Two Yankees pitchers under investigation for assaulting red sox grounds crewmember.

[Phokus]

It's funny, i wonder what zim said when clemens nailed piazza in the head, and the skankees are getting riled up over pedro's missed shot at garcia :disgust:

 

[Lager]

Since when did Zimmer become a lovable guy?!?!

 

[manly]

LMAO since when is it a display of restraint to toss an old man to the ground?

Sure Zim got roughly what you'd expect from smack-talking Pedro, but if you watch the replays, Pedro provoked the entire incidents and even took a good 6 paces towards Zimmer. There's no restraint there at all. Tim McCarver was dead right in saying the game would police itself if it wasn't for the DH.

I'm not saying Pedro should back down from anybody's crap, but getting into a shoving match with a dinosaur isn't exactly something to be proud off and then firmly pin on the old guy. Pedro's one of the best pitchers of our generation, but I really was hoping the Yankees could send an "enforcer" after his ass like they do in hockey.

Restraint would have been defending oneself and just pushing Zimmer away and laughing. Stepping up and yanking him by the neck to the ground is hardly holding back IMO.

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: manly
LMAO since when is it a display of restraint to toss an old man to the ground?

Sure Zim got roughly what you'd expect from smack-talking Pedro, but if you watch the replays, Pedro provoked the entire incidents and even took a good 6 paces towards Zimmer. There's no restraint there at all. Tim McCarver was dead right in saying the game would police itself if it wasn't for the DH.

I'm not saying Pedro should back down from anybody's crap, but getting into a shoving match with a dinosaur isn't exactly something to be proud off and then firmly pin on the old guy. Pedro's one of the best pitchers of our generation, but I really was hoping the Yankees could send an "enforcer" after his ass like they do in hockey.

Restraint would have been defending oneself and just pushing Zimmer away and laughing. Stepping up and yanking him by the neck to the ground is hardly holding back IMO.

it's a display of restraint to not beat his arse down, just like it's a display of restraint to not mock you mercilessly, you ignoramus. 😉

Pedro didn't start the fight, the old man did.

 

[manly]

Originally posted by: Amorphus

Originally posted by: manly
LMAO since when is it a display of restraint to toss an old man to the ground?

Sure Zim got roughly what you'd expect from smack-talking Pedro, but if you watch the replays, Pedro provoked the entire incidents and even took a good 6 paces towards Zimmer. There's no restraint there at all. Tim McCarver was dead right in saying the game would police itself if it wasn't for the DH.

I'm not saying Pedro should back down from anybody's crap, but getting into a shoving match with a dinosaur isn't exactly something to be proud off and then firmly pin on the old guy. Pedro's one of the best pitchers of our generation, but I really was hoping the Yankees could send an "enforcer" after his ass like they do in hockey.

Restraint would have been defending oneself and just pushing Zimmer away and laughing. Stepping up and yanking him by the neck to the ground is hardly holding back IMO.

it's a display of restraint to not beat his arse down, just like it's a display of restraint to not mock you mercilessly, you ignoramus. 😉

Pedro didn't start the fight, the old man did.

You're just killing me with your wit. I'm glad to know you'd probably kick an old lady to the ground if she weakly swung a bag at your leg.

Pedro started *everything* when he went headhunting, and then visibly threatened the Yankee dugout with additional headhunting. Go ahead and blame that on any Yankee players or coaches if you want to; I could not care less.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by: Amorphus

Originally posted by: manly
LMAO since when is it a display of restraint to toss an old man to the ground?

Sure Zim got roughly what you'd expect from smack-talking Pedro, but if you watch the replays, Pedro provoked the entire incidents and even took a good 6 paces towards Zimmer. There's no restraint there at all. Tim McCarver was dead right in saying the game would police itself if it wasn't for the DH.

I'm not saying Pedro should back down from anybody's crap, but getting into a shoving match with a dinosaur isn't exactly something to be proud off and then firmly pin on the old guy. Pedro's one of the best pitchers of our generation, but I really was hoping the Yankees could send an "enforcer" after his ass like they do in hockey.

Restraint would have been defending oneself and just pushing Zimmer away and laughing. Stepping up and yanking him by the neck to the ground is hardly holding back IMO.

it's a display of restraint to not beat his arse down, just like it's a display of restraint to not mock you mercilessly, you ignoramus. 😉

Pedro didn't start the fight, the old man did.

LOL. I'll also show my restraint, just like Pedro did, and just point out the flaws of your own words.
You answered your own comment when you said "Restraint would have been defending oneself and just pushing Zimmer away and laughing". That's exactly what he did!!!!! He also got the rest of the world to laugh with him. I don't know what replay you watched, but Zimmer charged Pedro, not the other way around. Pedro was walking from the dugout (youc an construe that as '6 paces towards Zimmer' all you want) and was basically standing still when that tub of lard (who for having both kneecaps replaced runs pretty damn fast) charging him like a bull. Not restraining himself would have been after shooing him away, going back over to him and beating him down some more.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Well I think everyone can agree that Pedro is an arrogant and an ass (which may be a good thing for a pitcher). But Zimmer is just a freaking idiot. I hope he gets suspended or fired. No coach, manager, or member of the front office should attack a PLAYER of the opposing team. At least when Pedro knocked Zimmer down, he walked away.

In the end, I think the Yankees look worse than the Red Sox, IMO. Their coach attacks Pedro and a couple of their players attacks a groundskeeper. If the latter didn't happen, then I think it would have been more even.

 

[PlatinumGold]

you talk to ANY cop, what Pedro did when Zim charged him was SELF DEFENSE, what preceeded the PHYSICAL attack is NOT relevant.

Zimmer had NO business attacking a player.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by: manly

Originally posted by: Amorphus

Originally posted by: manly
LMAO since when is it a display of restraint to toss an old man to the ground?

Sure Zim got roughly what you'd expect from smack-talking Pedro, but if you watch the replays, Pedro provoked the entire incidents and even took a good 6 paces towards Zimmer. There's no restraint there at all. Tim McCarver was dead right in saying the game would police itself if it wasn't for the DH.

I'm not saying Pedro should back down from anybody's crap, but getting into a shoving match with a dinosaur isn't exactly something to be proud off and then firmly pin on the old guy. Pedro's one of the best pitchers of our generation, but I really was hoping the Yankees could send an "enforcer" after his ass like they do in hockey.

Restraint would have been defending oneself and just pushing Zimmer away and laughing. Stepping up and yanking him by the neck to the ground is hardly holding back IMO.

it's a display of restraint to not beat his arse down, just like it's a display of restraint to not mock you mercilessly, you ignoramus. 😉

Pedro didn't start the fight, the old man did.

You're just killing me with your wit. I'm glad to know you'd probably kick an old lady to the ground if she weakly swung a bag at your leg.

Pedro started *everything* when he went headhunting, and then visibly threatened the Yankee dugout with additional headhunting. Go ahead and blame that on any Yankee players or coaches if you want to; I could not care less.

And Karim Garcia wasn't to blame for not STFU about 'getting hit' and just taking his base and getting over it. Watch the replay of him supposedly getting hit. If anything, the ball hit his bat. If the ball hit his shoulder, there's no way in hell it would have bounced the way it did. After the double play, he and Posada started with Pedro, not the other way around, hence, Pedro barked back and motioned towards hit head. I love how some people are so closed minded (or maybe they're just that stupid) and can't see both sides of the story even when it's layed out plainly right there in front of them.
Now, back on topic, this thread isn't about Pedro, it's about Garcia again wanting trouble, along with Nelson, and assaulting the Sox bullpen employee. There are plenty of people in the bullpen that could have come to Nelson's aid if he needed it, Garcia had NO BUSINESS hopping the bullpen fence and getting involved. He wanted troube, now he's got it. I hope they both get what's coming to them, humiliate them with arrest and charge them with assault.

 

[Argo]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Well I think everyone can agree that Pedro is an arrogant and an ass (which may be a good thing for a pitcher). But Zimmer is just a freaking idiot. I hope he gets suspended or fired. No coach, manager, or member of the front office should attack a PLAYER of the opposing team. At least when Pedro knocked Zimmer down, he walked away.

In the end, I think the Yankees look worse than the Red Sox, IMO. Their coach attacks Pedro and a couple of their players attacks a groundskeeper. If the latter didn't happen, then I think it would have been more even.

How about Pedro hitting Garcia on purpose? And then if that wasn't enough - he points to Posada and makes a gesture saying that he'll "hit him in the head". And if that wasn't enough - Manny runs towards Clemens with a bat in his hand. On a pitch that wasn't even close! And before you say anything - your own manager admitted that the pitch wasn't "that close". It's pretty interesting how you red sox fans leave tose details out. What's even sicker - than most of you guys think Pedro was right in throwing at Garcia's head.

Yes - Zimmer was totally wrong in charging the field. But don't make Pedro look like a victim here. At least Zimmer had enough decency and manhood to appologize. So far I don't hear about Pedro or Manny doing that.

As for the bullpen situation - nothign has been proven yet. Yankee pitchers swear that the guy attacked them. The groundskeeper says they attacked him first. Most likely the truth lies in between and both were guilty.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Well I think everyone can agree that Pedro is an arrogant and an ass (which may be a good thing for a pitcher). But Zimmer is just a freaking idiot. I hope he gets suspended or fired. No coach, manager, or member of the front office should attack a PLAYER of the opposing team. At least when Pedro knocked Zimmer down, he walked away.

In the end, I think the Yankees look worse than the Red Sox, IMO. Their coach attacks Pedro and a couple of their players attacks a groundskeeper. If the latter didn't happen, then I think it would have been more even.

Zimmer is already on the hotseat with Steinbrenner, I'm sure the embarassment over this dibocle won't do anything to put him back in the bosses good graces.

 

[Tom]

You know, Zimmer used to manage the Red Sox, you'd think some of you Red Sox fans would have a little more respect for him, in terms of all the insults about his age or beauty.

Plus he was knocked out for two weeks from being beaned back in 1953, it's understandable he would be upset with Martinez' apparent threat to hit some one in the head, ie pointing at his head.

Martinez wasn't facing any threat from Zimmer, throwing him to the ground was just a bush league punk thing to do, as was the pointing at his head.

And the pitch that Clemens threw wasn't even close to hitting Ramirez, it was almost a strike; there was no call for Ramirez to intisigate the brawl.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
You know, Zimmer used to manage the Red Sox, you'd think some of you Red Sox fans would have a little more respect for him, in terms of all the insults about his age or beauty.

Plus he was knocked out for two weeks from being beaned back in 1953, it's understandable he would be upset with Martinez' apparent threat to hit some one in the head, ie pointing at his head.

Martinez wasn't facing any threat from Zimmer, throwing him to the ground was just a bush league punk thing to do, as was the pointing at his head.

And the pitch that Clemens threw wasn't even close to hitting Ramirez, it was almost a strike; there was no call for Ramirez to intisigate the brawl.

if he is going to be so sensitive, i'm wondering what he said to Clemens when Clemens hit Mike Piazza in the HEAD during the WS.

Pedro hasn't hit ANYONE in the head in this series.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Well I think everyone can agree that Pedro is an arrogant and an ass (which may be a good thing for a pitcher). But Zimmer is just a freaking idiot. I hope he gets suspended or fired. No coach, manager, or member of the front office should attack a PLAYER of the opposing team. At least when Pedro knocked Zimmer down, he walked away.

In the end, I think the Yankees look worse than the Red Sox, IMO. Their coach attacks Pedro and a couple of their players attacks a groundskeeper. If the latter didn't happen, then I think it would have been more even.

How about Pedro hitting Garcia on purpose? And then if that wasn't enough - he points to Posada and makes a gesture saying that he'll "hit him in the head". And if that wasn't enough - Manny runs towards Clemens with a bat in his hand. On a pitch that wasn't even close! And before you say anything - your own manager admitted that the pitch wasn't "that close". It's pretty interesting how you red sox fans leave tose details out. What's even sicker - than most of you guys think Pedro was right in throwing at Garcia's head.

Yes - Zimmer was totally wrong in charging the field. But don't make Pedro look like a victim here. At least Zimmer had enough decency and manhood to appologize. So far I don't hear about Pedro or Manny doing that.

As for the bullpen situation - nothign has been proven yet. Yankee pitchers swear that the guy attacked them. The groundskeeper says they attacked him first. Most likely the truth lies in between and both were guilty.

I already said that Pedro was an ass. I've already said that Manny is stupid in another thread. I'm not a Red Sox fan, even though my profile says I'm in Boston. I've only been there for 2 months.

Those actions that Pedro & Manny do not, IMO, equate to ATTACKING other people. Don Zimmer should be fined, suspended, and then fired. NO member of the management or coaching staff should attack a member of the opposing team. I don't care that Pedro is an ass and pointed at his head. It's fairly obvious that Zimmer, who has a freaking metal plate in his head, let his emotions get out of control. He should face the consequences of that.

And I don't know HOW you can defend Nelson ATTACKING a groundskeeper.

So we have these incidents:
1. Pedro hitting Rivera near the head
2. Rivera sliding into Walker
3. Manny thinking (stupidly) that he was almost hit
4. Pedro pointing at his head and everyone screaming at each other
5. Zimmer attacking Pedro
6. Nelson attacking a groundskeeper with Rivera later joining in

I haven't paid attention to the news today, so correct me if I'm wrong in any of these. I don't know about you, but physically attacking someone is by far the worst thing on this list.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
You know, Zimmer used to manage the Red Sox, you'd think some of you Red Sox fans would have a little more respect for him, in terms of all the insults about his age or beauty.

Plus he was knocked out for two weeks from being beaned back in 1953, it's understandable he would be upset with Martinez' apparent threat to hit some one in the head, ie pointing at his head.

Martinez wasn't facing any threat from Zimmer, throwing him to the ground was just a bush league punk thing to do, as was the pointing at his head.

And the pitch that Clemens threw wasn't even close to hitting Ramirez, it was almost a strike; there was no call for Ramirez to intisigate the brawl.

if he is going to be so sensitive, i'm wondering what he said to Clemens when Clemens hit Mike Piazza in the HEAD during the WS.

Pedro hasn't hit ANYONE in the head in this series.

I think Piazza was hit in the head in an interleague game before the AS Game. The WS incident was when Clemens threw the bat at Piazza.

 

[Argo]

Pedro hasn't hit ANYONE in the head in this series.

Pedro has a history of hitting batters when things go wrong. He's always hit Yankees. In a game this series he hit both soriano and jeter back to back. Both of them had to be taken away in an ambulance. He wanted Karim garcia on first base. But instead of walking him - he decided to push "intimidate" button and hit him. Especially after Garcia knocked a run in earlier.

 

[Johnbear007]

who cares

 

[Tom]

"if he is going to be so sensitive, i'm wondering what he said to Clemens when Clemens hit Mike Piazza in the HEAD during the WS."

For all I or you know, Zimmer might have have punched him out in the clubhouse..

but that doesn't have anything to do with Martinez' apparently threatening to deliberately bean someone, the issue isn't whether or not Martinez actually beans someone, it's the implication that he might that Zimmer was reacting to.

I think it was an honorable thing for Zimmer to challenge Martinez on that, the dishonorable behavior was Martinez' making the threat.

 

[Argo]

RabidMongoose, for bullpen incident - nothing is proven yet. It's just Nelson's word against groundskeeper willie's. As I said - both probably had a lot to do with the fight. I doubt either of them would jump on the other for no apparent reason.

As for Zim - he didn't even get a chance to hit Pedro. You're making it sound like he punched him or something. He didn't even get close to him, before Pedro body slammed him. I don't know about you, but if a 72 year old man comes screaming at me - I'll probably just step aside. Or bear hug him and try to calm him down.

 

[Argo]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"if he is going to be so sensitive, i'm wondering what he said to Clemens when Clemens hit Mike Piazza in the HEAD during the WS."

For all I or you know, Zimmer might have have punched him out in the clubhouse..

but that doesn't have anything to do with Martinez' apparently threatening to deliberately bean someone, the issue isn't whether or not Martinez actually beans someone, it's the implication that he might that Zimmer was reacting to.

I think it was an honorable thing for Zimmer to challenge Martinez on that, the dishonorable behavior was Martinez' making the threat.

Absolutely!!! Zimmer was just protecting his players. For all he knew Pedro was gonna hit Posada in the head.

 

[Tom]

Rabidmongoose-

I agree with almost your entire post, except that the "attack" Zimmer made on Martinez wasn't anything unusual during a baseball melee.

If Martinez didn't want to take part in it, why was he out on the field during the melee ?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Argo
RabidMongoose, for bullpen incident - nothing is proven yet. It's just Nelson's word against groundskeeper willie's. As I said - both probably had a lot to do with the fight. I doubt either of them would jump on the other for no apparent reason.

As for Zim - he didn't even get a chance to hit Pedro. You're making it sound like he punched him or something. He didn't even get close to him, before Pedro body slammed him. I don't know about you, but if a 72 year old man comes screaming at me - I'll probably just step aside. Or bear hug him and try to calm him down.

Aren't there two security officers who support the groundskeeper? I would trust their view.

From the replays, it looks as if Zimmer actually tried to punch Pedro with his left hand. If a 72 year old man or a 16 year old kid came screaming at me and throws a punch at me - I don't know what I would do. But I CERTAINLY wouldn't let them punch me in the face or hurt me in any way. In fact, I think what Pedro did was OK - he just knocked him onto the ground and backed away. If you step aside, he'll still come at you. However, I think we look at it more harshly since Pedro grabbed Zimmer's head and Zimmer is 72 years old.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
Rabidmongoose-

I agree with almost your entire post, except that the "attack" Zimmer made on Martinez wasn't anything unusual during a baseball melee.

If Martinez didn't want to take part in it, why was he out on the field during the melee ?

I agree, Pedro should have stayed inside of the dugout. However, I would guess that since his entire team was out on the field, he would be out there, too. Pedro is an idiot and an ass. However, that doesn't make his action in this case worse than what Zimmer did - rush out onto the field straight towards Pedro and attempt a first punch. It is completely unusual, wrong, and idiotic for a member of the coaching or management staff to attack another player.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"if he is going to be so sensitive, i'm wondering what he said to Clemens when Clemens hit Mike Piazza in the HEAD during the WS."

For all I or you know, Zimmer might have have punched him out in the clubhouse..

but that doesn't have anything to do with Martinez' apparently threatening to deliberately bean someone, the issue isn't whether or not Martinez actually beans someone, it's the implication that he might that Zimmer was reacting to.

I think it was an honorable thing for Zimmer to challenge Martinez on that, the dishonorable behavior was Martinez' making the threat.

there has ALWAYS been a HUGE line between what is HONORABLE/DISHONORABLE and what is LEGAL/ILLEGAL.

It is LEGAL for a baseball pitcher to unintentionally hit a batter, it is ILLEGAL for a baseball coach to PHYSICALLY attack a Baseball player.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Argo
RabidMongoose, for bullpen incident - nothing is proven yet. It's just Nelson's word against groundskeeper willie's. As I said - both probably had a lot to do with the fight. I doubt either of them would jump on the other for no apparent reason.

As for Zim - he didn't even get a chance to hit Pedro. You're making it sound like he punched him or something. He didn't even get close to him, before Pedro body slammed him. I don't know about you, but if a 72 year old man comes screaming at me - I'll probably just step aside. Or bear hug him and try to calm him down.

Aren't there two security officers who support the groundskeeper? I would trust their view.

From the replays, it looks as if Zimmer actually tried to punch Pedro with his left hand. If a 72 year old man or a 16 year old kid came screaming at me and throws a punch at me - I don't know what I would do. But I CERTAINLY wouldn't let them punch me in the face or hurt me in any way. In fact, I think what Pedro did was OK - he just knocked him onto the ground and backed away. If you step aside, he'll still come at you. However, I think we look at it more harshly since Pedro grabbed Zimmer's head and Zimmer is 72 years old.

hmmm, in the article i read it said 2 POLICE officers not SECURITY officers.