Ugh. Canada may soon have outlawed "scab" workers.

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KK

Lifer
Jan 2, 2001
15,903
4
81
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: meltdown75
I wonder if you would have the same attitude if you were working on a line somewhere and went on strike only to have some scab come in and do your job for half the money.

That's the problem with union talk on this board. Most of the people that run unions and their members through the mud have never been a part of either. Put yourself in their position.

I'm not pro-union by any stretch but the anti-union attitude here is has always irked me.

If the company has to shut down when there is a strike, that gives the union a lot more leverage than they should have. They shouldn't have any more leverage than they can exert by not coming to work. If the company can hire replacement workers for less money, why should they have to bother with union workers who are demanding more money? This will force companies to pay union workers above market value.
Why don't we just move all the jobs to Mexico? I hear the market value of workers is pretty cheap down there.

why not?
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,713
12
56
Originally posted by: blakeatwork
Too bad unions wouldn't get back to the basics of protecting workers from unfair working conditions, not pushing to drive business OUT OF business (see Chrysler)
hear! hear!

 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,917
14,191
146
Originally posted by: meltdown75
I wonder if you would have the same attitude if you were working on a line somewhere and went on strike only to have some scab come in and do your job for half the money.

That's the problem with union talk on this board. Most of the people that run unions and their members through the mud have never been a part of either. Put yourself in their position.

I'm not pro-union by any stretch but the anti-union attitude here is has always irked me.

I would realize I'm overpaid. If they can find someone just a as good as me for half the money, why shouldn't they? Wouldn't you?

A job is only worth as much as it takes to fill it. Setting artificially high wages is counter productive. Labor is, and always will be a commodity.
 

meltdown75

Lifer
Nov 17, 2004
37,558
7
81
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: meltdown75
I wonder if you would have the same attitude if you were working on a line somewhere and went on strike only to have some scab come in and do your job for half the money.

That's the problem with union talk on this board. Most of the people that run unions and their members through the mud have never been a part of either. Put yourself in their position.

I'm not pro-union by any stretch but the anti-union attitude here is has always irked me.

I would realize I'm overpaid. If they can find someone just a as good as me for half the money, why shouldn't they? Wouldn't you?

A job is only worth as much as it takes to fill it. Setting artificially high wages is counter productive. Labor is, and always will be a commodity.
Hypothetical scenario: your union calls for a strike and the members agree and walk out. You are replaced by scabs. Everyone is pissed... except for you. You willingly concede that you were making too much money, drop your sign and go home.

Wow, man. The world either needs more people like you, or less - I can't decide which.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,917
14,191
146
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: meltdown75
I wonder if you would have the same attitude if you were working on a line somewhere and went on strike only to have some scab come in and do your job for half the money.

That's the problem with union talk on this board. Most of the people that run unions and their members through the mud have never been a part of either. Put yourself in their position.

I'm not pro-union by any stretch but the anti-union attitude here is has always irked me.

I would realize I'm overpaid. If they can find someone just a as good as me for half the money, why shouldn't they? Wouldn't you?

A job is only worth as much as it takes to fill it. Setting artificially high wages is counter productive. Labor is, and always will be a commodity.
Hypothetical scenario: your union calls for a strike and the members agree and walk out. You are replaced by scabs. Everyone is pissed... except for you. You willingly concede that you were making too much money, drop your sign and go home.

Wow, man. The world either needs more people like you, or less - I can't decide which.

1. I would never belong to a union unless forced to in order to get a job (a reality I find absolutely despicable).
2. I would never actively protest.
3. "Scabs" are merely workers who have every right to do a job they were hired for.
4. A union's ONLY bargaining chip should be the cost of replacing and training new workers.

Unions create a sense of entitlement and low productivity when taken too far. Laws like this Canadian law only make that worse.
 

CountZero

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2001
1,796
36
86
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: meltdown75
I wonder if you would have the same attitude if you were working on a line somewhere and went on strike only to have some scab come in and do your job for half the money.

That's the problem with union talk on this board. Most of the people that run unions and their members through the mud have never been a part of either. Put yourself in their position.

I'm not pro-union by any stretch but the anti-union attitude here is has always irked me.

I would realize I'm overpaid. If they can find someone just a as good as me for half the money, why shouldn't they? Wouldn't you?

A job is only worth as much as it takes to fill it. Setting artificially high wages is counter productive. Labor is, and always will be a commodity.
Hypothetical scenario: your union calls for a strike and the members agree and walk out. You are replaced by scabs. Everyone is pissed... except for you. You willingly concede that you were making too much money, drop your sign and go home.

Wow, man. The world either needs more people like you, or less - I can't decide which.

Why are they striking? I can tell you that my stepdad was a member of a union that went on strike and he didn't agree with it and thought it was unnecessary. I don't know the details so I can't comment beyond that but you really can't deny that what unions go on strike for today doesn't compare to when unions were created.

I am a member of a union now and have been a member of unions in the past. I don't think they have a place in today's society. Firstly they completely push this "us vs them" mentality. Secondly if there is some basic benefit that unions are fighting for it shouldn't be a union thing it should be a legal thing such as livable minimum wages, required break periods, required benefits, etc. Thirdly scab workers are a pain and a downside but they keep unions from having total control. If you asked the average worker to set their own pay they'd push it to the brink of bankrupting a company let alone leaving a profit for expansion if you let unions completely control the companies financials this is what you get.

I'm not really pro corporation but they should be the ones deciding who they hire, fire and what they pay. If there needs to be limits on this it needs to be in law not governed by some third party. Unions are no better than their corporate counter parts and if they were abolished I'd be happy to get my dues back.
 

meltdown75

Lifer
Nov 17, 2004
37,558
7
81
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: meltdown75
I wonder if you would have the same attitude if you were working on a line somewhere and went on strike only to have some scab come in and do your job for half the money.

That's the problem with union talk on this board. Most of the people that run unions and their members through the mud have never been a part of either. Put yourself in their position.

I'm not pro-union by any stretch but the anti-union attitude here is has always irked me.

I would realize I'm overpaid. If they can find someone just a as good as me for half the money, why shouldn't they? Wouldn't you?

A job is only worth as much as it takes to fill it. Setting artificially high wages is counter productive. Labor is, and always will be a commodity.
Hypothetical scenario: your union calls for a strike and the members agree and walk out. You are replaced by scabs. Everyone is pissed... except for you. You willingly concede that you were making too much money, drop your sign and go home.

Wow, man. The world either needs more people like you, or less - I can't decide which.

1. I would never belong to a union unless forced to in order to get a job (a reality I find absolutely despicable).
2. I would never actively protest.
3. "Scabs" are merely workers who have every right to do a job they were hired for.
4. A union's ONLY bargaining chip should be the cost of replacing and training new workers.

Unions create a sense of entitlement and low productivity when taken too far. Laws like this Canadian law only make that worse.
Hah, I like your stipulation on point #1. You wouldn't belong to a union UNLESS you were "forced to" for employment reasons. So you're no different than any union worker out there. Do you think their initial reason for seeking employment is to be part of a union? Of course it's not, it's for a paycheque and a living. Everyone's got their own boat to float, union members are no different. Geez, you make them sound like inferior creatures!

Unions create a sense of entitlement and low productivity when taken too far.
I couldn't agree more but they DO have their place in society and serve a purpose.

Anyway, it's not a "law" yet.
 

jdoggg12

Platinum Member
Aug 20, 2005
2,685
11
81
Why are they striking? I can tell you that my stepdad was a member of a union that went on strike and he didn't agree with it and thought it was unnecessary. I don't know the details so I can't comment beyond that but you really can't deny that what unions go on strike for today doesn't compare to when unions were created.

I am a member of a union now and have been a member of unions in the past. I don't think they have a place in today's society. Firstly they completely push this "us vs them" mentality. Secondly if there is some basic benefit that unions are fighting for it shouldn't be a union thing it should be a legal thing such as livable minimum wages, required break periods, required benefits, etc. Thirdly scab workers are a pain and a downside but they keep unions from having total control. If you asked the average worker to set their own pay they'd push it to the brink of bankrupting a company let alone leaving a profit for expansion if you let unions completely control the companies financials this is what you get.

I'm not really pro corporation but they should be the ones deciding who they hire, fire and what they pay. If there needs to be limits on this it needs to be in law not governed by some third party. Unions are no better than their corporate counter parts and if they were abolished I'd be happy to get my dues back.

Very well said... i couldn't agree more.

Especially the us vs. them crap. I worked for the UFCW and hated going on strike when we did in 04. The union is just like any business - ruthless aspirations for money and power. The union workers are usually oblivious to the true politics going on, while the union heads spin the situation to make them vote to strike.
 

Patt

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2000
5,288
2
81
I'm just saying a little prayer of thanks that the pulp mill I work in has voted down a union twice in the last 5 years. I'm not necessarily anti-union ... but in the case of our mill, I'm glad it is the status quo for now. Besides, in Northern Alberta if you lose your forestry job, and have a trade, you can make way more in the Oil patch right now.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,924
45
91
meltdown75, not letting companies hire scabs is equivalent to not letting the union strike. It takes away all of one side's bargaining power and gives it to the other.

Hey Amused, we agree again. :p
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
Presidnet Ronald Reagan is needed in your country. i loved it when he fired the Air Traffic Controllers when they striked.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,418
8,370
126
Originally posted by: CountZero
Secondly if there is some basic benefit that unions are fighting for it shouldn't be a union thing it should be a legal thing such as livable minimum wages

do you know why the unions want a 'livable' (read: much higher) minimum wage?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,917
14,191
146
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: meltdown75
I wonder if you would have the same attitude if you were working on a line somewhere and went on strike only to have some scab come in and do your job for half the money.

That's the problem with union talk on this board. Most of the people that run unions and their members through the mud have never been a part of either. Put yourself in their position.

I'm not pro-union by any stretch but the anti-union attitude here is has always irked me.

I would realize I'm overpaid. If they can find someone just a as good as me for half the money, why shouldn't they? Wouldn't you?

A job is only worth as much as it takes to fill it. Setting artificially high wages is counter productive. Labor is, and always will be a commodity.
Hypothetical scenario: your union calls for a strike and the members agree and walk out. You are replaced by scabs. Everyone is pissed... except for you. You willingly concede that you were making too much money, drop your sign and go home.

Wow, man. The world either needs more people like you, or less - I can't decide which.

1. I would never belong to a union unless forced to in order to get a job (a reality I find absolutely despicable).
2. I would never actively protest.
3. "Scabs" are merely workers who have every right to do a job they were hired for.
4. A union's ONLY bargaining chip should be the cost of replacing and training new workers.

Unions create a sense of entitlement and low productivity when taken too far. Laws like this Canadian law only make that worse.
Hah, I like your stipulation on point #1. You wouldn't belong to a union UNLESS you were "forced to" for employment reasons. So you're no different than any union worker out there. Do you think their initial reason for seeking employment is to be part of a union? Of course it's not, it's for a paycheque and a living. Everyone's got their own boat to float, union members are no different. Geez, you make them sound like inferior creatures!

Unions create a sense of entitlement and low productivity when taken too far.
I couldn't agree more but they DO have their place in society and serve a purpose.

Anyway, it's not a "law" yet.

You think #1 is funny? Did you know there are some professions in some areas where you cannot practice your trade without belonging to a union? Ther are some companies just like that as well. You may think it's funny, I think it's shockingly depressing.

Maybe you misunderstood. I would not belong to a union unless I was FORCED to to be able to work. Think about that for a second. Some people are FORCED to join to a union simply to practice their trade or join a company.

DID they have a place in society? Yes. Do they now? Very little. In fact, I cannot think of one useful thing a union has done in 4 decades.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,917
14,191
146
Originally posted by: mugs
meltdown75, not letting companies hire scabs is equivalent to not letting the union strike. It takes away all of one side's bargaining power and gives it to the other.

Hey Amused, we agree again. :p

Amazing, isn't it? :)

Equality under the law is a wonderful thing... if people could ever stop and think outside their own little box at the expense of the rights of others.
 

meltdown75

Lifer
Nov 17, 2004
37,558
7
81
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: meltdown75
I wonder if you would have the same attitude if you were working on a line somewhere and went on strike only to have some scab come in and do your job for half the money.

That's the problem with union talk on this board. Most of the people that run unions and their members through the mud have never been a part of either. Put yourself in their position.

I'm not pro-union by any stretch but the anti-union attitude here is has always irked me.

I would realize I'm overpaid. If they can find someone just a as good as me for half the money, why shouldn't they? Wouldn't you?

A job is only worth as much as it takes to fill it. Setting artificially high wages is counter productive. Labor is, and always will be a commodity.
Hypothetical scenario: your union calls for a strike and the members agree and walk out. You are replaced by scabs. Everyone is pissed... except for you. You willingly concede that you were making too much money, drop your sign and go home.

Wow, man. The world either needs more people like you, or less - I can't decide which.

1. I would never belong to a union unless forced to in order to get a job (a reality I find absolutely despicable).
2. I would never actively protest.
3. "Scabs" are merely workers who have every right to do a job they were hired for.
4. A union's ONLY bargaining chip should be the cost of replacing and training new workers.

Unions create a sense of entitlement and low productivity when taken too far. Laws like this Canadian law only make that worse.
Hah, I like your stipulation on point #1. You wouldn't belong to a union UNLESS you were "forced to" for employment reasons. So you're no different than any union worker out there. Do you think their initial reason for seeking employment is to be part of a union? Of course it's not, it's for a paycheque and a living. Everyone's got their own boat to float, union members are no different. Geez, you make them sound like inferior creatures!

Unions create a sense of entitlement and low productivity when taken too far.
I couldn't agree more but they DO have their place in society and serve a purpose.

Anyway, it's not a "law" yet.

You think #1 is funny? Did you know there are some professions in some areas where you cannot practice your trade without belonging to a union? Ther are some companies just like that as well. You may think it's funny, I think it's shockingly depressing.

Maybe you misunderstood. I would not belong to a union unless I was FORCED to to be able to work. Think about that for a second. Some people are FORCED to join to a union simply to practice their trade or join a company.
You're good at using Wikipedia. Find some examples. I'm sure there are some out there and I'm sure they are a lot less OUTRAGEOUS than you purport them to be.
DID they have a place in society? Yes. Do they now? Very little. In fact, I cannot think of one useful thing a union has done in 4 decades.
Stop the press. Amused *might* be admitting that he doesn't know something.

Whatever. Apparently since I am anti-scab, I am pro-union. :roll:
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: meltdown75
I wonder if you would have the same attitude if you were working on a line somewhere and went on strike only to have some scab come in and do your job for half the money.

That's the problem with union talk on this board. Most of the people that run unions and their members through the mud have never been a part of either. Put yourself in their position.

I'm not pro-union by any stretch but the anti-union attitude here is has always irked me.
I've been in a union. They suck. Took money out of my paycheck every week and gave nothing back. I could not refuse membership either. Unions are nothing more than extortion groups that strong-arm workers with false promises and then steal large percentages of "dues" from those workers' paycheques without ever giving benefits in return.

Screw 'em all.

ZV
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: meltdown75
All scabs do is interfere with the inevitable, which is the company and the union working out their issues.
Which is precisely why companies should be allowed to fire striking workers.

ZV
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Hypothetical scenario: your union calls for a strike and the members agree and walk out. You are replaced by scabs. Everyone is pissed... except for you. You willingly concede that you were making too much money, drop your sign and go home.

Wow, man. The world either needs more people like you, or less - I can't decide which.
I would know the labor market better than that and I wouldn't strike. What kind of idiot strikes without looking at the overall market for their labor? To hell with what the majority of the union agrees. Union membership, in almost all cases, is NOT voluntary. It's mandated by unfair laws that allow a "union shop". They can force me to "join" in order to have a job, and they can extort "dues" from my paycheck, but they damn sure can't force me to walk out.

ZV
 

meltdown75

Lifer
Nov 17, 2004
37,558
7
81
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: meltdown75
I wonder if you would have the same attitude if you were working on a line somewhere and went on strike only to have some scab come in and do your job for half the money.

That's the problem with union talk on this board. Most of the people that run unions and their members through the mud have never been a part of either. Put yourself in their position.

I'm not pro-union by any stretch but the anti-union attitude here is has always irked me.
I've been in a union. They suck. Took money out of my paycheck every week and gave nothing back. I could not refuse membership either. Unions are nothing more than extortion groups that strong-arm workers with false promises and then steal large percentages of "dues" from those workers' paycheques without ever giving benefits in return.

Screw 'em all.

ZV
Yeah, well I've been in several unions, and none of them sucked.
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: meltdown75
All scabs do is interfere with the inevitable, which is the company and the union working out their issues.
Which is precisely why companies should be allowed to fire striking workers.

ZV
Not even going to reply to that one.
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Hypothetical scenario: your union calls for a strike and the members agree and walk out. You are replaced by scabs. Everyone is pissed... except for you. You willingly concede that you were making too much money, drop your sign and go home.

Wow, man. The world either needs more people like you, or less - I can't decide which.
I would know the labor market better than that and I wouldn't strike. What kind of idiot strikes without looking at the overall market for their labor? To hell with what the majority of the union agrees. Union membership, in almost all cases, is NOT voluntary. It's mandated by unfair laws that allow a "union shop". They can force me to "join" in order to have a job, and they can extort "dues" from my paycheck, but they damn sure can't force me to walk out.

ZV
:cookie:

Yikes, I'm under attack by the "elite" of ATOT with the American flag avatars!! TEH NOES
 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
1
0
Yea, unions rock. Several local companies pay their workers over $25.00 to do jobs that would normally pay $11.00. Unions haven't done anything worth while for anyone in the last 4 decades other than drive up prices, force businesses to fold, and drive companies to leave the US. I've been a member of a union and worked along side union workers. The tensions at any union controlled company are a lot higher than a non union company. At one company I worked for, a supervisor would get jumped on if he was within 10 feet of any machine, cart, material, or even tool. I loved watching someone getting paid $30 an hour to make sure a hopper didn't get too full and if it did, then he would press a button then sat back down and slept. I also like how a lot of unions around here protect family members with thick corruption. I worked at a call center that took attendance calls for a large company and saw it daily. The union steward's kid would call in 3 times a week and still manage to get a full paycheck.

It's sad a government is moving to protect an obsolete organization.