Car margins are very thin so 1-5% savings is huge. But it's the fact that from a macro perspective it will be diverting money from union labor (which is inefficient and generally a huge waste) to more effecient labor and quality, which in turn increases car quality and operating effeciencies and the entire economy of carbuilding changes to their favor and has a much better chance of profitability.
Car margins are very thin so 1-5% savings is huge. But it's the fact that from a macro perspective it will be diverting money from union labor (which is inefficient and generally a huge waste) to more effecient labor and quality, which in turn increases car quality and operating effeciencies and the entire economy of carbuilding changes to their favor and has a much better chance of profitability.
or get better bailout legislation passed. :roll:Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Here's my view - if you don't want to abide by governmental legislation, then don't accept their money. But if you do accept government money, then you damn well do what they ask.
what the hell are you talking about? Unjust legislation is unjust, regardless.
Right.
If they feel the legislation is unjust then what they need to do is oppose this bailout. That is their right to do so.
A question please.
Are you talking about future benefits ? Or the benefits the retired workers are receiving now ?
Because, I would not want to take something that a person that has worked 30-40 years for and is currently receiving.
That is just wrong. IMO.
It is what is currently being paid to workers and retirees.
You say taking away their benefits is wrong.
I say forcing you and I to pay for their benefits through our tax dollars is even worse.
I still don't believe in government run health care - but on a relative scale it sure would be a helluva lot better than the government providing some with benefits, paid for by the rest of us.
sandorski
No Lifer
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Not entirely sure. I assumed the "10%" comment was accurate, then assumed that figure didn't include the "$74"/hour figure usually bandied about, but the more accurate "$55" figure of actual Wages/Benefits of Employees. I also assumed that Wages/Benefits would be brought inline with Japanese American Employees amount of "$47"(ish).
Assuming my Assumptions are accurate, Pension/Benefits would be even less. If thhe original "10%" isn't accurate, then all my figures are bogus(they sorta are since I just did the Math quickly in my head).
I believe that this post is much more deserving of an informed response than that vast majority of other smoke blowing posts in this thread.
Yeah. I am not too crazy about it either.
And if their had been no bailouts I would not question it as much.
If the retirees lose their current benefits. I imagine I will end up paying that one way or another... maybe through the PBGC. Although the PBGC is not supposed to be funded by tax dollars. It is probably underfunded too.
Here's a CBS story with some actual figures.
1) "(T)he average United Auto Workers member makes $29.78 per hour at GM, while Toyota pays its workers (most of whom are non-union) about $30 per hour."
2) "The Japanese automaker has fewer retirees in the U.S., and its health care benefits and pensions are less generous than those negotiated between Detroit and the UAW."
3) "(H)ealth costs and pensions for auto workers in Japan - worth billions - are subsidized by the Japanese government."
4) "((A)ccording to the UAW) labor costs account for about 10 percent of the cost of producing a vehicle; the remaining 90 percent includes research and development, parts, advertising, marketing and management overhead."
5) "In 2007 GM's CEO Rick Wagoner earned about $15.7 million. . . Ford?s CEO Alan Mulally's total compensation in 2007 was $21.7 million."
6) "Toyota paid its entire 37-member leadership team approximately $22 million."
The average salary paid to UAW members is steadily going down after the current concessions that have new employees making significantly less. Of course the Japanese are looking to lower wages from the average automaking job to that of the average manufacturing job in the state.
Comparing apples to apples is difficult because of the assorted government subsidies involved. Many foreign companies have received state and local incentives to open up shop. The Japanese government subsidies the pension for their older workforce that's mainly in Japan while their younger American workforce have yet to hit retirement.
1) "(T)he average United Auto Workers member makes $29.78 per hour at GM, while Toyota pays its workers (most of whom are non-union) about $30 per hour."
2) "The Japanese automaker has fewer retirees in the U.S., and its health care benefits and pensions are less generous than those negotiated between Detroit and the UAW."
3) "(H)ealth costs and pensions for auto workers in Japan - worth billions - are subsidized by the Japanese government."
4) "((A)ccording to the UAW) labor costs account for about 10 percent of the cost of producing a vehicle; the remaining 90 percent includes research and development, parts, advertising, marketing and management overhead."
5) "In 2007 GM's CEO Rick Wagoner earned about $15.7 million. . . Ford?s CEO Alan Mulally's total compensation in 2007 was $21.7 million."
6) "Toyota paid its entire 37-member leadership team approximately $22 million."
The average salary paid to UAW members is steadily going down after the current concessions that have new employees making significantly less. Of course the Japanese are looking to lower wages from the average automaking job to that of the average manufacturing job in the state.
Comparing apples to apples is difficult because of the assorted government subsidies involved. Many foreign companies have received state and local incentives to open up shop. The Japanese government subsidies the pension for their older workforce that's mainly in Japan while their younger American workforce have yet to hit retirement.
One reuters article today talked about UAW severances. About 30 min later they changed the article and took out much of the detail but originally it said:
UAW get 48 weeks paid severance if laid off and then if they don't find a job they get put in a "job bank" where they get paid 95% of salary with benefits until they find a job at their leisure which many times they stay like this for years.
Think about how absurb that is.
UAW get 48 weeks paid severance if laid off and then if they don't find a job they get put in a "job bank" where they get paid 95% of salary with benefits until they find a job at their leisure which many times they stay like this for years.
Think about how absurb that is.
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Also when they go on layoff and onto unemployment gm pays the difference to bring them up to 72% of their regular wage.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
No it doesn't because it's mainly just smoke blowing itself. No one in this thread has pinned "all of the problems on the workers". The thread was about the UAW thugs expecting EVERYONE ELSE to change but they won't. There is a huge difference between those two thoughts/statements and you and DM don't seem to grasp that fact.
And according the harbour reports, UAW as a whole continue to take more hours to assemble cars, engines and transmission. Granted the big have made significant strides in this area, it still leaves UAW under performing and overpaid.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
It's a matter of opinion, I see them as thugs because they distort the labor market and now won't give an inch when the companies they work for are on the brink. Fits my definition of a thug but YMMV.
They won't move an inch? They cut pay and benefits, restrictions have been added to the jobs bank (which will be phased out), removed several job-class restrictions, gotten rid of union pay requirements for non-union workers and plenty of other things.
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