Selling them is against the TOS, of Everquest(enforced), SWG(enforced), DAoC(enforced), Asherons Call(not enforced), Asherons Call 2(not enforced). You do not own the items in the game. Claiming you own them, and then selling them, also violates copyright laws. At anytime the item can be taken from you by the games developer if they choose to remove items that are unbalanced. At any time you could lose the item due to server errors, and you wont get it back. You do NOT own these items. You have access to them through gameplay, however, everything in the game world solely belongs to the developer/server owner, not the people paying a fee to play.
Selling them is against the TOS, of Everquest(enforced), SWG(enforced), DAoC(enforced), Asherons Call(not enforced), Asherons Call 2(not enforced). You do not own the items in the game. Claiming you own them, and then selling them, also violates copyright laws. At anytime the item can be taken from you by the games developer if they choose to remove items that are unbalanced. At any time you could lose the item due to server errors, and you wont get it back. You do NOT own these items. You have access to them through gameplay, however, everything in the game world solely belongs to the developer/server owner, not the people paying a fee to play.
Thats an entirely different issue. You have zero rights to selling virtual ingame items. They are not yours.
The game is not real?? then why are people paying $50.00 for a CD that has the game on it?? It's STILL intellectual property and 00jones does have a point.
How would you feel if there's a game where the goal was to molest as many children and rape as many women as you can? It's just a game, right?
batmang
Diamond Member
- Jul 16, 2003
- 3,020
- 1
- 81
think of it this way. if it werent for violent games, think about how crazy kids of today would be without games to play. it would be insane. think about how in the 50/60's teenagers did crazy sh1t. my dad used to put 2 cats in a pillow case and tie it up. he did crazy sh1t like that cause there was nothing else to do. if anything the people who say games are bad should thanks games. id much rather have my child play games then going outside and trying to hit cars with rocks or something really stupid like that. i know when i was a kid i did some realllllly dumb stuff.
video games are a great solution to bordem.
video games are a great solution to bordem.
The game is real but you do not own it. Even if you pay for it, you do not own it. You own a license to use it, that can be termitated(online games), by the developer/publisher. You do not own virtual items. You do not have the legal rights to them. You can not legally sell them.
Any case that goes to court, over suffering losses from a result of buying/selling virtual items, will be thrown out, because at no time did you own the items in the game world.
Now buying something off ebay, paying the seller money, and then he never gives you anything in return, now that is a crime, its fraud, possibely several types.
is it really as cut and dry as that? or is it something that will evolve over time?
intellectual property is the future and yet it is the hardest thing to define and contain.
Actually it is that cut and dry. The developers own the game, the servers, everything on them. They could shut down the servers at anytime and you have no legal recourse. Its silly to say you own virtual items, cause you dont.
how about another analogy.
Does any developer actually own the platform he is developing on? do programmers OWN a copy of C++ or have they just licensed it?
why is it that when they use a platform to create something, that something becomes theirs (game developers for eg) and yet when gamers use the "game" platform and create something within the rules as set forth by the game why are they not allowed to possess that item?
BTW, it should be considered theft if you steal something in game. To you, the value of that supersword of slaying might not mean anything, but to those that play the game, that might mean $1000 real life cash (since that's how much they can go for in real cash). The people who are stealing these items, are taking valuables from other players. It's like saying lets not prosecute somebody who stole a painting of the Mona Lisa. To me, that has no value, it's just an old painting that i can find a duplicate for easily. But to somebody out there, it's value is real. And it's the same as these online games. Heck, we shouldn't prosecute people who rob banks either, since they're only stealing paper notes, right?
Because they agreed to the rules of the game before they played it. In most MMORPG, you have to agree to a disclaimer everytime you play, that in essence says the game is theres, and anything in the game belongs to them, not you. It's like being an engineer in say Bell Research Labs... you get to be an engineer, with almost unlimited resources, but whatever you discover/create, is owned by Bell.
EXACTLY, it has value because it has a market value. people are willing to pay for it, trade for it, then it has value. now the question is, who does that value "BELONG" to. the creators of the "game" or the creator of the "item" in the game.
Developing a game, you are creating original, unuiqe code(for the most part), when you have items in a virtual world, you are not creating them, the game developers did, not you. Its set in stone, you arent creating its, its already predefined and created. The analogy doesnt work.
Something can NOT be stolen from you if YOU DO NOT OWN IT in the first place. You have no legal rights to virtual items. The only people that have legal rights to virtual items are their actual owner, the developer/publisher.
Depends:
Crime:
Legit ingame means (ie: stealing in uo).
Punishment:
None, unless caught by some ingame rule.
Crime:
Exploiting ingame means (ie: box stacking to take over someones house in uo).
Punishment:
Banning and return of original items to original owner.
Crime:
Using out-of-game means (ie: hacking the server to steal passwords on accounts).
Punishment:
Banning / Police / Whatnot. This should not be tolerated period.
So yea, there is a broad range.
EDIT: Digitalsm, are you trying to say that it is ok to take whatever you want in an online world simply because the owner doesn't own the content? If I connect to someones C: drive and copy their Photoshop folder, it is ok because they didn't create photoshop?
Crime:
Legit ingame means (ie: stealing in uo).
Punishment:
None, unless caught by some ingame rule.
Crime:
Exploiting ingame means (ie: box stacking to take over someones house in uo).
Punishment:
Banning and return of original items to original owner.
Crime:
Using out-of-game means (ie: hacking the server to steal passwords on accounts).
Punishment:
Banning / Police / Whatnot. This should not be tolerated period.
So yea, there is a broad range.
EDIT: Digitalsm, are you trying to say that it is ok to take whatever you want in an online world simply because the owner doesn't own the content? If I connect to someones C: drive and copy their Photoshop folder, it is ok because they didn't create photoshop?
If you've actually played these games, it belongs to the game company. Every MMORPG game out there, you have to agree to this disclaimer before playing. That's because if it really did belong to you, then the game developers wouldn't be able to do anything about it. if you've played these games, you'll know things get 'nerfed' all the time... that is, they get reduced in power or removed from the game before it was found to be unbalancing. If people really did 'own' these items, imagine all the lawsuits everytime the developers try to balance their game....
It's not very different than pen and paper gaming. You don't really own anything in those either... the Dungeon Master or Game Master is GOD, what they say goes. If they say you're character is dead, your character is dead.
I think this whole thing is a crock of crap.
For one, our police force has enough to do in their spare time already. They don't need thousands of nerds complaining everday that someone took their famed Magic Wand +40. Especially because tracking down a culprit would take more effort than it's worth.
Secondly, how are you going to prosecute something that holds no true value? Yeah, the CD has value, but no one stole your CD. You can still play the game. How can you get so upset because someone took something that really only makes up a few lines of code? My brother turned on my gamecube once and erased my PSO data. Does that mean he should go to jail?
The EULA/TOS have all control over the game, which I'm sure it's stated that nothing that happens in the game can ever be used as grounds for a legal argument. If someone gets angry and says they are gonna kill you, does that mean you run out and get a restraining order and file harassment charges?
For one, our police force has enough to do in their spare time already. They don't need thousands of nerds complaining everday that someone took their famed Magic Wand +40. Especially because tracking down a culprit would take more effort than it's worth.
Secondly, how are you going to prosecute something that holds no true value? Yeah, the CD has value, but no one stole your CD. You can still play the game. How can you get so upset because someone took something that really only makes up a few lines of code? My brother turned on my gamecube once and erased my PSO data. Does that mean he should go to jail?
The EULA/TOS have all control over the game, which I'm sure it's stated that nothing that happens in the game can ever be used as grounds for a legal argument. If someone gets angry and says they are gonna kill you, does that mean you run out and get a restraining order and file harassment charges?
CubicZirconia
Diamond Member
- Nov 24, 2001
- 5,193
- 0
- 71
But if the game allows people to steal from each other, what's the problem? It would be an entirely different thing if these people were illegally hacking the game and taking items that don't belong to them. But they're not. They are virtually banding together and taking people's stuff. It's part of the game. Now, these people shouldn't be selling the stuff once they get it, but there's nothing illegal about the actually taking it. If you don't want to lose your stuff you should protect it better. If you can't protect it, too bad, that's part of the game too.
The bank/bank customer own those notes. There is actually a vaild claim of ownership in that case. There is not a vaild claim of ownership when a game player says they owned this item, and it was stolen from them. They never legally owned the rights to the item.
Sure they can. Theft doesn't mean the item has to belong to you, just as long as it was in your posession when it happened. There are lots of things in daily life that you don't own, but are in possession of, and if it gets stolen, you have every right to legal actions. If i rent a HDTV set from the local electronic rental center, and somebody steals it from my house, i have every right to pursue legal actions. Same thing with if i had a copy of Microsoft Office XP. According to the disclaimer, i don't own the product, i'm just using it. But if it gets stolen from me, i have every legal right to press criminal charges.
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
- Feb 15, 2000
- 20,551
- 2
- 81
I believe the question is this:
You put your time and effort into something, is that something WORTH anything? Do you have possession of it, or is it more like a rental? Meaning, who really owns it, the game company or yourself?
You put your time and effort into something, is that something WORTH anything? Do you have possession of it, or is it more like a rental? Meaning, who really owns it, the game company or yourself?
Not all games allow theft (infact, i cant' think of a single one). And yes, a lot of the theft does occur due to hacking into others accounts.
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