Ubisoft: AMD's Mantle API is a double-edged sword

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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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what is the AMD driver "missing"?

driverthreading.png


Command lists can be created on multiple threads — A command list is a recorded sequence of graphics commands. With Direct3D 11, you can create command lists on multiple CPU threads, which enables parallel traversal of the scene database or physics processing on multiple threads. This frees the main rendering thread to dispatch command buffers to the hardware.
 

itsmydamnation

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2011
3,044
3,831
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ahh so an optional feature amd doesn't support means they cant make a proper driver? Does that mean NV in the DX10 days couldn't make proper hardware :rolleyes:.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
ahh so an optional feature amd doesn't support means they cant make a proper driver? Does that mean NV in the DX10 days couldn't make proper hardware :rolleyes:.

It explains why they need a new API to offset their lack of abilities in DX multithreaded performance. But not exactly putting confidence in Mantle is it. They cant make a proper DX driver, they cant make a proper OpenGL driver.
 

Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
3,251
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It explains why they need a new API to offset their lack of abilities in DX multithreaded performance. But not exactly putting confidence in Mantle is it. They cant make a proper DX driver, they cant make a proper OpenGL driver.

It is easier to make a new api and drivers for it, than just a drivers for dx? That says alot about dx...

ohh.. and I am sure your 680 supports every single feature of dx up to yet to be released dx12 ;)
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
2,346
0
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It explains why they need a new API to offset their lack of abilities in DX multithreaded performance. But not exactly putting confidence in Mantle is it. They cant make a proper DX driver, they cant make a proper OpenGL driver.

Why bother when Mantle destroys both?
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
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Isn't that just a question of the BF4 beta being in a more advanced stage of optimization for Windows 8?

The Beta is obviously poorly optimized, but 8.1 and 11.2 sound like they have some distinct changes:



"A new version of DirectX has been introduced with the new Windows 8.1 Preview. DirectX 11.2 includes the following new features:

•HLSL shader linking: Windows 8.1 Preview adds separate compilation and linking of HLSL shaders.

•GPU overlay support: GPU multi-plane overlay support keeps your gorgeous 2D art and interfaces looking their best in native resolution, while you draw your 3D scenes to a smaller, scaled frame buffer.
This feature allows the scaling and composition of two swap chains to happen automatically on the fixed-function overlays hardware, without using any GPU resources at all.

•Tiled resources: Windows 8.1 Preview includes a new Direct3D feature called tiled resources, which exposes a limited virtual graphics memory model to apps and thereby permits loose mapping between logical resource data and physical memory. This allows the creation of large logical resources that utilize small amounts of physical memory.

•Direct3D low-latency presentation API: Windows 8.1 Preview includes a new set of APIs for DirectX apps to present frames with lower latency, allowing for faster UI response.

•Frame buffer scaling: New GPU scaling lets you dynamically resize your frame buffer to keep your 3D graphics smooth.

•DXGI Trim API and map default buffer: Windows 8.1 Preview adds the new DXGI

IDXGIDevice3::Trim method, which allows DirectX apps to release device memory allocated by the graphics driver thereby reducing the app’s memory profile while it is suspended. Additionally, Windows 8.1 Preview includes a new map default buffer operation for Direct3D apps that lets your app access a GPU’s default buffers directly (if supported by the device), without the need for a more expensive intermediate copy operation to a temporary buffer."


http://www.geeks3d.com/20130627/directx-11-2-revealed-with-windows-8-1-preview/



And yes, I hate M$ for trying to get me to upgrade to a touch-screen OS in order to take advantage of this.
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,147
1,329
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Hopefully us nvidia users are not left out in the cold on DX 11.2.

Considering nvidia's Kepler cards don't even support DX 11.1 at the hardware level and only do some of the dx 11.1 features via software, will we even have support at all for DX 11.2 ? Considering they don't support DX 11.1 with hardware, there will be even less hardware support available for DX 11.2...

AMD may wind up having the API advantage not just with Mantle in Battlefield 4, which is a given, but also with DX 11.1 and 11.2.

Hopefully not!
 

itsmydamnation

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2011
3,044
3,831
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It explains why they need a new API to offset their lack of abilities in DX multithreaded performance. But not exactly putting confidence in Mantle is it. They cant make a proper DX driver, they cant make a proper OpenGL driver.

see now your moving goal posts pouring on the hyperbol and trying to manipulate the truth.

here are some facts

1. draw calls are just one part of DX, you can push 50k draw calls ( a frame) on a single thread anyway, there have been very few cases where this is actual an issue.
2. mantle is about way more then Draw calls
3. DLC are very static, they are good for when you have a whole bunch of draw calls you repeat over and over, they are an incremental improvement.


I can think of one game where DCL have a negative impact for AMD. You on the other hand will happily let your own conformation bias make you think correlation equals causation.

before you go whelding your BF4 graphs again, have you even considered things like its a beta, the overhead being seen has nothing to do with DCL.
have you even considered difference in GPU uarch(SIMD vs MIMD) could also impact CPU overhead etc etc
 
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OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
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Hopefully us nvidia users are not left out in the cold on DX 11.2.

Considering nvidia's Kepler cards don't even support DX 11.1 at the hardware level and only do some of the dx 11.1 features via software, will we even have support at all for DX 11.2 ? Considering they don't support DX 11.1 with hardware, there will be even less hardware support available for DX 11.2...

AMD may wind up having the API advantage not just with Mantle in Battlefield 4, which is a given, but also with DX 11.1 and 11.2.

Hopefully not!

What games do you play that use 11.1?

11.2 will be used in every ported to PC Xbox One game. It also sounds like it does some of the same things that Mantle claims, which is free up multi-core systems for better performance.

Edit: Also, a demo of 11.2 was done on a GTX770:

http://*********/EswYdzsHKMc?t=2m2s

http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/di...d:+guru3d/news+(Guru3d+Latest+News+&+Articles)
 
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Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
5,195
1
71

Are you ever going to stop spreading misinformation. Obviously that feature AMD chose not to implement that only 1 game takes advantage of doesn't really matter. This driver that is obviously broken is still performing better than nvidia's "working" driver. So show me an instance of AMD's broken driver performing poorly.

I can however tell you that Nvidia's cards perform unbelievable badly in the BF4 beta that you kept throwing around which is still unproven to use command lists.

47485.png
 
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OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
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I can however tell you that Nvidia's cards perform unbelievable badly in the BF4 beta that you kept throwing around which is still unproven to use command lists.

Link to benchmark of NV cards performing "unbelievable badly "?
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
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Teizo

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2010
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
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It explains why they need a new API to offset their lack of abilities in DX multithreaded performance.

Site an example of the games where AMD's 7970GE/R9 280X loses badly against 680/770 in a DX11 game that uses multi-threading.

They cant make a proper DX driver

Oh really? Is that why a $399 770 cannot beat a $299 7970GE/R9 280X in DX9-11 games?

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2013/nvidia-geforce-gtx-770-im-test/4/

http://techreport.com/review/25466/amd-radeon-r9-280x-and-270x-graphics-cards/11

Will be interesting to see your silence when R9 290X beats 780 in DX9-11 games at Computerbase. :D

they cant make a proper OpenGL driver.

Unsubstantiated opinion vs. factual benchmarks.
 

chimaxi83

Diamond Member
May 18, 2003
5,457
63
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Ummm...did you read that review? He is making up a subjective "smoothness" factor because it cant be quantified.

Read some more objective reviews ;)

Those subjective reviews are gospel around here when he cites Nvidia as "better". Don't be a hypocrite.
 

Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
5,195
1
71
Ummm...did you read that review? He is making up a subjective "smoothness" factor because it cant be quantified.

Read some more objective reviews ;)

When their findings mirror my own experience and that of other users, it tends to hold more weight. Hardocp were the only site claiming sli tended to be smoother than crossfire and in the end they were right. No fancy software needed. Just play the game.
 

Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
5,195
1
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It should be stated that no one should take benchmarks on a Beta game with Beta drivers to heart. That is a ridiculous assertion.

Maybe you should read my previous post and see what I was getting at before saying that.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
When their findings mirror my own experience and that of other users, it tends to hold more weight. Hardocp were the only site claiming sli tended to be smoother than crossfire and in the end they were right. No fancy software needed. Just play the game.

So it is common for people to site reviews where the card they are trying to say is better has consistently less FPS?

That is one of the worst "reviews" I have ever read, TBH.
 

Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
5,195
1
71
So it is common for people to site reviews where the card they are trying to say is better has consistently less FPS?

That is one of the worst "reviews" I have ever read, TBH.

Yeah, go ahead and gloss over the fact that I get the same experience he is describing with a gtx690 and a gtx560. I mentioned it before that review even came out in a thread you were taking part in. Another poster here said the exact same thing. But go ahead and be in denial. I'm not surprised TBH
 

SimianR

Senior member
Mar 10, 2011
609
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So it is common for people to site reviews where the card they are trying to say is better has consistently less FPS?

That is one of the worst "reviews" I have ever read, TBH.

I'm playing Battlefield 4 right now on a Geforce 760, and while my fps have been consistently high, I am getting some hitching or choppiness that isn't reflected through the framerate. It is definitely there. But Beta is Beta, hopefully these issues get ironed out.
 
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Xarick

Golden Member
May 17, 2006
1,199
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I get no hitching on my 670, but my fps does not break 40.. but then again people say it my q9550 holding me back.