interpretation of the faith. http://academicearth.org/courses/new-testament-history-and-literature

The fact that you could even entertain the idea that you were the arbiter of who is and is not chrstian displays an Absolute narcissism. It's depressingly common narcissism among christians, though.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

What if I am?

If you are claiming that you are, then I have sound reason to declare you either ignorant, dishonest or both.

Who's to say I'm not?

I am.

This train of thought you created leads no where.

You obviously have not grasped the thrust of my criticism.

While popular media may be lazy enough to assume anyone calling themselves Christian are therefore Christian, any serious discussion has to accept that is not true.

It isn't laziness. It's generally courtesy to give others the benefit of the doubt that they are not lying about their own identities.

It is actually fairly easy to see where people are clearly not Christian, when they practice things that contradict what their supposed beliefs are.

That there are some obvious cases does not mean that the category "Christian" is rigorously defined.

Of course people make mistakes, that doesn't make them not a Christian.

Irrelevant.

When people perpetuate things that are clearly against what defines Christian belief, that calls into question their standing.

Again, you do not get to decide "what defines Christian belief" for everybody else.

 

[IronWing]

What if I am? Who's to say I'm not?

You are the sole arbitrator of who is/isn't a Christian. That's a great thing about having a sock puppet, it always agrees with you. Pro-tip: not every moral judgment or determination concerning the faith of others you might make necessarily needs to exit your mouth. It just pisses people off.

 

[IronWing]

Again, you do not get to decide "what defines Christian belief" for everybody else.

Actually he does. This is why faith and science never mix. In the realm of faith you get to manufacture your own reality to suit your prejudices. Science doesn't afford that luxury.

 

[Malak]

Maybe you're too stupid to understand nuance, but I have not once said that people NEVER voluntarily choose their religion. I have said that it is rare. Rare |= never.

I never said you did. I said possibly you changed the wording to avoid being called out on what you actually believe. In other words, "I don't want to generalize, but in general I believe..." And that actually would have looked better than the way you did in fact express yourself. I would have disagreed, but respected the way you presented yourself truthfully.

It was the first, moran. You said that my claim about about religious identity was not based evidence, then you just made the opposite claim, WITHOUT PROVIDING ANY EVIDENCE. That makes you a hypocrite.

If you can't see how my statement is 100% accurate, there really isn't any reason to continue this discussion. You cannot involuntarily believe something.

Unfortunately, Jesus wrote not one word of the bible. All the dogma came after he died. Oh, and all the countless murders in pursuit of dogma, and in his name.

Actually, most of the dogma came long before Jesus was born, and some of the books were written by the people who came up with the dogma. Fortunately, the bible consists of multiple authors instead of just one.

Of course you don't follow. The suppression of christian mysticism is one of the great tragedies in the countless tragedies of christian history.

Wise men have always pointed at the stars and moon. People like you have always only seen their fingers.

I'm still not following at all. It has nothing to do with suppression, you just don't make any sense.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Actually he does.

He gets to decide what he accepts as elements of the category "Christian," but he does not dictate what others will accept as elements of that same category. If he wants to have a meaninful conversation that involves usage of that term, he will need to either convince his conversation partner to accept his categorization, or at the very least come to a mutual understanding with that partner about how that term is going to be used. He does not get to assume his categorization is ubiquitous.