Ubisoft: PC Piracy Rate 93-95%

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Annisman*

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2010
1,931
95
91
You forget always on DRM that prevent legitimate customers from playing their game. Cracked and pirated versions dont deal with it. What these publishers should do is just let it go. The pirate rates are what they are. If someone wants to pirate a game and doesnt want to pay, you cant make them pay. Even if pirates cant crack the game, it doesnt mean they'll buy it. They can inconvenience paying customers a million times over, and that has yet to really stop the pirates. It just reduces the number of paying customers who are willing to deal with all the BS.

Out of curiosity, what non perishable item, that you cannot try before you buy, doesnt allow returns or have a warranty? I think software is the only product that doesnt have some form of customer protection.

I may be wrong to say 'lots of items' but some things come to mind like mp3/cd downloads, movies, unfortunately for my position, I think those would also be considered software.

However, what I am mostly pointing out is that not every product can be returned if you 'don't like' it. I mean, if somebody plays a fully functioning game but hated the story and characters, should they be entitled to a refund ? Now if the game can't launch or whatever, I totally agree there needs to be a refund.

I remember a thread floating around here where a user couldn't get BF3 to launch via Origin and it took him like 20 emails and 3 weeks to get a refund. Software desperately needs SOME kind of return policy, if anything, to force developers to put out a functioning product.
 
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Annisman*

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2010
1,931
95
91
Exactly.

If you can't get a demo or a less than legitimate copy to run there is no point in buying the game.

Reviews help a little but they cannot address compatibility issues for every possible combination of hardware. A game might run fine on every other computer in the world, except yours. That don't help you much. 99.99% of everyone else telling you a game is great and runs no problem on their system is no help at all.

Maybe you have been lucky and just have not had the kind of poor experiences some of us have had?

Oh, please beleive me, I've gone through it all. GFWL...broken games (ETW, Stalker COP at release) Completely non functiioning games, driver issues, crashes etc.

But I take it as par for the course. And generally speaking with knowledgeable purchases these problems can be avoided. (I now no longer purchase games with GFWL for example.)
 

lakedude

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2009
2,778
529
126
Annisman your responses are pretty reasonable. Now that I've been run through the ringer a few times I'm usually a little more careful but it really is amazing how poorly so many games run.
 

PrincessFrosty

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2008
2,300
68
91
www.frostyhacks.blogspot.com
It's possible this is true, that is to say the number of people pirating the game exceeds the sales by 20:1, but so what?

Pirated copies of a game DO NOT necessarily represent a lost sale, if this way of thinking were true you'd expect that sales would drop at an approximately equal proportion to the increase in piracy, but if you look at sales figures for the gaming industry they're up year on year, there is MORE money going into gaming today than there ever has been, so this idea is patently false.

Purely from my own subjective experience, most of my gamer friends have pirated, in fact I'd say all of them have at some point. Some of them pirate quite a lot of stuff, but one thing remains the same, ALL of them buy games and most of us spend a large proportion of our disposable income on gaming. If you compare this with constantly strong sales despite massive piracy rates it leads to the almost inevitable conclusion that gamers are pirating stuff they simply cannot afford, there is SIGNIFICANTLY more games to buy and play than what the average person can afford, so some get bought and remainder gets pirated.

It makes me question, what is the point in complaining about piracy and pursuing pirates, if these people don't really have the resources to actually pay for their library of pirated media then what exactly do you expect to gain from it...you go from:

Someones not paying for my game but can play it anyway...

to

Someones not paying for my game but can't play it now - hah!

As a business model it's just really dumb, your net gain is NOTHING, if you genuinely want peoples to pay for your stuff you do what you've always done in business and make a product that appeals to your target audience more than your competitors product. Yet we see people CONSTANTLY slamming Ubisoft for always on DRM, for shoddy console ports and the rest of it.

I'm not saying piracy is right, it's illegal and should be discouraged, people should pay for games they like and enjoy. But I would advocate that it's not nearly as harmful as these 95% figures make out, there's NOT a corresponding 95% drop in sales, that's just completely retarded, these numbers are just thrown around for shock value.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,774
0
76
UbiMe: Game consumer theft rate 50-80%

In a recent interview I announced that up to 50-80% of my video games have not been worth the money I spent on them. When asked about this claim, most of the video game industry rolled their eyes and sent a thank you check to the game reviewers they paid to lie to me about how good their games were.

I went on to explain to the interviewer that between the garbage DRM, constantly broken online play in every hardware form (PC, 360, & PS3), and horribly bugged software; that at least half of the money I spent on video game software was pretty much wasted. Through further questioning, I explained that the gaming industry has similar standards in their software as the work condition standards in the Chinese factories that see people kill themselves every year due to their crappy lives and horrific treatment at work.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
I don't understand why digital sales aren't counted. You think it would be easier to track than B&M sales.

Because none of the digital retailers actually report their sales figures. I think Valve realizes they wouldn't have quite so much good will if people actually knew how much money Steam was making them lol; it would weaken the illusion that the "sales are for the gamers!" and not "the sales stack paper to the ceilings".
 

coloumb

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,069
0
81
That is the only way it could make any sense, but how many single games have been released that don't have a multiplayer component that you would want to play?

Thinking about it a bit, maybe this figure mainly applies to Ubisoft. Ubisoft does seem to make more single player focused games than most, and maybe with their DRM and always online requirement, even for single player, make people want to pirate their games more. Or at the least, crack them. I usually wait for big sales when buying Ubisoft games to offset the hassle. I guess I can understand if more people just said F them and pirated it. Not to mention markets like Russia, Asia, South America, etc who will pirate or buy bootleg for one reason or another.

But I'm thinking if it was really 93-95% on PC, they would have left the market a long time ago.

I wouldn't be surprised if those same people view games as "disposable entertainment" - they aren't interested in the MP component - they're only interested in playing the game and then throwing it out. Agree about your thoughts on Ubisoft - people don't want to put up with "always on DRM" for a single player game - they want to play it at THEIR own leisure whether they have an internet connection or not.

A lot of companies big and small stay in the business as legitimate sales make up for "no sale" [pirated copies] - it's been happening since the first program was "pirated".

I've since lost the youtube video - but it was about a couple [husband/wife] who were interviewed about piracy rates on the word processing software they developed for the apple 2. They figured they sold about 2-5 copies per 100 but would still gladly help people if they called up because it would generate more sales of the program. Profits from the few sales they had was enough to keep them in business.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
There is absolutely no good, proper, or acceptable form of pirating period.

Some people here seem to think that try it before you buy it is acceptable, espescially if you end up purchasing the game afterwards.

The problem with that approach is that developers only see it as a pirated copy of the game, they can in no way know that one of their legitimate copies was sold to somebody who pirated it to try it, liked it, and then bought it.

If every single person did this method the very best case scenario would be (for example) 2 million pirated copies and 2 million legitimate copies sold. So best case is (an apparent) 50% pirate rate to the developer.

Factor in that most pirates download the game and never buy it afterwards, or don't purchase it because they 'didn't like it' then we're talking about massive amounts of piracy. Enough to kill the industry.

The second point is that try before you buy just doesn't make sense. There are review sites, user reviews, information in articles and message boards that should give users pleanty of input to decided whether a purchase should be made. Also, most products consumers buy just don't work like that. If you go into Target and buy an air conditioner you can't ask them to let you use it for a week at your house before you buy it. Why do PC games have to be any different ?

Lastly, and I know I will get flamed for this. Stealing is just wrong, whether it is physical property or intellectual property, it is somebody else's work, and they need to make a living too.

So, to start off with, I absolutely agree that there is never any good reason to steal (pirate). Quite simply, if you can't afford it, or might not like it once you do buy it, you shouldn't have it. Period.

However, quite a lot of the rest of your post is not correct. Yes, there are numerous review sites out there. and yes, there are bunches of individual posts and even Utube videos of most game play. However, quite a lot of the reviews you read are hype, or people on the internet with an agenda and who don't represent the game accurately. So, you can read all of them and still not be guaranteed to have a coherent view or valid opinion on a game.

On the subject of 'Try before you buy', there are a number of precedents for try before you buy. In the Music industry, the industry that is closest to gaming in product and distribution, you can listen to individual tracks and sometimes the entire album on public radio without spending a cent. And this is common practice. With movies (another media entertainment similar to gaming), you can see them in the theater or on TV before you purchase the DVD/Blu-ray. Cars can be test driven. Furniture, you can sit on and try out before you buy. Clothes you can try on in the store. Books you can read in the store or chapters online. All of which are try before you buy. Even food items are sometimes offered as samples at the store.

Also, as far as an artist getting paid for their work. I whole heatedly agree. To a point. Absolutely a fair days wages for a fair day's work. Absolutely! And most developers get that. Most developers are paid an hourly wage for their work. Maybe they get a percentage of the profits, but more often than not, it is a flat fee for their time. So they are getting their fair due (or if not fair, at least what they contracted for).

However, the executives at companies like EA and Ubisoft (and others), want MORE. They want royalties. They want a percentage of every copy on the market. They want more than their fair due. In short, they want a percentage based not on having done the work, but on distributing the product. So the delivery boy wants to get paid more than the painter.

And cry foul when they don't get it. Are they showing a profit, even after paying the 'Artists' for their work? Yes. If they weren't they wouldn't be in that business. Are profits going up? Again, Yes. Likewise, these guys aren't in the business of losing money. In short, pirating doesn't take money out of the pockets of the artists or the people who do the work. it takes money out of the pockets of the execs who want to live fat off of the labor of others.

Also, many production companies will roll out any old crap, finished or not, and try and bilk the public into purchasing it. When sales bomb, instead of owning up to the fact that they tried to push out a game before it was ready, or that it was a crap concept with a coat of paint slapped on it, they cry foul and piracy. Sometimes they even push out crap merely because they don't want to be bothered to create a good game, but only want to grab more money (Diablo 3). Yet they will cry foul on the part of the consumer and say "you shouldn't pirate". They are right. The consumers shouldn't pirate. But then the publishers are just as bad as they are stealing from the public.

In closing, again. Stealing is WRONG in my book. I do not participate in it. I do not condone it in any form. And I do not think that someone can justify it. but this goes both ways. Publishers shouldn't pump out crap and try and steal money from their consumers either. Still stealing shouldn't be done on either side and is unjustifiable either way.
 
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aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
21,126
3,651
126
now that i read this article better.

i think we all mistook the CEO's comments.

He's not saying 93-95% of sales are being pirated... i think he's saying TITLES.

So out of the 93-95% of the games they make, there is always at least 1 copy which gets pirated.

That also translates to 93-95% of the titles they make people find interesting enough to pirate.
Which still is a shock to me, as i wont even touch a pirated UBISoft game even.

But unless someone wants to correct me, i think this is what the article is trying to imply.
5 games, where u have 4 of it being pirated... which means.. 80% pirate rate on titles... but can be like 10% pirated on vol.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
now that i read this article better.

i think we all mistook the CEO's comments.

He's not saying 93-95% of sales are being pirated... i think he's saying TITLES.

So out of the 93-95% of the games they make, there is always at least 1 copy which gets pirated.

That also translates to 93-95% of the titles they make people find interesting enough to pirate.
Which still is a shock to me, as i wont even touch a pirated UBISoft game even.

But unless someone wants to correct me, i think this is what the article is trying to imply.
5 games, where u have 4 of it being pirated... which means.. 80% pirate rate on titles... but can be like 10% pirated on vol.

"It's a way to get closer to your customers, to make sure you have a revenue. On PC it's only around five to seven per cent of the players who pay for F2P, but normally on PC it's only about five to seven per cent who pay anyway, the rest is pirated. It's around a 93-95 per cent piracy rate, so it ends up at about the same percentage. The revenue we get from the people who play is more long term, so we can continue to bring content."

they are saying quite specifically that only 5 - 7 percent of all product on the market is legitimately paid for.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
So, to start off with, I absolutely agree that there is never any good reason to steal (pirate). Quite simply, if you can't afford it, or might not like it once you do buy it, you shouldn't have it. Period.

However, quite a lot of the rest of your post is not correct. Yes, there are numerous review sites out there. and yes, there are bunches of individual posts and even Utube videos of most game play. However, quite a lot of the reviews you read are hype, or people on the internet with an agenda and who don't represent the game accurately. So, you can read all of them and still not be guaranteed to have a coherent view or valid opinion on a game.

On the subject of 'Try before you buy', there are a number of precedents for try before you buy. In the Music industry, the industry that is closest to gaming in product and distribution, you can listen to individual tracks and sometimes the entire album on public radio without spending a cent. And this is common practice. With movies (another media entertainment similar to gaming), you can see them in the theater or on TV before you purchase the DVD/Blu-ray. Cars can be test driven. Furniture, you can sit on and try out before you buy. Clothes you can try on in the store. Books you can read in the store or chapters online. All of which are try before you buy. Even food items are sometimes offered as samples at the store.

Also, as far as an artist getting paid for their work. I whole heatedly agree. To a point. Absolutely a fair days wages for a fair day's work. Absolutely! And most developers get that. Most developers are paid an hourly wage for their work. Maybe they get a percentage of the profits, but more often than not, it is a flat fee for their time. So they are getting their fair due (or if not fair, at least what they contracted for).

However, the executives at companies like EA and Ubisoft (and others), want MORE. They want royalties. They want a percentage of every copy on the market. They want more than their fair due. In short, they want a percentage based not on having done the work, but on distributing the product. So the delivery boy wants to get paid more than the painter.

And cry foul when they don't get it. Are they showing a profit, even after paying the 'Artists' for their work? Yes. If they weren't they wouldn't be in that business. Are profits going up? Again, Yes. Likewise, these guys aren't in the business of losing money. In short, pirating doesn't take money out of the pockets of the artists or the people who do the work. it takes money out of the pockets of the execs who want to live fat off of the labor of others.

Also, many production companies will roll out any old crap, finished or not, and try and bilk the public into purchasing it. When sales bomb, instead of owning up to the fact that they tried to push out a game before it was ready, or that it was a crap concept with a coat of paint slapped on it, they cry foul and piracy. Sometimes they even push out crap merely because they don't want to be bothered to create a good game, but only want to grab more money (Diablo 3). Yet they will cry foul on the part of the consumer and say "you shouldn't pirate". They are right. The consumers shouldn't pirate. But then the publishers are just as bad as they are stealing from the public.

In closing, again. Stealing is WRONG in my book. I do not participate in it. I do not condone it in any form. And I do not think that someone can justify it. but this goes both ways. Publishers shouldn't pump out crap and try and steal money from their consumers either. Still stealing shouldn't be done on either side and is unjustifiable either way.

Profits are down. Revenue is down. NOT up. This applies to EA, T2, and Blizzard. It's not isolated.

I'm hoping the big distributors go away. We don't need them anymore. Let's go back to basics and digitally release most software.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

Nvidiaguy07

Platinum Member
Feb 22, 2008
2,846
4
81
Can you imagine how many copies of Horsez ubi would have sold if not for piracy?
horsez-pc.jpg
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
Profits are down. Revenue is down. NOT up. This applies to EA, T2, and Blizzard. It's not isolated.

Does this detract from the fundamental message of my statements?

Profits may be down, but they are still profits. So the execs are only making 120% more than they should rather than 150% more than they should. And the artists themselves don't get anything extra.
 
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shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,082
136
Hypothetically if Russia and China are pirating billions of copies then maybe I could see that being true. But lets be real, they were never gonna buy all those games anyway. Ubi isnt LOSING sales. They WANT those sales, but that doesnt make it happen.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
Hypothetically if Russia and China are pirating billions of copies then maybe I could see that being true. But lets be real, they were never gonna buy all those games anyway. Ubi isnt LOSING sales. They WANT those sales, but that doesnt make it happen.

More or less. I am quite certain that they are 'Anticipating' sales that aren't necessarily a guaranteed thing. But that is part and parcel to them really stacking the deck because they want to make a business case for F2P (also known interchangeably as P2W).

I think Douglas Adams said it best in that:

“It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.” - Douglas Adams

Or the exact reverse. "We know that everyone in the world will want to play our games because we are Ubisoft! And we make nothing but AWESOME games, even if we are the only ones who say so. Since everyone will want to play the games and not everyone is paying for it, it stands to reason that the ones who aren't paying for it are pirating it."
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,082
136
Well, they could also have torrent data and based on the IP addresses know EXACTLY who's pirating.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
Does this detract from the fundamental message of my statements?

Profits may be down, but they are still profits. So the execs are only making 120% more than they should rather than 150% more than they should. And the artists themselves don't get anything extra.

Sure. Take2 lost $100M in the first quarter of the year. Large companies are built on growth and profits. Losing revenue is a HUGE issue, and causing investors to dump the stock in droves. I don't see it really getting better.

Your post reads much like other who advocate piracy because all it does is 'take a little bit out of the pockets of the rich'. Unfortunately, the current structure of the majority of the industry relies on the distributor getting the lion's share of the money. Why? Because they are often the investor, and small devs cannot afford to front $100M on a AAA title that takes 2-3 years to build. [Edit: Just to be clear - I am not saying you support piracy]

That's why the industry needs a shake-down. The devs needs to work on making good titles, investors need to work more closely with the devs themselves, and then digital distribution helps them cut the fees associated with released the game by a HUGE amount. That means more money in the pockets of the actual game devs and less in the 'fat cats' who just release and hype the games.
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
12,589
0
76
I doubt there are really that many more illegitimate download/sales of a title than there are legitimate sales, but it's an ambiguous statement. On the other hand, I wouldn't be at all surprised if "93-95% of PC gamers have pirated software" were true.

That's exactly the case. They are packaging a stat that they found where 93-95% of people have pirated a game at one time or another and using that stat completely disproportionately. BS.

The fact is, I've purchased 4-5 games just in the last couple months, not including the Steam Summer sale. CS:GO, SWTOR and Torchlight II all in like the last couple weeks.

So fuck them, I'm pirating 100% of their shit for now on.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
Sure. Take2 lost $100M in the first quarter of the year. Large companies are built on growth and profits. Losing revenue is a HUGE issue, and causing investors to dump the stock in droves. I don't see it really getting better.

Your post reads much like other who advocate piracy because all it does is 'take a little bit out of the pockets of the rich'. Unfortunately, the current structure of the majority of the industry relies on the distributor getting the lion's share of the money. Why? Because they are often the investor, and small devs cannot afford to front $100M on a AAA title that takes 2-3 years to build. [Edit: Just to be clear - I am not saying you support piracy]

That's why the industry needs a shake-down. The devs needs to work on making good titles, investors need to work more closely with the devs themselves, and then digital distribution helps them cut the fees associated with released the game by a HUGE amount. That means more money in the pockets of the actual game devs and less in the 'fat cats' who just release and hype the games.

I guess i was taking affront to the fact that you took one line in my statement and responded as if it refutes the entire thing.

At the end of the day, I don't support piracy. but I also think that the other poster didn't know what they were talking about either. There are legitimate complaints on the part of the consumer. And I think the Publishers need to start addressing them instead of fabricating false justifications for going further in the wrong direction. And as such, they are just as guilty as those whom they claim have wronged them with piracy.

Does that excuse the act? No. Two wrongs don't make a right. But the publishers are never going to see it that way so what's the point in arguing?
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
Nope they make it free, according to Ubisoft.

No. According to Ubisoft, it makes an excuse to do P2W style games. Apparently, piracy is damaging enough to their well being that they have to line their pockets with fees and profits from micro-transactions. It's a hard life.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,774
0
76
Hypothetically if Russia and China are pirating billions of copies then maybe I could see that being true. But lets be real, they were never gonna buy all those games anyway. Ubi isnt LOSING sales. They WANT those sales, but that doesnt make it happen.

Hey, they're the assholes that wanted the "global economy". They brought that shit on themselves, and fucked over middle America in the process.

Keep the money in America, where WE ACTUALLY PAY FOR OUR SHIT.
 

Annisman*

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2010
1,931
95
91
So, to start off with, I absolutely agree that there is never any good reason to steal (pirate). Quite simply, if you can't afford it, or might not like it once you do buy it, you shouldn't have it. Period.

However, quite a lot of the rest of your post is not correct. Yes, there are numerous review sites out there. and yes, there are bunches of individual posts and even Utube videos of most game play. However, quite a lot of the reviews you read are hype, or people on the internet with an agenda and who don't represent the game accurately. So, you can read all of them and still not be guaranteed to have a coherent view or valid opinion on a game.

On the subject of 'Try before you buy', there are a number of precedents for try before you buy. In the Music industry, the industry that is closest to gaming in product and distribution, you can listen to individual tracks and sometimes the entire album on public radio without spending a cent. And this is common practice. With movies (another media entertainment similar to gaming), you can see them in the theater or on TV before you purchase the DVD/Blu-ray. Cars can be test driven. Furniture, you can sit on and try out before you buy. Clothes you can try on in the store. Books you can read in the store or chapters online. All of which are try before you buy. Even food items are sometimes offered as samples at the store.

Also, as far as an artist getting paid for their work. I whole heatedly agree. To a point. Absolutely a fair days wages for a fair day's work. Absolutely! And most developers get that. Most developers are paid an hourly wage for their work. Maybe they get a percentage of the profits, but more often than not, it is a flat fee for their time. So they are getting their fair due (or if not fair, at least what they contracted for).

However, the executives at companies like EA and Ubisoft (and others), want MORE. They want royalties. They want a percentage of every copy on the market. They want more than their fair due. In short, they want a percentage based not on having done the work, but on distributing the product. So the delivery boy wants to get paid more than the painter.

And cry foul when they don't get it. Are they showing a profit, even after paying the 'Artists' for their work? Yes. If they weren't they wouldn't be in that business. Are profits going up? Again, Yes. Likewise, these guys aren't in the business of losing money. In short, pirating doesn't take money out of the pockets of the artists or the people who do the work. it takes money out of the pockets of the execs who want to live fat off of the labor of others.

Also, many production companies will roll out any old crap, finished or not, and try and bilk the public into purchasing it. When sales bomb, instead of owning up to the fact that they tried to push out a game before it was ready, or that it was a crap concept with a coat of paint slapped on it, they cry foul and piracy. Sometimes they even push out crap merely because they don't want to be bothered to create a good game, but only want to grab more money (Diablo 3). Yet they will cry foul on the part of the consumer and say "you shouldn't pirate". They are right. The consumers shouldn't pirate. But then the publishers are just as bad as they are stealing from the public.

In closing, again. Stealing is WRONG in my book. I do not participate in it. I do not condone it in any form. And I do not think that someone can justify it. but this goes both ways. Publishers shouldn't pump out crap and try and steal money from their consumers either. Still stealing shouldn't be done on either side and is unjustifiable either way.

You've given me alot to think about, thanks for the response.