Well, I come by my union hatred honestly. My father and grandfather worked in unionized steel mills until they went belly-up. My father now works at a non-union plant and the workers have voted to keep the union out at least 6 times. The union comes back each time with new tactics (it really galls them that the plant is non-union) and it's only the lazy workers that ever really make up the union membership drive there.
Well, I come by my union hatred honestly. My father and grandfather worked in unionized steel mills until they went belly-up. My father now works at a non-union plant and the workers have voted to keep the union out at least 6 times. The union comes back each time with new tactics (it really galls them that the plant is non-union) and it's only the lazy workers that ever really make up the union membership drive there.
Triumph
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
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I don't really like the UAW, or hell unions in general, but a 60% paycutt seems pretty drastic. I mean, assuming this isn't the same as the other recent article about GM employees going bankrupt because their overtime was cut, asking anyone to take a 60% paycut (in base pay) is pretty drastic. Even if they made $60k a year turning wrenches, asking them to drop down to a $24,000 salary is pretty ridiculous. No one on this forum could adjust to that kind of paycut instantly, nor would you even agree to it. You would quit. And if at the same time upper management is giving themselves 250% bonuses while declaring bankruptcy, I think I'd be pretty upset as well.
Surely there is some happy middle ground. The unions need to take a pay cut, and management should never get huge bonuses when they haven't done their jobs either!
Surely there is some happy middle ground. The unions need to take a pay cut, and management should never get huge bonuses when they haven't done their jobs either!
I was only born there in the 50's and worked there for 3 yrs in the 80's before I had enoughOriginally posted by: Perknose
You obviously don't know any of the rollicking, contentious, sometimes violent history of the Japaneese labor movement in the 1950's, do you? :shocked:Originally posted by: LED
Just the facts...payem weekly for 25cents more that can be had anyways cause it's called COLA...In Japan which went free enterprise but no Union (because itr was in the 40-50's and non were needed...it's been smooth sailing
meltdown75
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2004
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it's interesting to hear that perspective. the lazy worker being protected by the union is definitely something i have witnessed!
- Oct 9, 1999
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So . . . you do know post-war Japanese labor history of the 1950's, or no?Originally posted by: LED
I was only born there in the 50's and worked there for 3 yrs in the 80's before I had enoughOriginally posted by: Perknose
You obviously don't know any of the rollicking, contentious, sometimes violent history of the Japaneese labor movement in the 1950's, do you? :shocked:Originally posted by: LED
Just the facts...payem weekly for 25cents more that can be had anyways cause it's called COLA...In Japan which went free enterprise but no Union (because itr was in the 40-50's and non were needed...it's been smooth sailing
i'd say if i worked there in the 80's I have some experience of it and it's sexus/age dicriminatory ways
I don't know your situation, but I do know that when the average unionized worker is making something equivlent to a college graduate in the workforce for 5 years, with better benefits and the job of a simp, there is something wrong.
Factory jobs shouldn't have to take the bullcrap from unionized employess like they do. Most parts of automotive manufacturing is UNSKILLED LABOR. The ONLY reason that a factory job is more important than the burger flippers and janitors in the country is that they are more dangerous.... but there's no way in hell that some of the guys that work there should be making the $25-30/hr they do. That's just stupid. Even if you've been there 40 years, it shouldn't matter.
$5 more in your pocket is great for you, but now some factory has to pay it's employees $5 more every hour... guess who pays for that in the end? THE REST OF THE FREAKING COUNTRY. They just pass the cost straight on to the customer.
Unions were created to prevent dangerous and risky working situations, as well as prevent employers from screwing over workers who NEED the job.
There were NOT created to strong arm their way into getting more money left and right, and to piss whine and moan everytime the slightest hint of inflation comes along.
Funny enough, when union workers negotiate for big bucks and the money is passed on to the customer... in turn the customer needs to start making more money... thus the company they work for has to charge more to get them more money... yadda yadda yadda. Yeah, it can be said for any job, not just unionized ones, but the unions are negotiating for CRAZY HIGH amounts. Remember two years ago, the grocery store strike, where they were complaining that giving a paycut to cashiers making upwards of $17/hr? Yeah, unions suck ass.
The 60% paycut is a bluff to ruin the Union. Once it's gone, they can go fine quality workers and pay them the reasonable amounts that the union would consider way too low because they are greedy.
Yea i think most did not see the part where they wanted a 60% pay cut but then padded their serevance package for the upper boss's.
Sorry but the workers have been doing their job, its upper Mgt. that needs a 60% pay cut. They are the ones that run the company, so why blame the people that JUST make parts?
DougK62
Diamond Member
- Mar 28, 2001
- 8,035
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Most positions on an automobile assembly line can be taught to a new worker in a couple of weeks easily. At that time they'll be proficient in their spot. That's the very definition of unskilled labor - low training time. Sorry if you don't like it, but you can't change the facts.
meltdown75
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2004
- 37,548
- 7
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are you a union member? didn't think so.
edit: btw thanks for the response - i respect your viewpoint.
There's a tractor manufacturer here in Winnipeg that used to have the Canadian version of UAW in it (It's an old Ford factory). When the new guy bought it he wouldn't let any workers in until the union was out. I think he ended up paying a couple million to get the union out, but now it's highly efficient and definately has brought the wages down.
The UAW is important, but they have no grasp of reality anymore.
The UAW is important, but they have no grasp of reality anymore.
The Delphi failure != sound business model that failed because of unions per say. Labor cost is a cost like any other. It did not crawl out of the closet overnight. It has been negotiated over time, and apparently irresponsibly with respect to the stockholders. If the business model cannot accommodate this cost, or any other for that matter, it should cease to exist.
UAW != all unions are the devil, or the UAW for that matter. They negotiated in the best interest of there membership. However short sighted the expectations may have been, more pay and devastating retirement plans is what the membership apparently wanted. They got it in a market that apparently cannot accommodate the cost, and that is that, they got what they wanted. Membership needs to realize: Delphi = paycheck, no Delphi = no paycheck, UAW != paycheck.
The Labor-Management pendulum will continue to swing back and forth in a cyclical fashion. While short term devastating effects will be felt by individuals and the economy in general, which is saddening on a personal level, this has to be how it works. There was no room for the Dodo bird in evolution and there is no room for this situation as well.
UAW != all unions are the devil, or the UAW for that matter. They negotiated in the best interest of there membership. However short sighted the expectations may have been, more pay and devastating retirement plans is what the membership apparently wanted. They got it in a market that apparently cannot accommodate the cost, and that is that, they got what they wanted. Membership needs to realize: Delphi = paycheck, no Delphi = no paycheck, UAW != paycheck.
The Labor-Management pendulum will continue to swing back and forth in a cyclical fashion. While short term devastating effects will be felt by individuals and the economy in general, which is saddening on a personal level, this has to be how it works. There was no room for the Dodo bird in evolution and there is no room for this situation as well.
FeuerFrei
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2005
- 9,144
- 929
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And these stupid union workers complain that the company won't fix the roof and it gets wet inside the plant. (yes, one union guy posted that on another forum)
Why do you think your working conditions are suboptimal?
Because the company overpays your ass twice the market wage for your job.
Maybe the company could afford to upkeep their facilities if union workers were paid at a realistic level.
(Starting pay for a janitor at major auto makers in Detriot is $25/hr.) :disgust:
Why do you think your working conditions are suboptimal?
Because the company overpays your ass twice the market wage for your job.
Maybe the company could afford to upkeep their facilities if union workers were paid at a realistic level.
(Starting pay for a janitor at major auto makers in Detriot is $25/hr.) :disgust:
meltdown75
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2004
- 37,548
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i think they are most guilty for improving the quality of life for the workers.
damn them!
corporations should be allowed to treat workers like crap.
fsck yeah!
damn them!
corporations should be allowed to treat workers like crap.
fsck yeah!
I don't think anyone disputes the fact that unions were a useful tool before OSHA and various other agencies and wage laws. They have definately outlived their usefulness now and are an albatross hanging around the neck of business.
That's an equally naive point of view. A corporation's primary goal is to maximize profits, thus if it's more profitable to mistreate employees they will. Unions minimize the amount of maltreatment that the labour needs to suffer through, and ensures fair wages for the employees.
That's if the union is being realistic. The UAW and most current unions are out to lunch.
Also run a company in the ground and DEMAND the workers take a pay cut while the big wigs get a bonus. Then turn around and blame the workers that have nothing to do with how the company is run.
Kelemvor
Lifer
- May 23, 2002
- 16,928
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But that's just it. They don't enture "Fair Wages". They insure the wages that they want. Wages are just like Supply and Demand. But Unions demand very high wages for their employees just because they can. There are plenty of people who would do the same job for far less than the Unions demand but they can't because those plants can only hire union people. They basically have a monopoly have the workforce and monopolies are illegal.
There are stories all the time where a company is working along fine. Employees might not be happy but obviously they aren't too unhappy or they'd find a new job. THen the employees make a union and demand higher wages. Then the company goes out of business because now they would have to jack prices way up in order to stay in business.
The only people Unions help are the employees in the union. They screw over the companies which in turns screws over the rest of the public because now we have to pay a lot more for prducts than we should.
Unions were only needed back before there were labor laws about employee mistreatments. But once OSHA came around, Minium wage went in, Health insurance is standard, etc.. the union sjust never went away and continue to get worse and worse.
I know people that are in a union because they are forced to or they couldn't work where they do. And most of them hate the union. It makes them go through lots of extra hoops, runs their lives, forces them when to work or not work even if the employee has no problem with something...
Unions just plain suck. They outlived their usefulness decades ago and they shoudl have all power taken away from them for the good of the rest of the country.
Triumph
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 15,031
- 14
- 81
You lead me to a point I'd like to make. Labor cost is a cost just like any other, and it needs to be managed by the management. Obviously it has gotten out of control if the management feels that a 60% paycut is required, and I see this as a failure by the management. The Union may be strong, but excuses don't earn you profits in the business world: success does (or should). So that being said, why does the management deserve ANY sort of bonus? Bankruptcy should be a black mark on your record, an event to be avoided at all costs. Getting a bonus while the company goes kaput? Isn't that like giving an award to the security guard who fell asleep on the job and allowed the safe to be pillaged?
Scarpozzi
Lifer
- Jun 13, 2000
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Unions only suck if you have to join them. I like the idea of someone looking over management's shoulder other than the stockholders.
I hate to see these companies crumble. They need to stick with it so we don't lose our manufacturing overseas. I think it sucks that we're continuing to lose the fight for manufacturing when it's obvious that shipping is going to only get more expensive.
I hate to see these companies crumble. They need to stick with it so we don't lose our manufacturing overseas. I think it sucks that we're continuing to lose the fight for manufacturing when it's obvious that shipping is going to only get more expensive.
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