UAW: Prepare to strike Delphi

Yes, I do support it 100%.
I support it across the board.

I think it's very fair for a man (or woman) to make $50,000 a year with health benefits so the other parent can stay home and raise children that turn into decent human beings because they can actually interact with the people who spawned them rather than interacting with a video game in which they respawn.

I don't agree that it's fair for a unskilled, uneducated, entry level person to make the median income level for the entire country, plus benefits. Though outlooks like yours have caused an entire corporation, spun off from one of the largest in the country, to go bankrupt. People have to work their asses off to get to that level, they do not deserve to just walk in, push a broom and make that level of income. Might as well pay burger flippers 50K a year plus benefits so one parent can stay home and raise the children. Hell, everyone should make 50K a year! Just walk into a job and get paid! No education, experience or skill required.

I know you're a blue collar American worker. I would venture to guess that you're also not formally educated and also entered your trade as an unskilled apprentice. Very commendable what you have built for yourself. Though your adamant ideals on what workers in America deserve do not change the realities of economics. The high demands of workers, coupled with the demands of lower prices by consumers have caused companies to go bankrupt.
So just understand that you have brought about your own demise.

Now to address the tangent you went on about how children are raised in a dual income family. Consider for a second that the American life you wallow in has created this "situation". If you didnt WANT so much, you wouldn't need dual income families. The typical American's inability to manage their finances has created this situation. Living beyond their means created the need for another income in the household. So the next generation suffers because you didn't learn an important lesson in, how to handle your money and live within your means, from your parents. If it's such a concern then cut your spending back, eliminate bad debt and teach your children respect money.

I was raised in a dual income family, though one parent worked night shift so the schedule was bit different. I grew up with plenty of family interaction as well as self-cultivation. Sure I spent time with TV and video games, but I also had plenty of friends and constantly interacted with my family. I turned out just fine. I worked my ass off to get what I have, paid my way through everything I had to and now work my ass of to generate income to support a family I will eventually raise. I have no tolerance for feelings of entitlement when it comes to working and income.
The problem is that parents that have no respect for money and no grip on financial responsibility will undoubtedly raise children as foolish as themselves doomed to continue to cycle.

No janitor is worth $25/hour, no "inventory manager" is worth $25/hour to start. These people should work their way up from minimum wage to, and possibly through, the median income.

 

[Injury]

Originally posted by: SampSon
I don't agree that it's fair for a unskilled, uneducated, entry level person to make the median income level for the entire country, plus benefits. Though outlooks like yours have caused an entire corporation, spun off from one of the largest in the country, to go bankrupt. People have to work their asses off to get to that level, they do not deserve to just walk in, push a broom and make that level of income. Might as well pay burger flippers 50K a year plus benefits so one parent can stay home and raise the children. Hell, everyone should make 50K a year! Just walk into a job and get paid! No education, experience or skill required.

I know you're a blue collar American worker. I would venture to guess that you're also not formally educated and also entered your trade as an unskilled apprentice. Very commendable what you have built for yourself. Though your adamant ideals on what workers in America deserve do not change the realities of economics. The high demands of workers, coupled with the demands of lower prices by consumers have caused companies to go bankrupt.
So just understand that you have brought about your own demise.

*snip*

No janitor is worth $25/hour, no "inventory manager" is worth $25/hour to start. These people should work their way up from minimum wage to, and possibly through, the median income.

That was basically what I was trying to say... but I had just gotten off work before I posted and I was hella tired.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Injury

Originally posted by: SampSon
I don't agree that it's fair for a unskilled, uneducated, entry level person to make the median income level for the entire country, plus benefits. Though outlooks like yours have caused an entire corporation, spun off from one of the largest in the country, to go bankrupt. People have to work their asses off to get to that level, they do not deserve to just walk in, push a broom and make that level of income. Might as well pay burger flippers 50K a year plus benefits so one parent can stay home and raise the children. Hell, everyone should make 50K a year! Just walk into a job and get paid! No education, experience or skill required.

I know you're a blue collar American worker. I would venture to guess that you're also not formally educated and also entered your trade as an unskilled apprentice. Very commendable what you have built for yourself. Though your adamant ideals on what workers in America deserve do not change the realities of economics. The high demands of workers, coupled with the demands of lower prices by consumers have caused companies to go bankrupt.
So just understand that you have brought about your own demise.

*snip*

No janitor is worth $25/hour, no "inventory manager" is worth $25/hour to start. These people should work their way up from minimum wage to, and possibly through, the median income.

That was basically what I was trying to say... but I had just gotten off work before I posted and I was hella tired.

What does minimum wage have to do with productivity?

What is the justification for 'working your way up'? Market economics has no such concept!

If workers were actually being paid more than their marginal product, the auto companies would never have signed their labour agreements in the first place!

The answer is not that the workers were overpaid, but rather that unrestrained globaization has created cheaper options for production, elsewhere, in markets where there wil be no need to pay anything close to the marginal product of labour.

Free trade is generally a good thing, but free trade coupled with capital mobility and transnational corporations creates a mass exodus of capital from developed nations to developing, cheap-labour nations. This is exactly what is happening: it is good for capitalists, but not for workers in developed nations, and not even or workers in developing ones in many cases, where forced industrialization has destroyed traditional agricultural industries and left millions unemployed or chronically underemployed.

In the free trade model with no capital mobility between nations, it is easy to see that trade makes all nations, rich and poor, better off. In the globalization model we see at work today, only the rich are better off, and there is widespread instability.

Your income is determined by three things: capital (i.e. technology that supports your job function), education, and the availabiity of other workers who can do your job. Create a massive over-supply of a particular type of labour, and your wages not only fall, the cease to have any relationship to the concept of being paid 'what you're worth'.

 

[PingSpike]

In the end, it would be business as usually and fine so long as the government wasn't going to go bail them out and dump all the false pension promises onto the tax payers shoulders. The management and the union both have a hand in this, but *I* shouldn't have to pay for some random guys pension because his company went bankrupt.

Unions have their place. But its really piss poor management from way back that just plain gave up to much power. And they'll continue to do it too, since the government will just swoop in to pick up the tab.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Yes, I do support it 100%.
I support it across the board.

I think it's very fair for a man (or woman) to make $50,000 a year with health benefits so the other parent can stay home and raise children that turn into decent human beings because they can actually interact with the people who spawned them rather than interacting with a video game in which they respawn.

I don't agree that it's fair for a unskilled, uneducated, entry level person to make the median income level for the entire country, plus benefits. Though outlooks like yours have caused an entire corporation, spun off from one of the largest in the country, to go bankrupt. People have to work their asses off to get to that level, they do not deserve to just walk in, push a broom and make that level of income. Might as well pay burger flippers 50K a year plus benefits so one parent can stay home and raise the children. Hell, everyone should make 50K a year! Just walk into a job and get paid! No education, experience or skill required.

I know you're a blue collar American worker. I would venture to guess that you're also not formally educated and also entered your trade as an unskilled apprentice. Very commendable what you have built for yourself. Though your adamant ideals on what workers in America deserve do not change the realities of economics. The high demands of workers, coupled with the demands of lower prices by consumers have caused companies to go bankrupt.
So just understand that you have brought about your own demise.

Now to address the tangent you went on about how children are raised in a dual income family. Consider for a second that the American life you wallow in has created this "situation". If you didnt WANT so much, you wouldn't need dual income families. The typical American's inability to manage their finances has created this situation. Living beyond their means created the need for another income in the household. So the next generation suffers because you didn't learn an important lesson in, how to handle your money and live within your means, from your parents. If it's such a concern then cut your spending back, eliminate bad debt and teach your children respect money.

I was raised in a dual income family, though one parent worked night shift so the schedule was bit different. I grew up with plenty of family interaction as well as self-cultivation. Sure I spent time with TV and video games, but I also had plenty of friends and constantly interacted with my family. I turned out just fine. I worked my ass off to get what I have, paid my way through everything I had to and now work my ass of to generate income to support a family I will eventually raise. I have no tolerance for feelings of entitlement when it comes to working and income.
The problem is that parents that have no respect for money and no grip on financial responsibility will undoubtedly raise children as foolish as themselves doomed to continue to cycle.

No janitor is worth $25/hour, no "inventory manager" is worth $25/hour to start. These people should work their way up from minimum wage to, and possibly through, the median income.

LOL, nobody that posts here from work instead of doing their work is worth a sh!t let alone what ever it is they get paid. The could have gone to school gotten a great education and what not but if they are posting here instead of being productive then they are worthless and certainly no better than a Janitor who at least is doing his job.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: PingSpike
In the end, it would be business as usually and fine so long as the government wasn't going to go bail them out and dump all the false pension promises onto the tax payers shoulders. The management and the union both have a hand in this, but *I* shouldn't have to pay for some random guys pension because his company went bankrupt.

Unions have their place. But its really piss poor management from way back that just plain gave up to much power. And they'll continue to do it too, since the government will just swoop in to pick up the tab.

No one should have to pay - the company should be able to go bankrupt, and a well-managed pension fund would look after all of its obligations. But there aren't any well-managed pension funds; they are constantly raided by corporations, leaving huge unfunded liabilities.

 

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SampSon

Yes, I do support it 100%.
I support it across the board.

I think it's very fair for a man (or woman) to make $50,000 a year with health benefits so the other parent can stay home and raise children that turn into decent human beings because they can actually interact with the people who spawned them rather than interacting with a video game in which they respawn.

I don't agree that it's fair for a unskilled, uneducated, entry level person to make the median income level for the entire country, plus benefits. Though outlooks like yours have caused an entire corporation, spun off from one of the largest in the country, to go bankrupt. People have to work their asses off to get to that level, they do not deserve to just walk in, push a broom and make that level of income. Might as well pay burger flippers 50K a year plus benefits so one parent can stay home and raise the children. Hell, everyone should make 50K a year! Just walk into a job and get paid! No education, experience or skill required.

I know you're a blue collar American worker. I would venture to guess that you're also not formally educated and also entered your trade as an unskilled apprentice. Very commendable what you have built for yourself. Though your adamant ideals on what workers in America deserve do not change the realities of economics. The high demands of workers, coupled with the demands of lower prices by consumers have caused companies to go bankrupt.
So just understand that you have brought about your own demise.

Now to address the tangent you went on about how children are raised in a dual income family. Consider for a second that the American life you wallow in has created this "situation". If you didnt WANT so much, you wouldn't need dual income families. The typical American's inability to manage their finances has created this situation. Living beyond their means created the need for another income in the household. So the next generation suffers because you didn't learn an important lesson in, how to handle your money and live within your means, from your parents. If it's such a concern then cut your spending back, eliminate bad debt and teach your children respect money.

I was raised in a dual income family, though one parent worked night shift so the schedule was bit different. I grew up with plenty of family interaction as well as self-cultivation. Sure I spent time with TV and video games, but I also had plenty of friends and constantly interacted with my family. I turned out just fine. I worked my ass off to get what I have, paid my way through everything I had to and now work my ass of to generate income to support a family I will eventually raise. I have no tolerance for feelings of entitlement when it comes to working and income.
The problem is that parents that have no respect for money and no grip on financial responsibility will undoubtedly raise children as foolish as themselves doomed to continue to cycle.

No janitor is worth $25/hour, no "inventory manager" is worth $25/hour to start. These people should work their way up from minimum wage to, and possibly through, the median income.

LOL, nobody that posts here from work instead of doing their work is worth a sh!t let alone what ever it is they get paid. The could have gone to school gotten a great education and what not but if they are posting here instead of being productive then they are worthless and certainly no better than a Janitor who at least is doing his job.

Is this post directed at me? Do you look at the IPs I post from?
You have no idea what I do, or how I'm paid. I'll give you a hint; I work on a fee basis, hours mean nothing to me.

What does minimum wage have to do with productivity?

What is the justification for 'working your way up'? Market economics has no such concept!

If workers were actually being paid more than their marginal product, the auto companies would never have signed their labour agreements in the first place!

The answer is not that the workers were overpaid, but rather that unrestrained globaization has created cheaper options for production, elsewhere, in markets where there wil be no need to pay anything close to the marginal product of labour.

Free trade is generally a good thing, but free trade coupled with capital mobility and transnational corporations creates a mass exodus of capital from developed nations to developing, cheap-labour nations. This is exactly what is happening: it is good for capitalists, but not for workers in developed nations, and not even or workers in developing ones in many cases, where forced industrialization has destroyed traditional agricultural industries and left millions unemployed or chronically underemployed.

In the free trade model with no capital mobility between nations, it is easy to see that trade makes all nations, rich and poor, better off. In the globalization model we see at work today, only the rich are better off, and there is widespread instability.

Your income is determined by three things: capital (i.e. technology that supports your job function), education, and the availabiity of other workers who can do your job. Create a massive over-supply of a particular type of labour, and your wages not only fall, the cease to have any relationship to the concept of being paid 'what you're worth'.

I understand exactly what you're saying, I was minoring in economics through most of my university education.
The justification for "working your way up" is that the standard wage compensation for a janitor or an unskilled laborer in this area is $8-$15 per hour, not $25/hour to start plus full benefits. The union contracts negotiated by UAW and delphi were never sustainable by the business from day one. Delphi had no choice but to sign the union contracts. The end result is that they are bankrupt and pushing for the nullification of all union contracts if the wage and benefit cuts they desire are not agreed upon.