tweaktown review GTX660Ti

[Vesku]

Driver issues are mostly anecdotes, which don't mean much in terms of reasonable decision making. The fact that a GTS 550 kept getting stuck at 2D clocks isn't going to affect my decision on whether to buy a 600 series card.

If we operate on anecdotes then we get into silly situations. For example I might say the following if I weigh single data points too heaviliy:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/355139-33-grey-screen-intial-game-launch

OMG a bug with a NVIDIA driver, quick to the FUDmobile we must post this singular datapoint as if it's a real and compelling issue that should be considered when people purchase a GPU!

-----
However if you desire to use singular datapoints regardless of the merits, carry on.

 

[SickBeast]

Driver issues are mostly anecdotes, which don't mean much in terms of reasonable decision making. The fact that a GTS 550 kept getting stuck at 2D clocks isn't going to affect my decision on whether to buy a 600 series card.

If we operate on anecdotes then we get into silly situations. For example I might say the following if I weigh single data points too heaviliy:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/355139-33-grey-screen-intial-game-launch

OMG a bug with a NVIDIA driver, quick to the FUDmobile we must post this singular datapoint as if it's a real and compelling issue that should be considered when people purchase a GPU!

-----
However if you desire to use singular datapoints regardless of the merits, carry on.

Mostly anecdotes? Do you have any idea how many people were affected by the AMD sleep issue? It was a total PITA for a lot of people and it took AMD several tries to fix it with the drivers.

This is far more serious than a single game crashing. This is 2D Windows for Pete's sake. People need to get work done!

 

[Vesku]

Many people had the "Driver unresponsive" loop with Nvidia drivers for several versions. Nvidia killed cards with a driver release. AMD had funny squares in one version of recent drivers when using AA with particular cards. Nvidia cards have occasionally had waves of getting stuck in 2D clocks when using multiple monitors. It happens, it's mostly anecdotal and hard to measure. At least some quantification needs to occur for it to be a reasonable basis for purchasing decisions.

An example is hard drive failures, there is often an anecdotal semi-superstitious avoidance of brands based on individual drive failures. Only in rare cases have they been justified and backed up by evidence, the IBM era desk(death)star deaths were eventually tracked well enough by owners that they were able to properly point the blame at the drives having an abnormally high failure rate. However, more often someone will avoid a brand simply because they happened to get one of the small percentage of drives that will fail earlier than expected. Even though as a whole that drive batch had a normal expected failure rate.

This is a response similar to superstition, some evolutionary psychologists have posited that humans behave this way because it doesn't usually have negative consequences and can sometimes have positive consequences.

http://mindfulhack.blogspot.com/2008/09/evolutionary-psychology.html

 

[AnandThenMan]

There is no way that there is any difference in 2D quality with today's cards.

Not true. I notice a difference between driver versions in desktop mode, often right away. Sometimes slightly worse, sometimes slightly better but it is real. Usually if I let Windows install the default driver, text quality especially is relatively poor.

 

[SickBeast]

Not true. I notice a difference between driver versions in desktop mode, often right away. Sometimes slightly worse, sometimes slightly better but it is real. Usually if I let Windows install the default driver, text quality especially is relatively poor.

BTW why do you call yourself AnandThenMan and not AnandTheMan??

 

[AnandThenMan]

You cling to that if it reinforces your beliefs.

 

[AnandThenMan]

BTW why do you call yourself AnandThenMan and not AnandTheMan??

You probably would not believe me if I told you. But it's like this. And then.....and then. No more and then! It's a play off of that. :sneaky:

 

[toyota]

There is no way that there is any difference in 2D quality with today's cards. It's a 100% digital connection. Back in the day, nVidia used to use crappy components for their analog connections, so ATi and Matrox were superior, but this is going back a *long* time, back when most of us were on crappy CRT displays and such.

I notice no difference whatsover between my GTX 460 and my AMD 7850 in terms of visual quality, 2D or 3D. The only difference I notice is driver quality, with nVidia being noticeably better.

CORRECT

Not true. I notice a difference between driver versions in desktop mode, often right away. Sometimes slightly worse, sometimes slightly better but it is real. Usually if I let Windows install the default driver, text quality especially is relatively poor.

INCORRECT


http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1694755


The results were as we’d expect: There is no difference in image quality based on the brand of card you buy. The days of 2D image quality being a function of particular graphics cards are long gone for most people. When CRTs were popular, it was something that mattered as the quality of the RAMDAC controlled the quality of the analog VGA output. Thus different cards, even with the same chipset, could potentially produce different 2D image quality.

However LCDs and DVI have changed all that. The signal is fully digital from the OS, to the card, to the monitor right up until the individual sub pixels are finally lit up. This removes any quality differences from card outputs, since they are outputting a completely accurate digital signal. The only time they change anything is when instructed to by a change to their LUTs from the user, OS, application, and so on.

What that all means is the conclusion is pretty clear: There are many good reasons to buy team green or team red, but 2D image quality is not one of them. They are precisely the same.

 

[AnandThenMan]

They don't know what they are talking about. Hardware does not exist in a vacuum it needs software to make it tick. And that software can and does affect signal output. There may be no discernible difference between vendors, but that's a different issue.

 

[Lonbjerg]

They don't know what they are talking about. Hardware does not exist in a vacuum it needs software to make it tick. And that software can and does affect signal output. There may be no discernible difference between vendors, but that's a different issue.

You might want to read this:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1694755

Unless false claims are your "thingy"..

 

[AnandThenMan]

You might want to read this:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1694755

Unless false claims are your "thingy"..

Did you actually read that thread at any point? You'll notice there are people there that also notice differences in 2D (and specifically text clarity) between cards. Also the author there claims that an LCD monitor is superior to a CRT for color reproduction, which is just wrong. The run of the mill LCD units we use now cannot hold a candle to a good CRT in this regard, but that is what the author there claims. The highest end LCD's now come close. He also claims that the CRT was inferior for color reproduction because the blue guns inherent limitations. This is normally true, but non linear, perceptually based curves corrected this.

But I digress, people will believe what they want to believe. I trust my own eyes and what dozens of people that do professional graphics work have told me countless times.

 

[3DVagabond]

It can't be, it wasn't meant to be and it will not be faster than the 7970. It was launched as a direct competition to the 7950 while being 10-20$ more expensive and outperforming the aforementioned card. The 680 was launched as direct competition to the 7970 at a similar price while outperforming it. The 660Ti will be launched at a similar or slightly higher price than the 7870 while outperforming it. This is the logic that drives NV business. If the prices don't come down on these NV cards it means they are selling, again simple logic here. If AMD lowers the prices to an extent that it effectively kills some of their own cards (7870 at $280 is dead when you can buy 7950 at around $300 and 7850 at around $240) it means that they have trouble selling their parts.

Remind me again why any of this matters to us? All that matters is if I have $200 to pay who has the best performance. Same goes for $100, $150, $250 and so on.

Nobody is arguing that nVidia doesn't market their products better than AMD does.

The marketplace is fluid. It doesn't matter if the GK104 was originally designed as a midrange part. It's nVidia's high end this generation. It doesn't matter that the 680 was released at a lower price than the 7970, it's not anymore. The bang/$ @ $400, when the 670 was released has changed. You can now pick up 7970's for that price on sale. The 7950 has crept up in price a bit (I guess they were selling too many? ) to $320. Which is still better value than the 7970 or anything that nVidia makes. The 7870 was terrible bang/$ at $350 because of the 7850 for $100 less. People still cling to that even though the 7870 is now available for $250.

If the 660ti comes out and is better bang/$ than anything AMD offers, I'm sure we'll see AMD react. Good for us. :thumbsup:

 

[Scoobyboo]

Could you guys give me some advise please?
Would it be wise to cancel my R7850 OC order (on backorder, 3 weeks in and still no clue about delivery date), and wait it out to see what the 660 (Ti?) range brings us?

(using a stupid Gforce 9600GT in the meantime :'()

 

[lehtv]

660 Ti is probably going to cost $300, it'll compete more with 7870 and 7950. I'd expect the non-ti 660 to be priced close to 7850.

 

[Scoobyboo]

I see...
But I'm already paying 240 euro (around 290$) for a MSI Power Edition OC R7850.
So maybe a 660 Ti won't be that much more expensive :hmm:

Perhaps I should just cancel my order and see what the near future brings...

 

[Vesku]

Is there no source available to you with better delivery time on the 7850? Having to wait that long sounds frustrating.

I agree with cancelling your order and seeing what choices in your price range look like in a couple of weeks.

 

[Crap Daddy]

Remind me again why any of this matters to us? All that matters is if I have $200 to pay who has the best performance. Same goes for $100, $150, $250 and so on.

It was an answer to a post. I remind you that this is a thread about the suspected performance and pricing of the 660Ti and not a thread about the best bang/buck for a specific card and vendor in a specific market (USA). For example in Germany prices for the HD7970 vary between 380 and 618 Euro while the 680 is sold between 420 and 620. The 670 is between 350 and 420 while the 7950 is between 290 and 345 Euro. There are tens of models and vendors some more reputable (asking more) and some with lower reputation (asking less).

I'm pretty sure that very few buyers undertake a thorough task of comparing features, performance, price, brand and decide which suits them better. If you want a fast way of determining what card is performing better you just check some reviews on the reference card, get a picture and then decide on the model and how much do you want to spend. On the other hand the majority of people will always think that higher price means better quality.

So these fantastic deals mean nothing to the broader picture. I will give you a personal example. I was looking for a cheap decent card for my second machine. I was set for a price around 100 Euro. The only opportunity came in the form of a Palit GTX560 SE at 105 while the direct competition, the 7770 had the lowest price of 130 Euro. Does this mean that the 560 SE is the best for the buck in that category? No. Because it was just one brand sold at one retailer where I live for that price. Others are selling the card at a similar price as the 7770 where obviously the AMD card becomes the better option.

 

[Arzachel]

I see...
But I'm already paying 240 euro (around 290$) for a MSI Power Edition OC R7850.
So maybe a 660 Ti won't be that much more expensive :hmm:

Perhaps I should just cancel my order and see what the near future brings...

The 660Ti is most likely going to cost 300$ + VAT + "Not being in the US" tax in Europe. Closer to the 7950 and 7870 instead of the 7850. I'd wait for the 660ti to launch regardless of whether it'll fit your budget or not, you might see some nice deals on Nvidia's last gen cards or some deals on AMD cards in response to the launch.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

...The only opportunity came in the form of a Palit GTX560 SE at 105 while the direct competition, the 7770 had the lowest price of 130 Euro. Does this mean that the 560 SE is the best for the buck in that category? No. Because it was just one brand sold at one retailer where I live for that price. Others are selling the card at a similar price as the 7770 where obviously the AMD card becomes the better option.

Markets change and values change with it. It's all about the approach. If you're saying "I want a modern card with DX 11.1 between $100 & $150.", the 7770 and 7750 are your only options. Nvidia doesn't have anything there. If you're saying "For $100-$150, I want the best bang for the buck", that opens you up to older tech and used cards. These will have a much better value.

 

[Pixelpusher6]

Hey all, first post on these forums. Not sure why it's taken me so long considering I've been visiting this site / forum for over 10 years. Anyway I think the GTX660Ti shows some of the problems of having GK104 fill so many rolls. This card is a no go at $300 regardless if some Nvidia proponents buy it, the hardware is just too weak at that price point. I think it would be much better positioned at $250. There is going to be a huge gap in Nvidia's product line right at one of the most important segments - mid-range right in between GK104 and GK107. I don't understand why Nvidia would cripple memory bandwidth which it doesn't have in spades, when they could have just lowered the clock-speed. Since the cards don't allow voltage adjustment they could have just set the clock-speed to a level where even overclocked it won't be competing with a GTX670. Originally I had planned to get the GTX660Ti but it didn't seem like Nvidia had a GPU designed for the mid-range, so I sprung for a GTX670 (AMD was not price competitive when I bought it) and I'm glad I did now. If this is Nvidia's strategy moving forward with GK1*4 as high end they are going to have to beef up GK1*7 to pick up the slack. Who knows maybe Nvidia will release a consumer GK110 card and their chips will fall back into their respective market segments.

 

[Crap Daddy]

This card is a no go at $300 regardless if some Nvidia proponents buy it, the hardware is just too weak at that price point. I think it would be much better positioned at $250. There is going to be a huge gap in Nvidia's product line right at one of the most important segments - mid-range right in between GK104 and GK107

All this remains to be seen, whether it's too weak for $300 or if they will ask less. AMD doesn't think it's too weak, hence the BIOS update for reference 7950. Between GK104 and GK 107 in September, at last, GK106 is rumored to surface in the form of 660 and 650Ti. Better late than never?

 

[B-Riz]

The 660ti for $299 and 2 gig memory is a fail.

$249? Still a fail. As 7870 will price drop and that has a wider memory bus.

7850 might drop too and eat the $190 - $210 price point lunch all day long.

If you have $300 to spend on a vid card, another gig of memory for $10 - $30 is nothing but a good value proposition.

 

[MBentz]

Any idea what time the other reviews are going to hit?

 

[Scoobyboo]

The 660Ti is most likely going to cost 300$ + VAT + "Not being in the US" tax in Europe. Closer to the 7950 and 7870 instead of the 7850. I'd wait for the 660ti to launch regardless of whether it'll fit your budget or not, you might see some nice deals on Nvidia's last gen cards or some deals on AMD cards in response to the launch.

Ahh... thank you for the advise

 

[Pixelpusher6]

The 660ti for $299 and 2 gig memory is a fail.

$249? Still a fail. As 7870 will price drop and that has a wider memory bus.

7850 might drop too and eat the $190 - $210 price point lunch all day long.

If you have $300 to spend on a vid card, another gig of memory for $10 - $30 is nothing but a good value proposition.

While I tend to agree about the $299, I think it would sell pretty well at $249. The lowest price for a 7950 on newegg is $350, or $330 with mail in rebate which whose to say there won't be MIR with the GTX 660Ti, still you have to lay out $350 to begin with and you might get that $20 back 12 weeks later if at all. In general I think it's safe to say the 7950 is priced at $350 right now. Still I would pay $50 more for 7950 for that much more performance, and at $280-300 I'd rather take a 7870 over the 660Ti also due to 256-bit memory bus. I don't think 24 ROPs and 192-bit memory bus belong in an upper mid-range product. What next is the 660 going to have 16 ROPs and 128-bit bus with DD3 VRAM?