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Ubisoft: AMD's Mantle API is a double-edged sword

C

csbin

Senior member
http://www.worldsfactory.net/2013/10/11/ubisoft-amds-mantle-api-is-a-double-edged-sword

Speaking with DSOGaming, Luc Poirier, Lead Programmer at Ubisoft for Assassin’s Creed IV: Black Flag, explained that while Mantle can be beneficial, it is also a double-edged sword with its own fair share of issues.

On one hand, we are very excited by the Mantle API. Since we are used to low-level API because of our work on consoles, it is not something that we are afraid of. We are confident that we could use it to deliver significant performance boost to our games.
On the other hand, we are a little bit wary about it, because it would mean another renderer to maintain. The more renderers we have, the more we have to split our time between each of them, the less time we have to improve the visual look and performance of our game. So, it’s really a double-edged sword: we will have to analyse the pros and cons before taking a decision.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, this has been my fear all along. While having Mantle or generally a low-level API could potentially bring performance gains, in order to truly exploit it this API should be the only one used by programmers.
Instead, we already have DirectX, OpenGL, not to mention Sony’s libGCM. This can only mean more fragmentation and more problems for poor developers, who will have to maintain a multitude of renderers, meaning that most likely none of them will be truly optimized. Worse, the actual games might very well suffer for this. Coupled with the fact that Mantle requires more work than a higher level API, this doesn’t bode well at all for Mantle.
 
After other api's have been maxed out they will have no choice but to go mantle. Mantle could double or even tripple the performance in theory. Mantle will be on consoles, pc, and steambox most likely. No other api other than opengl has that reach. Its only logical to use mantle.
 
Conker10k said:
After other api's have been maxed out they will have no choice but to go mantle. Mantle could double or even tripple the performance in theory. Mantle will be on consoles, pc, and steambox most likely. No other api other than opengl has that reach. Its only logical to use mantle.
Click to expand...

Double or triple performance. Dream on.
 
Kind of contradicts what AMD said about developers 'wanting' them to build an API like Mantle.

He is only one, but considering his position and the company he works for, you'd think he would mention something about "glad AMD did this....we've been asking for someone to do it for a while..."
 
Teizo said:
Kind of contradicts what AMD said about developers 'wanting' them to build an API like Mantle.
Click to expand...

It doesn't contradict what AMD said in the slightest. Progress always has its downside, if devs want to be stuck being saddled with DX, then they will never realize the benefits of using an API that gives greater access to hardware. Yes it's a double edged sword, no doubt about it but the extra effort is worth it. That's what progress is.
 
Teizo said:
Kind of contradicts what AMD said about developers 'wanting' them to build an API like Mantle.
Click to expand...

Well, devs who wanted them to make the API and also who are paid by AMD. Ubisoft has a deal with Nvidia atm, so its natural for them to show Mantle in a different light then what DICE says.

Doesn't really seem like a negative statement tbh.
 
Devs have been talking for years about how inefficient DirectX is and how much performance is left on the table. AMD didn't pay developers and all of a sudden they had an epiphany that they needed a much more intimate API.
 
Conker10k said:
After other api's have been maxed out they will have no choice but to go mantle. Mantle could double or even tripple the performance in theory. Mantle will be on consoles, pc, and steambox most likely. No other api other than opengl has that reach. Its only logical to use mantle.
Click to expand...
Lol are u [redacted] or just in a fantasy world.It will not even do 20% gain performance

Warning issued for inappropriate language.
-- stahlhart
 
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AnandThenMan said:
It doesn't contradict what AMD said in the slightest. Progress always has its downside, if devs want to be stuck being saddled with DX, then they will never realize the benefits of using an API that gives greater access to hardware. Yes it's a double edged sword, no doubt about it but the extra effort is worth it. That's what progress is.
Click to expand...
Extra work progress for what.AMD need to pay Dev to use Mantle.Dev will not apply mantle for free and just amd because they dont own the market and if they start supporting mantle than dev will be bankrupt because only AMD user can use it and they are not the majority.Nvidia has the majority and the market
 
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csbin said:
http://www.worldsfactory.net/2013/10/11/ubisoft-amds-mantle-api-is-a-double-edged-sword

Speaking with DSOGaming, Luc Poirier, Lead Programmer at Ubisoft for Assassin’s Creed IV: Black Flag, explained that while Mantle can be beneficial, it is also a double-edged sword with its own fair share of issues.



Unfortunately, this has been my fear all along. While having Mantle or generally a low-level API could potentially bring performance gains, in order to truly exploit it this API should be the only one used by programmers.
Instead, we already have DirectX, OpenGL, not to mention Sony’s libGCM. This can only mean more fragmentation and more problems for poor developers, who will have to maintain a multitude of renderers, meaning that most likely none of them will be truly optimized. Worse, the actual games might very well suffer for this. Coupled with the fact that Mantle requires more work than a higher level API, this doesn’t bode well at all for Mantle.
Click to expand...

I'm confused - will Mantle be used on the consoles? Or is it a different mantle?

What confuses me is if mantle is used on consoles already, then isn't it *easier* if mantle is also used on the amd video cards - the developer codes for mantle, and it works on consoles and AMD too? How does that result in more fragmentation?
 
desprado said:
Extra work progress for what.AMD need to pay Dev to use Mantle.Dev will not apply mantle for free and just amd because they dont own the market and if they start supporting mantle than dev will be bankrupt because only AMD user can use it and they are not the majority.Nvidia has the majority and the market
Click to expand...

Preach on brother. You're very wise
 
Teizo said:
Kind of contradicts what AMD said about developers 'wanting' them to build an API like Mantle.
Click to expand...

A company makes bogus claims about being asked to make something by other companies - news at 11. AMD is becoming more and more like Nvidia every day.
 
tviceman said:
A company makes bogus claims about being asked to make something by other companies - news at 11. AMD is becoming more and more like Nvidia every day.
Click to expand...

Being all nice and ethical hasn't exactly worked out well for them. PC gamers seem to prefer giving their money to asshole companies actually

Warning issued for profanity.
-- stahlhart
 
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I don't know what bogus claims were made. 😕 Just because adopting a new API is not as easy as flipping a switch, all of a sudden it's AMD lying about devs wanting something better? That's quite a leap right there.
 
tviceman said:
A company makes bogus claims about being asked to make something by other companies - news at 11. AMD is becoming more and more like Nvidia every day.
Click to expand...
All company make bogus claims to make hype but at the end both will be on neutral API called Dx.
 
AnandThenMan said:
I don't know what bogus claims were made. 😕 Just because adopting a new API is not as easy as flipping a switch, all of a sudden it's AMD lying about devs wanting something better? That's quite a leap right there.
Click to expand...
If AMD is not laying than which Dev ask to make API?Why they are paying to DICE such a big amount to apply Mantle.If Dev want to low level they must be on both side because every Dev now AMD dont own the market or the shares.
 
AnandThenMan said:
Your arguments are made up of one logical fallacy after another.
Click to expand...
it is Fact for any AMD fanboy weather like or not.No Dev want to get in loss.If they start supporting Mantle and Avoid DX than Dev will only targeting AMD card which are not the majority.Dev are not naive they now even mantle improve a bit performance but Dx will be superior and main priority because it can be used by all companies.
 
csbin said:
http://www.worldsfactory.net/2013/10/11/ubisoft-amds-mantle-api-is-a-double-edged-sword

Speaking with DSOGaming, Luc Poirier, Lead Programmer at Ubisoft for Assassin’s Creed IV: Black Flag, explained that while Mantle can be beneficial, it is also a double-edged sword with its own fair share of issues.
On one hand, we are very excited by the Mantle API. Since we are used to low-level API because of our work on consoles, it is not something that we are afraid of. We are confident that we could use it to deliver significant performance boost to our games.
On the other hand, we are a little bit wary about it, because it would mean another renderer to maintain. The more renderers we have, the more we have to split our time between each of them, the less time we have to improve the visual look and performance of our game. So, it’s really a double-edged sword: we will have to analyse the pros and cons before taking a decision.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately, this has been my fear all along. While having Mantle or generally a low-level API could potentially bring performance gains, in order to truly exploit it this API should be the only one used by programmers.
Instead, we already have DirectX, OpenGL, not to mention Sony’s libGCM. This can only mean more fragmentation and more problems for poor developers, who will have to maintain a multitude of renderers, meaning that most likely none of them will be truly optimized. Worse, the actual games might very well suffer for this. Coupled with the fact that Mantle requires more work than a higher level API, this doesn’t bode well at all for Mantle.
Click to expand...

He said they are going to look at it and decide. He didn't say they were going to use it and the quality of games is going to suffer because of it. You are the one that said that.
 
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