meltdown75
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2004
- 37,548
- 7
- 81
if you had 25 years in somewhere (or whatever amount of time you deem to be an investment), you might not be so quick to ditch your seniority and / or chances of being called back.
Honda of America...5 miles down the road from my Farm has never allowed the Union in and they and the workers are happy...
And I'm sure they treat their employees fairly and well. They can afford to pay more to the individual employees b/c they aren't shoveling money into the union.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
That's because they pay and treat them well so the Workers won't unionize. Without the threat of those Employees organizing if they are treated like sh!t you can bet that Honda wouldn't pay them well or treat them well.
I believe some Unions have to be more realistic. If a worker doesn't do his job well he should be fired. Also if they have to lay off a worker he should get unemployment just like anybody else, not full wages for a year or two. That's the way it is in the Unionized Building Trades or at least the Carpenters Union.
Honda and Japan will never let Unions in no matter what type of idle threats there are just as Lawyers and lawsuits are few and far between in Japan...the exit door exist for all who do not like to work as a team...
anyone else wonder what all of these high dollar blue collar union contract cancellations (and resulting slashing of wages) is going to do to wages in every other industry??
This is going to have a major economic impact for all of us
This is going to have a major economic impact for all of us
shilala
Lifer
- Oct 5, 2004
- 11,437
- 1
- 76
Who the fvck do you think was instrumental is developing OSHA, Wage laws, and various other agencies?
Your Fairy Godmother???
Who the fvck do you think is going to continuously and tirelessly defend these laws that everyone here takes for granted???
How much of your paycheck went to lobby that the Davis-Bacon Act is not repealed???
How much of your paycheck went to see that minimum wage laws are constantly reviewed?
Do you think that big business and government gives a royal flying dick about OSHA??
The ignorance on this topic never ceases to amaze me.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
wow... for someone who apparently believes in free markets, you're showing some severe ignorance of how free markets work.
The unions have negotiated an ungodly amount of money for their members which has crippled the businesses ability to operate efficiently. The unions pay unskilled laborers more than most entry level skilled laborers and cause the businesses to raise prices to compensate. I think the market should determine fair wages and that unions monopolize the employee pool by locking in a factory to only accept unionized workers. In the end, its the rest of the US which pays for all the products with their highly inflated prices.
I stopped believing in unions after the government put an end to safety issues and horrid working conditions. Everything since then has been negotiating higher and higher pay and benefits without regard to see what the market is willing or able to tolerate.
I stopped believing in unions after the government put an end to safety issues and horrid working conditions. Everything since then has been negotiating higher and higher pay and benefits without regard to see what the market is willing or able to tolerate.
My friends who work at the Lockport plant are sh!tting their pants. They know the unemployment line is calling their names.
I kind of feel sorry for them, but at the same time I don't.
We here in WNY get a lot of local stories about this delphi ordeal. It employs about 3,800 people and is one of the largest employers here in the area.
If I actually had the time and effort, I would post the articles. Some of them appear in buffalonews.com and do give a lot of local insight into this UAW/Delphi mess.
Reality is that Delphi is bleeding money, always has been, and no one is willing to do anything about it. Here in WNY the delphi plant in Lockport gets free electricity allotted. Their tax assessment was dropped 20 million dollars. They get a huge discount on natural gas. They also get quite a few other benefits from Niagara county that no other company in the entire WNY area sees. Still, they can't turn a profit. Unions do have a lot to do with that
At the Lockport plant union employees are guaranteed a minimum of $25/hour with full benefits. In WNY $25/hour MINIMUM is a lot of money. The cost of living here is dirt cheap, average cost of housing just went over 100K for the first time ever. You can live on $12 an hour in this area. But they need more and more and more and more.
Sure no one wants to take a pay cut, but it's take a pay cut, or take a employment cut in an area where jobs are nearly non-existant.
The guys at the plant put in a lot of overtime and end up making a killing. My best friends father is a foreman at a GM plant in Tonawanda, NY. He made well over 100K by putting in guaranteed weekly overtime. You make that much in this area you are sitting pretty. If you make that much in this area, and can't save for retirement, you're a fvcking retard.
Either way, this will be generally bad for the economy, but possibly good for GM in the long run. Delphi is guaranteed to lose money every year.
I kind of feel sorry for them, but at the same time I don't.
We here in WNY get a lot of local stories about this delphi ordeal. It employs about 3,800 people and is one of the largest employers here in the area.
If I actually had the time and effort, I would post the articles. Some of them appear in buffalonews.com and do give a lot of local insight into this UAW/Delphi mess.
Reality is that Delphi is bleeding money, always has been, and no one is willing to do anything about it. Here in WNY the delphi plant in Lockport gets free electricity allotted. Their tax assessment was dropped 20 million dollars. They get a huge discount on natural gas. They also get quite a few other benefits from Niagara county that no other company in the entire WNY area sees. Still, they can't turn a profit. Unions do have a lot to do with that
At the Lockport plant union employees are guaranteed a minimum of $25/hour with full benefits. In WNY $25/hour MINIMUM is a lot of money. The cost of living here is dirt cheap, average cost of housing just went over 100K for the first time ever. You can live on $12 an hour in this area. But they need more and more and more and more.
Sure no one wants to take a pay cut, but it's take a pay cut, or take a employment cut in an area where jobs are nearly non-existant.
The guys at the plant put in a lot of overtime and end up making a killing. My best friends father is a foreman at a GM plant in Tonawanda, NY. He made well over 100K by putting in guaranteed weekly overtime. You make that much in this area you are sitting pretty. If you make that much in this area, and can't save for retirement, you're a fvcking retard.
Either way, this will be generally bad for the economy, but possibly good for GM in the long run. Delphi is guaranteed to lose money every year.
Originally posted by: dartworth
LOL...Time to go to work...
Anyways, it's funny how so many people on this board want to see all these UAW workers lose their jobs. Well?it?s not funny, and it?s not going to be good for the economy either?
Of course it's better for the economy, not for the short term, but long term.
As Greenspan says, Flexible Economy > *
Engineer
Elite Member
- Oct 9, 1999
- 39,230
- 701
- 126
Originally posted by: dartworth
LOL...
Anyways, it's funny how so many people on this board want to see all these UAW workers lose their jobs. Well?it?s not funny, and it?s not going to be good for the economy either?
Neither will watching GM/Ford/Chrysler pack bags and head to Mexico as many parts suppliers (both union and non union) are already doing.
shilala
Lifer
- Oct 5, 2004
- 11,437
- 1
- 76
Yes, I do support it 100%.
I support it across the board.
I think it's very fair for a man (or woman) to make $50,000 a year with health benefits so the other parent can stay home and raise children that turn into decent human beings because they can actually interact with the people who spawned them rather than interacting with a video game in which they respawn.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
I agree - the notion that a competitive firm can simply 'pass costs along to consumers' is utterly ridiculous.
If you learn one thing from basic economics it should be this: under competition, firms are price-takers.
Now we can argue all day about the degree of competition in a given industry, but the fact remains that costs cannot simply be 'passed along' in anything the remotely approximates a market. Asking prices can be increased, with any associated reductions in demand, but they simply do not work their way through the system in the manner that Injury describes.
In fact, the standard (but still highly flawed) argument is that unions lead to artificially low employment levels in unionized companies. By this I mean high capital:worker ratios, which allow higher marginal products of labour, which allow companies to pay workers high wages without going broke. What is glossed over here is that maintaining such high ratios should be impossible in a world which supposedly also has a free market for investment funds, as this one does, since high capital:worker ratios are typical of industries with low returns to capital. But I digress.
Allowing this capital ratio inequality means lower capital:worker ratios for the rest of the non-unionized economy, meaning each worker in the rest of teh economy has less 'technology' helping them do their job, and as a result lower productivity, and lower pay than they would have in a world without unions.
Short version - unionization of some industries leads to lower employment and higher pay in those industries, and higher employment with lower pay in 'the rest' of the industries.
I think that's mostly BS myself, but it's the standard textbook answer that neo-classical economists would give.
I tend to think you can gain more from analysing the gap between 'living wage' (in the long run, the smallest wage you can pay a worker without them dying) and 'workers marginal productivity' (in free market theory, what a worker actually gets paid). The funny thing is that in the textbook world, living wages are irrelevant, but in the real world, they are very much more important in people's day-to-day lives than often abstract calculations of productivity.
Think about this: What is the productivity of a manager? what about a janitor in a factory? How do you calculate the productivity of anyone who doesn't singlehandedly create a good or service that is directly sold in the marketplace?
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter