U.S. Expected to Own 70% of Restructured G.M.

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Crappy products that no one wants? You realize that Toyota lost MORE money than GM did this past quarter, right? Are they making crappy products that no one wants? It's idiots like you who keep spreading misinformation that makes a bad situation worse. It's obvious that you don't know jack about the situation yet you speak as if you are an expert. There is PLENTY of actual information available on the internet. Look it up and get back to us.

Toyota made more cars than the market wanted, so they took it on the chin. Are we going to float them as well? No, we don't need to because they have been making money for a long time now, so they can absorb the loss. That's how business works. Unfortunately, only idiots like me can see that, while wise men like you want to bury the poor GM people alive with my money.

Right, but you're blaming it on GM's products, which unless you've actually been paying attention is simply not the case anymore. The cars GM is producing and has down the pipeline are very good and can finally hold their own against the imports. GM was brought down by having idiots in management and bloodsucking unions.

 

[cubeless]

i just went out and bought a tax rebate... a nice little loaded cobalt for $15k out the door... hell of a deal...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: techs
Yes, just giving them money would be a much better idea than actually getting something back for the taxpayers.
/sarcasm

How about NOT giving them money? They make a crappy product that no one wants. Therefore, they should go under just like any other business that makes crappy products that no one wants. Throwing money at the problem is not a solution - it's a life raft with a gaping hole in the side. Except instead of leaking air, it's leaking my money.

Typical right-wing approach, run the car into the ditch following ideology. When problems require real and creative solutions, only Democrats come up with them, it seems.

Republicans just bitch about how they violate their ideology, and create slippery slopes predicting doom if the Democrats get their way.

So, we should just not give GM the assistance that will have payoffs for our society, and instead let them go out of business during the crisis, and let the economy suffer.

More poverty the right-wing can easily explain away as long as their ideology is followed. When we had children dying in unsafe factories living in poverty, they could defend that.

Because they don't understand the tradeoffs between the options, they think the GM bailout is some precedent for broad socialism, when it's not.

And they don't understand the bastards on the right who put the nation second to a chance to strike a blow against the unions at GM in favor of the foreign car makers.

Aren't you one of those who wails and gnashes their teeth about "corporate welfare"?

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
America..f-ya!!! Well America has been on a steady decline anyway so this was all but inevitable. Once other nations like China achieve military parity with the US, the glory days of waving the US flag around and bullying smaller nations will come to an end. A cool sight I saw today was someone with a big US flag waving from their Toyota Camry..simply beautiful. I'm sure the Japanese must be laughing their asses off.

Isn't Kentucky still one of the 50 States? Did Toyota close their Georgetown, KY, plant?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Craig234
*usual Craig tripe snipped*

Aren't you one of those who wails and gnashes their teeth about "corporate welfare"?

Craig is for anything the Democrats shovel in his mouth.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
I know people that like their vehicles and continue to purchase them. These people typically owned a GM vehicle before that, and it gave them little to no mechanical trouble. So it must not be a crappy product, and people do seem to want it.

If I start a hot dog stand and I have five very loyal customers, I'll still go out of business and rightly so. Should the government keep my stand afloat to make sure I and my customers can keep on keeping on? Really?

All I was refuting was your inaccurate "They make a crappy product that no one wants" statement.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Craig234
*usual Craig tripe snipped*

Aren't you one of those who wails and gnashes their teeth about "corporate welfare"?

Craig is for anything the Democrats shovel in his mouth.

correction, he is a socialist whom wishes the democrats would put every idea put forward into an acceleration machine as they don't go far enough for the cause.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Typical right-wing approach, run the car into the ditch following ideology. When problems require real and creative solutions, only Democrats come up with them, it seems.

Throwing money at a problem is hardly a real or creative solution. What is wrong with letting a company go out of business? Why should I fund a failed venture?

Republicans just bitch about how they violate their ideology, and create slippery slopes predicting doom if the Democrats get their way.

So, we should just not give GM the assistance that will have payoffs for our society, and instead let them go out of business during the crisis, and let the economy suffer.

What payoffs will our society see? How is letting the economy suffer now rather than later an absolutely poor decision? I've heard the talking points from both sides and there is little substance to any of them. You act as if I'm an extreme right-wing idealogue Republican, which you and I both know is a laughable assertion, but I suppose it's easier for you than coming up with a non-strawman.

 

[techs]

I seem to recall we loaned Chrysler some money like 30 years ago. And they paid it all back, early and with interest. And a large number of jobs were saved. We immeasurably helped our balance of payments. And tens of thousands of Americans kept good paying high benefit jobs instead of working at Wal-Mart.
Track record on helping the auto industry is perfect.

Could the Republican opposition have something to do with the foreign automakers who make cars here make them in the south in Republican stronghold states?
Well, yeah.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Crappy products that no one wants? You realize that Toyota lost MORE money than GM did this past quarter, right? Are they making crappy products that no one wants? It's idiots like you who keep spreading misinformation that makes a bad situation worse. It's obvious that you don't know jack about the situation yet you speak as if you are an expert. There is PLENTY of actual information available on the internet. Look it up and get back to us.

Toyota made more cars than the market wanted, so they took it on the chin. Are we going to float them as well? No, we don't need to because they have been making money for a long time now, so they can absorb the loss. That's how business works. Unfortunately, only idiots like me can see that, while wise men like you want to bury the poor GM people alive with my money.

Right, but you're blaming it on GM's products, which unless you've actually been paying attention is simply not the case anymore. The cars GM is producing and has down the pipeline are very good and can finally hold their own against the imports. GM was brought down by having idiots in management and bloodsucking unions.

+1

There are quite a few GM products that I would rather own then 95% of the Japanese imports.

 

[glenn1]

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Crappy products that no one wants? You realize that Toyota lost MORE money than GM did this past quarter, right? Are they making crappy products that no one wants? It's idiots like you who keep spreading misinformation that makes a bad situation worse. It's obvious that you don't know jack about the situation yet you speak as if you are an expert. There is PLENTY of actual information available on the internet. Look it up and get back to us.

Toyota made more cars than the market wanted, so they took it on the chin. Are we going to float them as well? No, we don't need to because they have been making money for a long time now, so they can absorb the loss. That's how business works. Unfortunately, only idiots like me can see that, while wise men like you want to bury the poor GM people alive with my money.

Right, but you're blaming it on GM's products, which unless you've actually been paying attention is simply not the case anymore. The cars GM is producing and has down the pipeline are very good and can finally hold their own against the imports. GM was brought down by having idiots in management and bloodsucking unions.

+1

There are quite a few GM products that I would rather own then 95% of the Japanese imports.

Hooray for freedom of choice. I feel the exact opposite of you, and recently bought a Honda Fit because there's no "American" cars in its class that even come close to matching up. My preferrence for a smaller car runs up against the reality that Detroit makes truly craptastic small cars, and I wouldn't buy what they have to offer at any price (Chevy Aveo a.k.a. rebadged Daewoo POS? yeah right). Detroit carmakers' area of expertise seems to be larger cars, where they have a relative competitive advantage and make decent money on their cars. That being said, the Democratic Party is going completely the wrong way with this. Instead of repealing the "two fleet" rule for CAFE and allowing Detroit to specialize in the larger cars they do well (and make money at), they're doubling down on making Detroit produce small cars that will get mowed down by Japanese products.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: techs
I seem to recall we loaned Chrysler some money like 30 years ago. And they paid it all back, early and with interest. And a large number of jobs were saved. We immeasurably helped our balance of payments. And tens of thousands of Americans kept good paying high benefit jobs instead of working at Wal-Mart.
Track record on helping the auto industry is perfect.

Could the Republican opposition have something to do with the foreign automakers who make cars here make them in the south in Republican stronghold states?
Well, yeah.

Hey idiot Chrysler defaulted on billions of dollars in loans in the last month. GM is about to do the same.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: techs
I seem to recall we loaned Chrysler some money like 30 years ago. And they paid it all back, early and with interest. And a large number of jobs were saved. We immeasurably helped our balance of payments. And tens of thousands of Americans kept good paying high benefit jobs instead of working at Wal-Mart.
Track record on helping the auto industry is perfect.

Could the Republican opposition have something to do with the foreign automakers who make cars here make them in the south in Republican stronghold states?
Well, yeah.

Hey idiot Chrysler defaulted on billions of dollars in loans in the last month. GM is about to do the same.

Hey, Dimwit read the thread title:
U.S. Expected to Own 70% of Restructured G.M

 

[Double Trouble]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: techs
Yes, just giving them money would be a much better idea than actually getting something back for the taxpayers.
/sarcasm

How about NOT giving them money? They make a crappy product that no one wants. Therefore, they should go under just like any other business that makes crappy products that no one wants. Throwing money at the problem is not a solution - it's a life raft with a gaping hole in the side. Except instead of leaking air, it's leaking my money.

Typical right-wing approach, run the car into the ditch following ideology. When problems require real and creative solutions, only Democrats come up with them, it seems.

Wait wait.... throwing more money at a problem without fixing the root cause is now considered a "real and creative solution only democrats come up with"? :laugh: First, the republican administration did the exact same thing with GM before it went out of office. Now the democrats are doing the same thing, following the same failed path (but for different reasons, they want to pay back the unions).

And they don't understand the bastards on the right who put the nation second to a chance to strike a blow against the unions at GM in favor of the foreign car makers.

Perhaps those "bastards on the right" realize that the long term gain from destroying the cancer that is unionization is more beneficial to the country as a whole than floating GM for a few more months by pumping billions of our tax dollars into it.

I'm about to buy a new vehicle (an SUV), and I would have considered a GM vehicle, but not when it's largely government owned. I'll probably end up with an MDX or QX 56.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: techs
I seem to recall we loaned Chrysler some money like 30 years ago. And they paid it all back, early and with interest. And a large number of jobs were saved. We immeasurably helped our balance of payments. And tens of thousands of Americans kept good paying high benefit jobs instead of working at Wal-Mart.
Track record on helping the auto industry is perfect.

Could the Republican opposition have something to do with the foreign automakers who make cars here make them in the south in Republican stronghold states?
Well, yeah.

Hey idiot Chrysler defaulted on billions of dollars in loans in the last month. GM is about to do the same.

Hey, Dimwit read the thread title:
U.S. Expected to Own 70% of Restructured G.M

He may have been referring to "Track record on helping the auto industry is perfect."

I don't know much about Chrysler's earlier loan. I know that last year when money was thrown at GM and Chrysler that we were seeing companies that were falling apart during a booming economy and it was being exagerated in a bad one. I imagined that the money would not be returned and that the problem was merely being pushed off. Really this wasn't hard to imagine, and has come to fruition.

Unfortunately, in line with others' predictions, the government has now, perhaps irrevocably, entangled itself into one of the country's biggest companies. My guess is that unless the gov can get out of this company fast GM will either continue to shrink domestically, and quickly, or it will be kept afloat by an unlimited amount of tax payer dollars, they being the only way that GM products can be very competitive against other brands.

GM has been a moribund mess for years. This is not a bandaid they need.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
I know people that like their vehicles and continue to purchase them. These people typically owned a GM vehicle before that, and it gave them little to no mechanical trouble. So it must not be a crappy product, and people do seem to want it.

If I start a hot dog stand and I have five very loyal customers, I'll still go out of business and rightly so. Should the government keep my stand afloat to make sure I and my customers can keep on keeping on? Really?

One out of every four vehicles sold in the USA is manufactured by GM. That doesn't sound like no one is wanting to purchase their vehicles.

 

[Double Trouble]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
I know people that like their vehicles and continue to purchase them. These people typically owned a GM vehicle before that, and it gave them little to no mechanical trouble. So it must not be a crappy product, and people do seem to want it.

If I start a hot dog stand and I have five very loyal customers, I'll still go out of business and rightly so. Should the government keep my stand afloat to make sure I and my customers can keep on keeping on? Really?

One out of every four vehicles sold in the USA is manufactured by GM. That doesn't sound like no one is wanting to purchase their vehicles.

That's true, it's not that nobody wants to buy their vehicles, it's that not enough people want to buy their vehicles to make the company profitable. Essentially, the government has now committed permanent unlimited financing to this failure of a company, at the expense of the taxpayer.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: techs
Yes, just giving them money would be a much better idea than actually getting something back for the taxpayers.
/sarcasm

How about NOT giving them money? They make a crappy product that no one wants. Therefore, they should go under just like any other business that makes crappy products that no one wants. Throwing money at the problem is not a solution - it's a life raft with a gaping hole in the side. Except instead of leaking air, it's leaking my money.

Typical right-wing approach, run the car into the ditch following ideology. When problems require real and creative solutions, only Democrats come up with them, it seems.

Wait wait.... throwing more money at a problem without fixing the root cause is now considered a "real and creative solution only democrats come up with"? :laugh: First, the republican administration did the exact same thing with GM before it went out of office. Now the democrats are doing the same thing, following the same failed path (but for different reasons, they want to pay back the unions).

No, my comment was far more general than that. Democrats - to pick 5 examples - created the SEC where there had been nothing but a vacuum of laissez-faire policy, created the FDIC (ditto), created the Medicare program, created social security, created the Peace Corps - on and on with bold and/or creative efforts, in contrast to Republicans.

Oh, Republicans have done a few 'bold' things - insofar as things like 'I can't believe they'd go to war like that' (and Democrats, with Republican agreement, did it in Vietnam).

I don't want to understate the creativity of the Watergate coverup or the Iran-Contra activities - but I mean legitimate programs good for the country.

The GM policy is not all that creative - but the Republican opposition to it does fit with their constant opposition to Democrats taking action.

And they don't understand the bastards on the right who put the nation second to a chance to strike a blow against the unions at GM in favor of the foreign car makers.

Perhaps those "bastards on the right" realize that the long term gain from destroying the cancer that is unionization is more beneficial to the country as a whole than floating GM for a few more months by pumping billions of our tax dollars into it.

I'm about to buy a new vehicle (an SUV), and I would have considered a GM vehicle, but not when it's largely government owned. I'll probably end up with an MDX or QX 56.

You are an ignorant ideologue, IMO. There's nothing I know to say in a post to help you with that problem. You are just clueless about labor issues IMO.

You offer the ideological road to the destruction of the middle class, the return to before FDR. We disagree. You are too far gone to discuss the issue IMO.

Like the Russians who cry for a return to Stalinism, you like what you like. You are misguided, thinking that you should avoid buying from the bailed-out GM.

How you think it's good for the economy not to buy from GM and support our nation's auto workers and the repayment of their borrowing and sustaining our auto industry -

I don't think you have any argument for it.

 

[SagaLore]

In another 100 years, I wonder which superpower is going to fight us because we're a communism. :Q

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: techs
Yes, just giving them money would be a much better idea than actually getting something back for the taxpayers.
/sarcasm

How about NOT giving them money? They make a crappy product that no one wants. Therefore, they should go under just like any other business that makes crappy products that no one wants. Throwing money at the problem is not a solution - it's a life raft with a gaping hole in the side. Except instead of leaking air, it's leaking my money.

Typical right-wing approach, run the car into the ditch following ideology. When problems require real and creative solutions, only Democrats come up with them, it seems.

Republicans just bitch about how they violate their ideology, and create slippery slopes predicting doom if the Democrats get their way.

So, we should just not give GM the assistance that will have payoffs for our society, and instead let them go out of business during the crisis, and let the economy suffer.

More poverty the right-wing can easily explain away as long as their ideology is followed. When we had children dying in unsafe factories living in poverty, they could defend that.

Because they don't understand the tradeoffs between the options, they think the GM bailout is some precedent for broad socialism, when it's not.

And they don't understand the bastards on the right who put the nation second to a chance to strike a blow against the unions at GM in favor of the foreign car makers.

Real and creative solution? lol....if UAW wasn't such big support of democrats, there wouldn't be a solution. The whole thing is nothing more than using tax payer's money to take care of the politically connected, ie, UAW. This new deal for the UAW is even sweeter than the one before.

Instead of the previous 39% in common stock, they are now getting 20% stock + $2.5B notes and $6.5 billion preferred equity that pays 9% dividend. UAW themselves don't have the confidence in the new GM and that's the reason they negotiated to get cash and notes upfront instead of common stock. And they get a seat on the new board to make all the big decisions too.

What does bondholder get you ask? Same measly 10% in common stock. Oh and the government and the tax payer now get the 70% common stock that UAW has such little confidence in.

You see the problem here? UAW gets more power in the new GM, less exposure to the performance of the company. Hmmmm?.Nice combination eh?

Real and creative solution eh? They day Obama and his admin propose a honest solution that's fair to all concerned is the day I believe this is really a solution for the people and not for the politically connected.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Typical right-wing approach, run the car into the ditch following ideology. When problems require real and creative solutions, only Democrats come up with them, it seems.

Republicans just bitch about how they violate their ideology, and create slippery slopes predicting doom if the Democrats get their way.

So, we should just not give GM the assistance that will have payoffs for our society, and instead let them go out of business during the crisis, and let the economy suffer.

More poverty the right-wing can easily explain away as long as their ideology is followed. When we had children dying in unsafe factories living in poverty, they could defend that.

Because they don't understand the tradeoffs between the options, they think the GM bailout is some precedent for broad socialism, when it's not.

And they don't understand the bastards on the right who put the nation second to a chance to strike a blow against the unions at GM in favor of the foreign car makers.

Holy democrat talking points!

If I remove all the bolded which is just sensationalism, there is nothing left. :Q

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
In another 100 years, I wonder which superpower is going to fight us because we're a communism. :Q

At this rate China's going to be a massive superpower. If the USA continues as it is, nobody's going to care. People will be moving out of the USA and migrating to other countries. Instead of everyone dreaming to come to the USA because its a land of "opportunity", people will leave it because its become a shiet hole of bad policy.... like certain eastern European countries that exist now... (also like Michigan with its UAW which Obama wants to prop up for no good reason at the determent of the nation, and to a certain degree california)

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Ktulu
Right, but you're blaming it on GM's products, which unless you've actually been paying attention is simply not the case anymore. The cars GM is producing and has down the pipeline are very good and can finally hold their own against the imports. GM was brought down by having idiots in management and bloodsucking unions.

I've driven their products. They're inferior. Anyone who has done a head-to-head comparison can't tell me that a Camry isn't a world apart from a Malibu. I just had a Malibu rental and it was terrible. But I digress. The sheep who had it beaten in to their heads that they had to "Buy American!" will claim there's nothing wrong with GM cars.

Whatever the cause, the fact is that GM has failed. The evidence is obvious: they need more money than lenders will give them. Their debts have been called in and they can't pay them. So, my question to you is: why should I pay the debts that they incurred and will incur in the future?

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Ktulu
Right, but you're blaming it on GM's products, which unless you've actually been paying attention is simply not the case anymore. The cars GM is producing and has down the pipeline are very good and can finally hold their own against the imports. GM was brought down by having idiots in management and bloodsucking unions.

I've driven their products. They're inferior. Anyone who has done a head-to-head comparison can't tell me that a Camry isn't a world apart from a Malibu. I just had a Malibu rental and it was terrible. But I digress. The sheep who had it beaten in to their heads that they had to "Buy American!" will claim there's nothing wrong with GM cars.

I am absolutely confident that no matter what car you drive you are the type of person that carries a heavy bias against anything domestic. So what you say does not surprise me one bit.

http://www.edmunds.com/insidel...paros/articleId=124091
http://www.motortrend.com/road...nd_road_test_data.html
http://money.cnn.com/galleries...ibu_review//index.html

The Malibu might not win every comparo or have everything everyone wants but it's a damn good car and I'll take the word over pros in the industry over some biased individual online. The same goes for many other GM's and Fords.

 

[Svnla]

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Crappy products that no one wants? You realize that Toyota lost MORE money than GM did this past quarter, right? Are they making crappy products that no one wants? It's idiots like you who keep spreading misinformation that makes a bad situation worse. It's obvious that you don't know jack about the situation yet you speak as if you are an expert. There is PLENTY of actual information available on the internet. Look it up and get back to us.

Facts = GM in its glory days had a market share (in the US) of over 50%....as of right now, it has about 20% (give and take) market share. Look like the customers know what they want.