You'd have to be a truly delusional binary thinker not to notice how the lending/credit crunch has really decimated our economy in numerous ways, but there you have it. The key to our entire economic crisis is that banks are hoarding cash, not making loans, and acting like a bunch of selfish fucks even after being bailed out by hundreds of billions of taxpayer cash, but let's ignore that and pretend the demand for U.S. built cars doesn't exist.
You'd have to be a truly delusional binary thinker not to notice how the lending/credit crunch has really decimated our economy in numerous ways, but there you have it. The key to our entire economic crisis is that banks are hoarding cash, not making loans, and acting like a bunch of selfish fucks even after being bailed out by hundreds of billions of taxpayer cash, but let's ignore that and pretend the demand for U.S. built cars doesn't exist.
Guess what, the company is strapped for cash and apparently is close to collapse. If you think the concessions can wait till 2010, go ahead. But GM may not be around in 2010 without concessions.
And Yes I think management has its own share of problems that need to be dealt with. I believe the ceos have stated they will be working for $1/year if they get money from the government....
Well considering easy credit is what got us into the mess, I cant really blame the banks for doing what they should have been doing before all this started.
Squisher
Lifer
- Aug 17, 2000
- 21,204
- 66
- 91
Huh? I'm an American Axle retiree. All the UAW general labor workers at American Axle now went from making $24/hr to $18/hr, the two tier was already in place from the last agreement. And, there is no more jobs bank. The skilled trades classifications went down to 2, electricians and everybody else. All the non-essential work for outside maintanence is now done by contract employees.
How is taking a 25% paycut not a concession??? How are all those other things not concessions???
I can't say I agree with the strike that took place. We in the IAM had already given up those things in our last contract. We were out of work during that walkout without strike pay.
btw-the jobs bank is a moot point, it is gone, bye bye, and even before all this bailout talk there were only 3500 people in it, in the entire USA.
Again, it depends what you want to define as a "lay off". That article says GM's white collar labor force is around half the size today that it was at the start of the decade. Many of those people got buyouts. But these buyouts weren't nearly as generous as what the union got, the folks that took them didn't have nearly as much say in the matter. Everyone who has remained has had their salary, benefits, etc. drastically cut.
Did I say that the credit crunch isn't happening? No. What you don't seem to understand is that if GM produces 138054793857 cars and only 3 of them get sold, the rest sit there. It doesn't matter WHY they don't get purchased. It's not a difficult concept, so quit whining and quit making up ridiculous strawmen to try to avoid the obviousness of what I'm saying. Quit with the name-calling childish BS and read for a change.
Just some fuzzy math here, and it's really late and I'm probably screwing something up, but 3500 people * 50 an hour * 8 hours = 1.4 million. A day.
That, times 365 = about half a billion dollars, each year. That seems to be way more than the CEO's pay.
That's 3500 people they could have employed, actually doing stuff. How many people work at a plant anyways?
Engineers, architects and modelers can come up with a perfect car design but it won't be worth a penny if the hands that build it are imperfect! But not necessarily the other way around!
Quick guys, let's blame each other instead of the real enemy. It's just what they want us to do, and we know how easy we are to get fucked, so let's not ruin that track record.
boomerang
Lifer
- Jun 19, 2000
- 18,883
- 641
- 126
It's absurd all right. Absurd that you think any of the above is true. But it sure helps fuel the misguided jealousy fires.
The jobs bank is dead. Read that sentence again. You're living in the past and it's time to move into the modern day. When a UAW worker gets laid off they get unemployment paid by the state the same as anyone else laid off from any other job. These benefits have been expanded recently for everyone in the US.
You yourself said they changed the article. Why do you think they did that? Could it be that they discovered they had just published a bunch of shit?
boomerang
Lifer
- Jun 19, 2000
- 18,883
- 641
- 126
Another incorrect statement.
The dirty little secret they don't want you to know is that UAW members are allowed to kill one baby per week. I heard it from my friend Bill. His Aunt's, step father's uncle has a brother who is a UAW member.
So I know it must be true.
That's not the reality of it whatsoever. Now, the banks have swung the other way and have put a death grip on the lending spigot that drives much of our economy. Don't believe me? Listen to what the head of the largest chain of auto dealers in the U.S. has to say:
So for the love of god, knock off this "easy credit got us into this" line of crap and listen to what the real issue is for once.
You are getting quite annoying with your over-simplification of things. Of course it fucking matters why the cars aren't getting sold! If there's huge demand for a product, but the product can't be bought because we're in the midst of the largest economic clusterfuck since the great depression and the reason the product isn't being sold is because the banking industry's balls have retreated into their body cavity as they shiver with fear, then the problem isn't with the company making the product at all, nor is the problem the fault of the UAW or the corporate executives, the problem is completely external.
So for the love of god, knock off this "easy credit got us into this" line of crap and listen to what the real issue is for once.[/quote]
I understand what you are saying, but we also have a financial hangover right now. That hangover is going to take a while to its course, for both banks and consumers. Consumers need to lower their debt load and banks need to increase their cash holdings. IT sucks, but it needs to be done.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
No, no, voodoo is all that supply-side stuff that Reagan liked so much.
You're talking unions here, make sure you pick the right buzz-words.
You've already put in 'inefficient', which is a good start. Now try 'lazy', 'greedy', and maybe throw in something about free labour markets, and you should be good.
From the article that 'her209' posted a link to:
"GM employs 28,000 white-collar workers, down from 47,000 seven years ago."
The first employees to have their benefits cut have always been the white collar workers at these auto companies.
A few examples:
In 2005, pensions cut for salaried people http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-142979716.html
Salaried workers matching 401k program suspended, tuition reimbursement stopped http://www.dailytribune.com/ar...a2161fbbb852538120.txt
Retired salaried people loose their lifetime health coverage: lifetime health coverage for some 100,000 white-collar retirees
No No No No NO...
I don't want to hear that "management has its own share of problem that need to be dealt with". What I want to hear is, before we start taking money away from hard working peons, is that Management has already parity'd up with their Japenese counterparts. If you, and they, are so quick to F the little man, surely they've already done this, Right?????? I mean, this is Management. They're supposed to lead. That's why they've gotten multi-$Million dollar packages for decades now.
Here's what it boils down to: I have little stomach for F'ing the poor slob on the assembly line out of money he will absolutely miss, just to make the vehicles $800 cheaper (which has nothing to do with why the vehicles aren't selling, which is why the Big 3 are in the position they're in the first place), while Management has been raking in multi-$Million dollar packages every F'ing year.
My god...how much is enough?!?!?! The first year one of these people are there, they make enough for a lifetime. But then the next year, they get more?!?!!? And again, and again, and again????
No...F that. UAW has given enough. The end.
Chuck
If people want to buy 4*x cars but can only buy x cars, how many cars should the car companies build?
Yes, but people with GOOD credit with the ability to repay aren't getting loans. Things have completely swung the opposite direction and as much as you like to think that's a good thing, it's NOT. Not for the consumer, not for corporate america, not for the auto makers, not for anyone. Lending and available credit for people and companies who DESERVE credit, form the backbone of our economy, and without it, our entire economy is tanking.
I don't think you get it. I really don't.
Around here there is no shortage of loan money. Car dealers with lenders lined up are begging people to buy but most of us are hoarding until we see some light at the end of the tunnel. New houses are going up and being sold too.
Must vary from region to region.
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